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I assume all frontline NHS staff have to take daily PCR tests? It seems stupid to insist on a negative PCR test for every hospital admission if the staff aren't subject to the same.
Dunno about now but the unit I worked in we were never tested as a matter of policy - 9 months ago I left there. I never had a single test at work even when there was an outbreak on the ward. I could never fathom the reason why. Our unit tested patients twice weekly but never staff, the sister unit tested staff weekly but never patients ( one rehab, one psychiatric, same building)
We also were told to turn off the test app thingy at work and not to treat work contracts as contacts despite being exposed to known covid all day but outside work any pings on the app and we were told to isolate
made no sense to me as in both situations I was wearing the same type of mask
I could never fathom the reason why.
Was it simply because they didn’t want staff testing positive and having to isolate ?
Did you ever do a lateral flow out of curiosity?
NHS England has been testing twice per week for well over a year, next week it’s daily for patient contact staff. Which of course is impossible without LFT kits. Patients are LFT tested not PCR I believe on admission.
My wife has been PCR tested on every admission to Raigmore in Inverness these past few weeks, hence my question.
Did you ever do a lateral flow out of curiosity?
I did a PCR once because I wanted to go to a funeral with vulnerable folk there. work cocked it up and i didn't get the result in time so I couldn't go
Never done an LFT, thats the only time I have tested
We were using pcrs at work not LFTs.
Staff are supposed to test twice a week, either LFT or LAMP. There is no one monitoring compliance though. Some wards are better than others. We are now allowing staff with positive household members to treat most patients as long as they are doing daily LFTs.
My wife has been PCR tested on every admission to Raigmore in Inverness these past few weeks, hence my question.
Ah! Maybe I’m mistaken then.
Drac - I think the approach to testing has been very different in Scotland in the NHS. Unless its changed since I left LFTs were never used.
At present, issuing higher grade masks (FFP2/3) to all NHS staff and banning office sharing whilst we are in the current Omicron surge would be a more scientific and sensible approach, not threatening dismissal for being unvaccinated. For a highly contagious virus which is primarily spread by exhalation and inhalation, where vaccines largely don’t stop spread and LFTs only pick up higher viral titres and not necessarily before someone has managed to infect someone else - patient or staff, why wouldn’t you? Omicron is so contagious that surgical masks are next to useless and cloth even worse. Only wear a higher grade mask here to reduce my risk of getting or giving it and particularLy to reduce the risk of a higher viral load.
The NHS are still issuing the same old IPC guidance, thinking daily LFTs are the answer (not even recommending throat swabbing for LFTs) and then wondering why Omicron is rampant through staff and services are struggling - it’s not because a few staff are not vaccinated its because staff have the wrong PPE and sharing poorly ventilated spaces. Javid has unnecessarily painted himself in to a corner with his threats.
Would it cause many people to leave the NHS? I don’t think so. When the NYPD introduced mandatory vax they has around 1200 threaten to quit over it. When it came to the crunch the number of people that actually quit was single digits.
Would it cause many people to leave the NHS?
About 5% from conversations with colleagues. These potential leavers are mostly a mixture of band 2 to band 4 staff (ie. bloody essential) that are fed up with the poor conditions anyway. They can go and earn the same amount, or more, in lots of other settings without the barrage of abuse and increasingly unreasonable demands.
I very much doubt 5% but the problem is its concentrated in certain areas both geographically and within specialties
@tjagain Greater Glasgow NHS Out of Hours are encouraging but not requiring all staff to lft twice a week.
irc - its 9 months since I left but I note "encourage" not "require" Personally I see little point in doing LFTs as the false negative rate is so high
I very much doubt 5% but the problem is its concentrated in certain areas both geographically and within specialties
Possibly correct; I can only comment on my direct interactions with those in the same Trust, although we work across a few, similar, specialities.
Our Trust isn't one of the better ones. We are already working at close to 20% fewer staff than specified... not much wriggle-room left!
LFTs are twice per week for us btw. Never checked up on, although I think most of us are keeping up with them.
LFTs twice a week in the trust I work for. We came close to running out of tests early midweek but I understand that's sorted now.
I thought it was only knuckle draggers that didn't want the vax. Apparently it isn't, but they must be a knob anyway...
Same for our health dept. Boosters mandated.
Also... Proof of Vax before going to a club or bar.... But not needed if you're going to an afl game with say, 5000 others. I would say "you can't make this 5hit up". But apparently you can.
Knuckle draggers and people with university degrees are not mutually exclusive.
Sacking NHS staff for being vax hesitant is mental.
Arguably NHS staff being Vax hesitant in the middle of a global pandemic is mental.
In the case of the consultant he is telling a bunch of vaccination and public health specialists they are wrong, on national TV, challenging a politician with complex medical questions instead of his own profession
I would argue if the GMC don't pull him in for an interview without coffee they aren't fit for purpose
At present, issuing higher grade masks (FFP2/3) to all NHS staff and banning office sharing whilst we are in the current Omicron surge would be a more scientific and sensible approach, not threatening dismissal for being unvaccinated
FFP3 masks in all clinical areas for all staff and everywhere for anyone with increased risk score (immunocompromised etc). Surgical masks mandatory on site for all staff and mandatory in the buildings for everyone. Shared offices are avoided where possible and where not possible the perspex screens are still in situ from previous waves. Don't know about other trusts but I expect their measures are similar.
Interesting that he's a consultant anaesthetist because i know a few medical professionals and the only one who has refused a vaccine is a...
...consultant anaesthetist!
Maybe there has been a scare story on the Anaesthetist-track World forum?
FFP3 masks in all clinical areas for all staff and everywhere for anyone with increased risk score (immunocompromised etc). Surgical masks mandatory on site for all staff and mandatory in the buildings for everyone. Shared offices are avoided where possible and where not possible the perspex screens are still in situ from previous waves. Don’t know about other trusts but I expect their measures are similar.
FFP3 for procedures of aerosol techniques or a dynamic risk assessment by staff, FFP2 for moving around, close contact, when sat down socially distancing, screens and open windows.
I would argue if the GMC don’t pull him in for an interview without coffee they aren’t fit for purpose
Not a chance and it would be badly wrong to do so. thought crime? come off it
Interesting that he’s a consultant anaesthetist because i know a few medical professionals and the only one who has refused a vaccine is a…
…consultant anaesthetist!
Maybe there has been a scare story on the Anaesthetist-track World forum?
There is unfortunately no such equivalent to STW for Anaesthetists - although given that most of them only talk about coffee and road bikes they would fit right in here.
I know quite a lot of anaesthetists - in that I am one - and can confirm that the one you know plus this one in Georges are barking and are definite outliers. We have all seen so many die of Covid that we were desperate to get the first jab in our arms. ITU whilst still busy, given the community case numbers is like night and day to how it was, the vaccines are having a massive effect.
Yup all the A&E consultants I know, GPs, Anaesthetists and other consultants all have been jabbed, very pro-jabbed and happy for it to be compulsory. A few have been quite vocal about this guy and his very different views, which go against the science he’s ignored.
thought crime?
No, challenge to non medic with technical medical questions on national TV during a global pandemic, he'll know he's the now the anti vax poster boy and used to justify not getting jabbed
He didn't need to do it that way
His crime is not a "thought crime", it's a deliberately vocally undermining national public health strategy crime during his paid hours working for the same organisation that is promoting vaccination on national TV.
He could have just gone to the loo and avoided the whole thing
I dont think he's that alone though in saying people who have had covid wouldn't need to get the vaccine. The antibodies from having it cover you.
The antibodies from having it cover you.
But they don’t. Having some antibodies from previous infection(s) do not protect nearly as well as also having the vaccine on top of (or before) infection. There was a time when it was hoped that existing antibodies from infection would mean vaccination isn’t needed to ward off reinfection (and possible ill health), but it hasn’t turned out that way unfortunately. He’s very out of date as regards medical knowledge if he maintains that is the case now.
It's worth remembering when considering whether disciplinary action against Steve James would be justified that when orthopedic surgeon David Nunn embarrassed a NHS trust on national television he was disciplined.
Despite the fact that unlike Steve James the issue David Nunn was making a point about in front of TV cameras was actually the NHS trust's policy.
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2011/jun/22/surgeon-pm-hospital-leave
was Nunn disciplined - article says he went on indefinite leave, which might have been sensible, stress related, whatever.....
I have a small amount of sympathy - it's an opinion, it's (IMHO) incorrect but not totally crackpot, and it's not just policy but it is a matter that affects people personally more than a directive on tie wearing or car parking charges for example. It's an opinion and discussion he's entitled to have.
But sympathy evaporates when you grandstand it to make a point, slightly tempered if you consider that this might be the one chance to have the conversation, IMHO should have asked to speak to Javid off camera to avoid undermining policy and then no-one would have known.
Some of you guys are getting totally hysterical about this. Point out what the doctor has actually done wrong that he could be disciplined for? You are allowed to question.
Nunn was not disciplined
Should Dr Dix be disciplined for saying "end the booster campaign?
No, challenge to non medic with technical medical questions on national TV during a global pandemic,
The challenge came from Javid, The medic was asked a question and gave an honest answer.
I don’t think he should be disciplined in any way for raising his concerns. The manner of the reporting worries me, and the fuelling of antiVax sentiment coming at a time when the UK is shifting to a pandemic response that is basically vaccinations (and treatments) only. Spreading doubt about our medical response at a time when we are leaning on it so heavily, and watering down social responses (in England) to next to nothing, isn’t responsible, in my opinion.
Anti-vax are all over this response with the typical “Well if our Dr’s, who are experts, won’t have it then it makes you wonder what’s in it.” Completely ignoring the fact he’s represents a tiny amount of NHS Drs.
Should Dr Dix be disciplined for saying “end the booster campaign?
I not sure he needs to be disciplined but a chat a behaviour and perceived attitudes would be beneficial for all parties. Of course Dix shouldn’t be disciplined, he comments are worlds apart. He’s saying as it stands at the moment after this booster it’s looking like, for now, no more or needed. That is far from anything like the other guy.
So in your NHS Drac no one can challenge policy? Please point out what the doc said that merits disciplinary action?
Its worth noting that the trade unions, the professional bodies and the NHS management do not want this policy of mandated vaccines
etc etc
His crime is not a “thought crime”, it’s a deliberately vocally undermining national public health strategy crime during his paid hours working for the same organisation that is promoting vaccination on national TV.
Phrased much better than I tried last night.
If I undermined HMRCs tax policy to the Chancellor on the TV news I'd be out on my ear, no doubt about it.
So in your NHS Drac no one can challenge policy? Please point out what the doc said that merits disciplinary action?
Absolutely nothing like I said. I mentioned behaviours and perceptions, he came across badly, he looked just like an angry individual rather than discussing opinion calmly. Perceived attitude as I say, nothing to do with the vaccine.
was Nunn disciplined – article says he went on indefinite leave, which might have been sensible, stress related, whatever…..
Well maybe disciplined isn't the correct term to describe how they reacted to his embarrassing behaviour in front of national TV cameras, what would you call gardening leave?
But it has ended badly for 57-year-old David Nunn, the orthopaedic surgeon blamed for startling the Prime Minister and his deputy, who has unexpectedly gone on leave, and for his NHS patients who now face longer waits to be seen by Mr Nunn's hard-pressed colleagues.
And btw I'm not necessarily suggesting that Steve James should be disciplined, I am simply pointing out that a NHS trust can be expected to be concerned about the behaviour of their staff in front of national TV cameras.
And that applies to all employers btw.
In his interview this morning, the sum total of his argument was that he didn’t want to be vaccinated and that duration of protection from transmission was about eight weeks. There was really no substance to his message. The former is a position that will be incompatible with employment, and the latter is very poorly estimated.
Will the numbers leaving the NHS due to the policy be more than offset by the now reduced absence due to full vaccination? It’s an obvious question. At a time of high infection I would expect this to be the case.
Dix used the wrong argument. Omicron is a different beast to wild-type, alpha, beta and delta C19 with the key points being it’s much less pathogenic for the vast majority of people but very, very easily spread. The main issue for the NHS is not of staff dying of Omicron but vast numbers having to isolate with a sore throat and runny nose. Being vaccinated largely makes no difference to spread but reduces the risk of serious illness - so the issue of all NHS staff being vaccinated is now out of date. I’m pro-vaccination, triple vaccinated and was quite literally first in the queue at my hospital for it and a few weeks ago was all in favour of the change in law for NHS staff to have to be vaccinated given how many have died. That was before Omicron, now in my view is mandatory vaccination is a non-issue and the right PPE and infection control is the one we should be most concerned about.