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Is there?
Yes - the regional variations in NHS staff take up of vaccines is well documented Its on the NHS website if you want to dig into to it and has been in many news stories
The latest NHS figures show vaccination rates vary hugely: among hospitals, Dorset County hospital has the highest at 94.6%, while Barts Health NHS Trust has the lowest rate of fully vaccinated staff, at 79.7%.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282
I'll clear up one of those points TJ.
Jehovah's Witnesses do not object to the Covid-19 vaccines and have supported it's uptake to prevent serious illness or death.
Just for clarity.
Of the top of my head? christian scientists? Jehovah witness? * Ithink)
Jehovah Witness no they don’t refuse on religious grounds. I don’t think the UK has much of a population of Christian Scientists.
Barts Health NHS Trust has the lowest rate of fully vaccinated staff, at 79.7%.
So the lowest at around 80% seems unlikely they’ll be many units with high amounts of unvaccinated frontline staff.
Jehovah Witness no they don’t
Some do. There is a JW chuch group in Ringwood who won't have it on religious grounds as they determine it to be a medical intervention.
As TJ says, there are subsets of all religions that interpret the "rules" differently.
So the lowest at around 80% seems unlikely they’ll be many units with high amounts of unvaccinated frontline staff.
I'm with Drac. I'm still not feeling this is likely to be a major problem, and if vaccination rates are lower mainly in major urban areas I can't see any hypothetical unit closures leaving an area with no cover at all - lower availability or quality of care maybe.
I understand your concerns around this whole issue TJ, but I'm not sure the data is supporting the risks that you think it does.
(In true STW fashion, I have no separate data to support my view.)
sorry, that didn't work as intended!
Well the NHS leaders seem to think it a problem. and the stats agree
and if vaccination rates are lower mainly in major urban areas I can’t see any hypothetical unit closures leaving an area with no cover at all –
Remember in England trusts are in competition not co operation.
if vaccination rates are lower mainly in major urban areas I can’t see any hypothetical unit closures leaving an area with no cover at all
What about the effect of having large (relatively) numbers of staff unvaccinated on staffing levels when a wave hits (like this winter)?
That ~80% worse case for trusts is very reassuring actually. I thought it might be lower, considering the regional variations in uptake for flu jabs for health staff.
@TJ your interpretation of the stats around this fact fits very well with your 'state overreach' narrative. Why do you think this is?
I know I'm trolling a bit here, but I'm not going to apologise. I haven't looked closely at the stats, and I'm also not disagreeing with the anti-authoritarian concerns. But I think we all have to be mindful of when we are performing mental gymnastics.
Remember in England trusts are in competition not co operation.
Not since the "Five Year Forward View" they're not. It comes down to: Is it safer to close a unit rather than have unvaccinated staff running it? I can guess the CQC's take on it.
I was wondering how to phrase it, but yes, maybe you are interpreting the figures to support your entirely reasonable concerns about the rights and wrongs of compulsory vaccination.
Even in the article, I'm not seeing data to justify, as I pointed out earlier, a very large "if" in the reported concerns.
I think there is a debate around idealism and pragmatism on the issue but I personally don't think we want to be justifying what you yourself consider stupidity in health care staff, ever.
Some do. There is a JW chuch group in Ringwood who won’t have it on religious grounds as they determine it to be a medical intervention.
The subset of those belonging to such a church and also working in a hospital 'medically intervening' with others is surely (thankfully) vanishingly small, or in fact zero.
The number of extreme JWs - or any other group opposed to medical intervention - employed in health care settings should be small enough to stand out in even the most cursory of audits!
There is a JW chuch group in Ringwood who won’t have it on religious grounds as they determine it to be a medical intervention.
They all must work in the same maternity unit.
I'm not saying they work in the nhs, but there is at least one I know of that has just left the care sector because of the vaccine mandate.
You asked what religions object to vaccines. I provided one example that I know of.
I did and so far we have 2 possible religions, none of which are a high number and one of which is unlikely to work in the NHS. And we have a sample of 1 person leaving the care sector, so they’re not having a significant effect.
Chris Hopson, the chief executive of NHS Providers, said that at one hospital trust in England, 40 midwives were refusing to get jabbed, raising fears that the maternity unit may have to close.
I was wondering how to phrase it, but yes, maybe you are interpreting the figures to support your entirely reasonable concerns about the rights and wrongs of compulsory vaccination.
Nope - I am just seeing this differntly. some of you are looking at the broad brush figures and seeing no issue. I understand this is a very concentrated and local effect as in the quote above. So yes across the NHS as a whole no huge issue but in particular areas or units - a huge issue
NHS providers is a private company, not part of the NHS.
https://nhsproviders.org/about-us/working-for-us/our-team/chris-hopson
Its part of the funny setup they have in england is it not?
Stupid formatting linky no worky.
NHS Providers is the membership organisation for NHS trusts in England, which takes part in negotiations between the trusts and the Department of Health[1] and provides development support to trust leaders.[2] Until 2011, it was a section of the NHS Confederation.
Claiming 90% of trusts as members, NHS Providers is overseen by a board of 20 trust chiefs.[3] The organisation's chief executive since 2012[4] is Chris Hopson[5] and its chair is Sir Ron Kerr, former chief executive of Guy's and St Thomas' NHS Foundation Trust, London.[6]
So, was actually in a London hospital and skirted the conversation over a few visits with a few staff recently. The response: Not too fussed, we have all caught it before being vaccinated, impossible to work in hospital and not get it. Then we got vaccinated, then another other variant came, but it’s not as bad as the one we already caught and have natural antibodies + vaccination against. I simplify greatly but mainly they didn’t much care. Patients with it a few metres away. Just dealing with it with zero panic or judgement. Covered losing key personnel and they said it was a massive problem but bigger worries are retirement, early retirement, going private, moving out of the city, or healthcare altogether. When you add this latest issue to an already stressed system is where trouble builds up. Hope there is good succession planning for key people across the whole country.
Just seen the figures for our trust, it covers all staff. They’re very high which explains why I’ve literally had one person ask what may happen. I’m still struggling to believe there’s a unit with 40 unvaccinated midwives.
Local trust is now progressing with 1 to 1s with the unvaccinated staff (in the relevant population). As I understand it 1st April is the deadline.
On Wednesday Sir David Nicholson, the former chief executive of NHS England who is now the chair of the Sandwell and West Birmingham hospitals trust, said that it could lose hundreds of staff as a result of mandatory vaccination.
Still think this is not an issue?
Looks like Sky News are about to get kicked off Twitter: https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1479532922952732672
My fiancée is a reporting radiographer and all she’s been doing is reporting covid X-rays, I’ve seen them…. They’re horrific!
What it does to the lungs is truly disgusting, the white patches can be so thick it looks like bone.
All jabs had here, so glad too as it’s the unvaccinated in most of the cases locally who are in ICU
On Wednesday Sir David Nicholson, the former chief executive of NHS England who is now the chair of the Sandwell and West Birmingham hospitals trust, said that it could lose hundreds of staff as a result of mandatory vaccination.
I could win the lottery if I bought a ticket.
Saw that Sky report on last nights news. MrsMC, who is far more relaxed about Covid and "the rules" than I am suggested that the consultant came across as a "proper knob".
Seriously, I'd rather someone like that wasn't treating me or my family. I'd have no faith in anything he told me, no matter what his area of specialism.
I'm sorry for his colleagues who'd have to pick up his work, and the delays his loss would cause patients, but that attitude has no place in the NHS.
So to go back to TJs restarting post
On Wednesday Sir David Nicholson, the former chief executive of NHS England who is now the chair of the Sandwell and West Birmingham hospitals trust, said that it could lose hundreds of staff as a result of mandatory vaccination.
Good. They undermine the credibility of the service they are supposed to represent.
Still think this is not an issue?
Though I accept it's an issue.
consultant came across as a “proper knob”.
An absolute bellend and doesn’t represent any of the consultants who I know.
An absolute bellend and doesn’t represent any of the consultants who I know.
Wonder what his colleagues honestly think? At what point does saying that on the national news, undermining the entire basis of the NHS covid response, become bringing his profession into disrepute?
A long long way from what he has said or done to reach that point
A long long way from what he has said or done to reach that point
I wouldn't play down the significance of his comments. They are totally at odds to what is now the central strategy to deal with the most serious global health crisis in over a hundred years.
A strategy which has been strongly adopted by the World Health Organisation, and as far as I know every single nation on Earth.
I consider that to be fairly serious.
A long long way from what he has said or done to reach that point
Maybe it shouldn't be.
don,t get me wrong - I think anti vax folk are idiots. My concern is just over the secondary effects that will come from compulsory vaccinations ie the loss of staff that are very much grouped in pockets and also the huge pressure on folk to take vaccinations under duress is both illegal and unethical
Seriously, I’d rather someone like that wasn’t treating me or my family. I’d have no faith in anything he told me, no matter what his area of specialism.
Few weeks back, as Omicron was emerging, I was listening to a S African doctor talking about it to a BBC journo on the radio.
He was coughing a wee bit and the journo said "oh dear, hope you don't have it" or words to that effect.
Doc replied, "yes, I have it but I am fine, just feels like a cold."
He then reeled off his COVID experience.
Alpha in spring 2020.
Double jabbed over the summer.
Delta autumn 2020
Boosted late 2020
Omicron a few weeks later.
Would I prefer the care of the Sky news 'antivax' doc or the triple jabbed and triple Covided doc?
Don't think I'd be too fussed either way tbh, and can't fathom why anyone else should be.
Sorry bedmaker but what’s your point exactly? Are you saying that the jabs don’t provide protection from covid?
I was wondering what it was that he was actually referring to:
1. Covid vaccines don't work - they don't stop you getting it but do massively reduce severity.
2. Vaccines don't stop you spreading it - true but I think we know that, the science is clear.
3. Side effects - plenty of data on that.
The only argument I could see was it doesn't prevent transmission, fair enough, but if he does get it he would be less severe and he'll be able to return to work faster, which for the NHS is a pretty damned good reason for being vaccinated.
I never said anything about vaccines not working, get a grip.
I said that if be happy with either doctor treating me.
The one who has had COVID once, and appears to have some protection from that, or the one who has had three lots of COVID, and three Vax jabs.
I don't think either scenario necessarily affects how they do their job, or their chances of harming me while doing so.
Sacking NHS staff for being vax hesitant is mental.
The one who has had COVID once, and appears to have some protection from that
He said he has picked up having had covid due to an antibody test, that’s a long way from any protection. Even if he did the immunity rate from catching it drops of faster than the vaccine. The science does add up the vaccine and boosters offer greater protection.
It's not his Covid status that would be worrying me, it's his reluctance to have a jab despite all the evidence it is beneficial for the individual and larger society, especially in a health care setting where reducing severity of illness for health practitioners and getting them back to work is vital. What other strange views might he hold that could impact on my treatment.
I never said anything about vaccines not working, get a grip.
Hence the reason I asked you to clarify what you meant, you angry little man
As above, if he doesn’t agree vaccines are absolutely essential, then what other whack job theories does he adhere to. And would I want someone like that treating me.. certainly not if there was an alternative
you angry little man
That should defuse the situation and help to stop it escalating further!
Btw is the reference to little man based on prior knowledge or is it the assumption that only men are likely to make beds?
What other strange views might he hold that could impact on my treatment.
I have had all sorts of healthcare staff with all sorts of odds views from those who do not understand ethics to those who think ill health is gods punishment to those who are downright ill treating vulnerable patients
.