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Turns out Mr James may have an ulterior motive for downplaying the effectiveness of the vaccine. - Isn't it always the way? He may be a bit of a quack. Lots of "functional medical detox" horseshit on his website...Once again your occasional reminder that completion of a medical degree does immunise one from the profit available through the wellness culture
Can’t say I’m shocked.
Me neither - anti vaxers generally are bampots. Thats not the point tho - the point is the moral and ethical issues around mandatory vaccinations and the staffing issues this will cause
As above - the unions and the royal colleges are against it as are many senior NHS managers
Mandatory vaccination is a moral and ethical issue
Undermining your employers very important public health message is another one entirely.
Unions are very cautiously worded, encouraging all members to get vaccinated but also saying they’re discussing the issue of compulsory vaccines.
Unions and the royal colleges make their opposition clear in carefully worded statements - carefully worded so as not to upset the government
Javid is also a clown here. a basic rule of politics - never ask a question if you are not prepared for an answer you do not want. He should not have been in that ITU anyway - managment should have not allowed him to be there to grandstand
I'm not really understanding the opposition here- when I started training I had to get all kinds of vaccinations including hepatitis and the like, and there was a good clinical reason for this- it was to protect my patients. This is the same clinical reasoning that applies to the covid vaccine- but this time there is an added and very obvious need to protect the community added in too. So why are we getting shitty about it? Just let us get on with it and stop all the anti vax bullshit, I'm sick of hearing it tbh
Shermer - as explained before there are huge ethical and moral issues over this ( mandatory vaccination). Its a massive departure from normal medical practice, consent cannot be given under duress and the threat of dismissal is duress and its going to cause staffing issues.
Its turning centuries of medical ethics on its head. Note its only in England - Scotland and Wales hare not doing this
all those vaccines you had were voluntary and not to protect patients anyway but to protect staff and they are NOT mandatory
Being anti vbax is stupid yes - but making vaccines mandatory is not the answer here. anyone who is sacked for not having it will have an strong case for unfair dismissal
I am astonished how few folk on here even in the trade have so little understanding of medical ethics. I find that really concerning. How can yo stand up for your patients without a basic understanding of ethics, consent and autonomy. Read the NMC guide on autonomy - a keystone of nursing practice.
all those vaccines you had were voluntary and not to protect patients anyway but to protect staff and they are NOT mandatory
Mine were, my eldest is just going through the last steps to start her training with the NHS. She has to have the same vaccines and covid or they’ll not take her on.
NOt so Drac. suggested, encouraged, perhaps even made a condition of starting employment but that is very different from mandatory vaccination of existing staff. I know this for a fact as I refused some they wanted me to have ( rubella, hep and flu)
The managment may make it sound like its compulsory but a[part from a very small number of specialist units there is no mandate on vaccines. Its not a part of your T&C to have them
Having said that - in your job I would have had the lot in an instant
that is very different from mandatory vaccination of existing staff.I know this for a fact as I refused some they wanted me to have
We’ve covered this. I had to have additional vaccines after I started, as did many staff some of which more vaccines then myself. The option was have them or redeployment to a none frontline emergency care position if there as a suitable one.
You’re in different countries… so can both be right without it being contradictory.
Its worth noting that the trade unions, the professional bodies and the NHS management do not want this policy of mandated vaccines
Is that though because they're actually more bothered with staffing levels than whether those staff could pass on Covid to patients?
devbrix
That was before Omicron, now in my view is mandatory vaccination is a non-issue and the right PPE and infection control is the one we should be most concerned about.
Worth remembering that Delta hasn't gone away but is running in parallel to omicron to one degree or another.
Are there now enough anti-vax NHS people to exclusively staff a hospital for the sole use of anti-vax COVID patients?
Kill two bird-brains with one stone.
Like the idea big John! might be a slightly odd staffing mix given that midwives ad anaesthetists seem to be over represented 🙂
Is that though because they’re actually more bothered with staffing levels than whether those staff could pass on Covid to patients?
I suspect that its also the ethical considerations as well as the practical on staffing levels
the mandatory vaccination is a tory political stunt.
You’re in different countries… so can both be right without it being contradictory.
Of course, but look who are doing the arguing! 🤣
You’re in different countries… so can both be right without it being contradictory.
Yup. I work for NHS England who are implanting this.
Of course, but look who are doing the arguing!
🙂
Javid is also a clown here. a basic rule of politics – never ask a question if you are not prepared for an answer you do not want. He should not have been in that ITU anyway – managment should have not allowed him to be there to grandstand
Why what did Javid do? My understanding was that he listened politely to Steve James but respectfully disagreed. I thought even Steve James acknowledged as much?
And of course he should have been in an ITU, as long as all the correct protocols were followed, he's the bleedin Health Minister ffs!
We are at a particularly critical point in an extremely serious and deadly global pandemic. It the duty of the Health Minister to be proactive in the extremely important goal of advising, informing, and educating, the general public.
Visiting an ITU to emphasise the importance of vaccinations in keeping vulnerable people out of ITUs is precisely what I would expect a Health Minister to do. I would be less than impressed if he spent all his time sitting on his fat arse in some plush office. And I'm sure that you would be the first to criticise him if he did that.
.
the mandatory vaccination is a tory political stunt.
And yet from what I have read in the right-wing press it is far more like to piss off Tory voters.
Javid asked a question that he was not prepared for an answer he didn't want. Basic rule of politics. Never do that
Of course he should not have been in the ITU. They have much more important things to do than waste time on political stunts / photo ops
I have actually been part of a group that threw a politician out of the unit I worked in and also turned my back on one and walked away when asked a question because you know - I had people to look after
Politicians using hospitals for photo ops stink
the political stunt is another attempt to stir up trouble and find an enemy within. Multiple attempts to find scapegoats for the horrendous death rates we have in the UK - which are 100% the tories fault
the royal colleges and the unions did not take the bait tho leaving the tories with this absurd and counterproductive policy. Note its England only. compulsory vaccination is ruled out in Scotland and Wales - for the very ethical reasons I outlined
Javid asked a question that he was not prepared for an answer he didn’t want. Basic rule of politics. Never do that
What question did he ask?
According to one report :
"I wouldn't say he agreed with me," Mr James said. "I had the feeling he was listening."
Sounds reasonable to me...... listened but didn't necessarily agree - what's wrong with that?
Btw if the hospital management agreed I don't see a problem with the Health Secretary visiting an ITU during a period of intense public concern, but are you actually sure that he visited an ITU?
You are the only one who I have heard make that claim, and if don't mind me saying you have been known to have been factually incorrect before.
Javid asked him what he thought of the mandatory vaccination policy. Thats a stupid question to ask if you do not want a negative answer. Like when Brown got caught out by a bigot answering a question honestly
i thought he was in an ITU but wherever he was he was wasting the professionals time by being there. These folk were on duty and are busy
"Mr Javid asked staff members on the intensive care unit about their thoughts on new rules requiring vaccination for NHS workers"
From the sky report on it.
I loathe politicians of any type using hospitals for photo ops and wasting staff time. I have had to deal with them in the past and its an utter pain which is why I will turn my back on them and walk away. Its not for me to provide some nice back drop for their photo op which is all that is.
Many many moons ago Ken Clarke visited our HQ at the time. It was about the ambulance strike, he actually took his time to talk to whoever he could. Came across as a genuine person, especially for a Tory and wanted to find a resolve to the strike. Turning my back on him would have made me look silly and unprofessional.
Javid asked him what he thought of the mandatory vaccination policy. Thats a stupid question to ask if you do not want a negative answer.
According to this article it was Dr James who was questioning Javid, not the other way round :
You will notice from the article that Dr James appears to have received a lot of criticism from other healthcare professionals, Javid doesn't appear to have received any.
Although iNews could be in the pocket of the Tory Party, that usually seems to be the explanation.
I have watched the original interview. Javid asks " what do you think of the vaccination policy?"
I think James is a tosser. This is not about the rights and wrongs of the vaccinations - to me its about the ethics of mandatory vaccinations which all the unions and royal colleges and many senior managers ( as far as I can see) are against but will not outright say so because they do not want to fall into the tory trap of creating an enemy within to blame
I am really astonished how few folk here seem able to understand what a serious ethical issue this is. also that it will cause staffing issues - it already has done in care homes.
here you go ernie - a direct link to Javid asking the question
they appear to be in the staff base of the ITU and all be on duty so he has just wasted several hundred pounds worth of staff time to thousands of pounds worth. consultant, band 7s and 6s - half a dozen staff standing around with a politician rather than getting on with what they should be doing.
Drac - whereas in the case where I did I had a patient waiting for me for care. It would have been unprofessional of me to delay that persons care to speak to a politician. It was also purely an election photo op.
Okay he asked them a question on a contentious issue, I can't see much evidence that he couldn't handle the answers, even Dr James, the other protagonist in this story, freely admits that Javid listened to him.
Obviously you believe that it was a waste of money to allow Dr James to express his views to the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, but many people take the view that senior politicians should step out of their ivory towers and connect and listen to people who experience the consequences of their decisions.
I have no problem with him meeting folk to understand what is going on and I agree Javid handled it well
what I object to is two things - wasting valuable staff time when hospitals are bursting and using the NHS for photo ops which is all this was. He wasn't there to find out anything - he was there to get his face on the news.
Like when Brown got caught out by a bigot answering a question honestly
Who was this? During biggotgate Mr Brown publicly apologised to Mrs Duffy and she had a seat of honour at a subsequent Labour party conference. So it can't have been her.
Who do you think her remarks were about in the first place?
he was there to get his face on the news
And could have been turned away by the hospital or the ward clinicians if they wanted. Nobody will override either if they really object.
But they didn't
So it's just more faux outrage
I have no problem with him meeting folk to understand what is going on and I agree Javid handled it well
So you have no problem with him meeting people as long as it's not face to face. Well that's an interesting argument although not the most convincing that I've heard recently.
Btw I see no reason to assume that Javid might have problems getting his face on the news. He is a senior Cabinet member and everything and anything he says or does is likely to be reported in the news.
Many many moons ago Ken Clarke visited our HQ at the time. It was about the ambulance strike, he actually took his time to talk to whoever he could. Came across as a genuine person, especially for a Tory and wanted to find a resolve to the strike. Turning my back on him would have made me look silly and unprofessional.
There is an uncomfortable reality that many politicians are trying to do what most would accept is the right thing. Many may not agree with the decisions or reasons but it's hard to argue that some really don't try. It applies to politicians of any mainstream party. It's why the vitriol that is blindly spouted is often really misdirected.
So you have no problem with him meeting people as long as it’s not face to face. Well that’s an interesting argument although not the most convincing that I’ve heard recently.
Nope - I do not want politicians taking up staff time when they are on duty in the middle of a pandemic that causes huge workloads. I do not want Politicians using NHS facilitiesd for photo ops for personal publicity.
When staff time is limited and under huge pressure to use up hours of staff time ( half a dozen staff for 10 - 15 mins) then that is wrong
I am astonished you do not see this. Staff time is limited and under huge pressure. to take staff on duty out of work is wrong.
There is an uncomfortable reality that many politicians are trying to do what most would accept is the right thing
Utter nonsense. To the tories its all a game about power and control. If they wanted to "do the right thing" they would not be tories. tory policy is to destroy the NHS
If this was about "fact finding" why the TV cameras?
I am astonished you do not see this.
And I'm astonished that you have "no problem with him meeting folk to understand what is going on" but castigate him for doing precisely that.
Presumably you would have been happier if the Secretary of State for Health had met Dr James down the pub after work?
Are you being deliberatly dense?
the problem is taking staff away from their work to meet him - and of course doing it on camera which shows its a publicity stunt not a fact finding mission anyway
If he wants to meet up with staff then he needs to set up a meeting where he is NOT taking staff away from their jobs to do so.
ITUs are under huge pressure. to take staff out of their work to speak to politicians means someone somewhere is not getting the care they should. You really think its more important to speak to a politician for a publicity stunt that looking aftert those very sick people?
Care work is unlike other work. It cannot wait. Someone has received sub optimal care because the politician took up staff time
I am really astonished how few folk here seem able to understand what a serious ethical issue this is. also that it will cause staffing issues – it already has done in care homes.
Maybe you're confusing what you think with what we think?
For me I don't have a problem with mandated healthcare, when it's been through the proper checks & balances. This is how infectious diseases have been dealt with for centuries.
Personally I've had to take injections to enable me to do my job (international travel) as otherwise I wouldn't be allowed into the country I was working nor would you want me to return to the UK carrying the diseases if I caught them.
Staffing-wise, it may/will cause an issue but TBH do we actually want people with this view in our healthcare system?
Are you being deliberatly dense?
the problem is taking staff away from their work to meet him
I wasn't there. I don't know if Dr James left the patients he was attending to express his views to the Secretary of State.
You presumably think he did. So that's another criticism that can be leveled at Dr James..... not only does he apparently talk shite about the covid vaccine but he also abandons his patients to talk shite to the Health Secretary.
Are you sure Dr James shouldn't be facing disciplinary action?
Ernie - there is a difference between care work and other work - care work is delayed it harms people. Other work is delayed it did not
its not just the doctor who had their time wasted - its all the nurses and ancilliary staff.
IN hospitals and ITU especially there is always more work than time available. So to take staff out of work reduces the amount of care they can give
because of Javids visit somone received less care that day than they would have done without Javid being there
For me I don’t have a problem with mandated healthcare, when it’s been through the proper checks & balances. This is how infectious diseases have been dealt with for centuries.
Nonsense. Mandated care before has been only used in extremis and only with a court order. there has never been mandated care like this on a politicians instructions and of course this is without those "checks and balances
Staffing-wise, it may/will cause an issue but TBH do we actually want people with this view in our healthcare system?
Which would you rather have - care from non vaccinated or no care?
care from non vaccinated or no care?
That's not the the choice on offer though is it? It's care from people who've been vaccinated and some units more short staffed then usual (if folks actually put their weird beliefs about vaccine over an income, which I doubt). Given the parlous state of staffing in the NHS will barely make any difference to the overall performance anyway.