[Closed] 2nd EU Referendum Petition.....

I don't really understand the point of the petition. We've had a debate and a count, everybody had a chance to express their view and the majority said out*.

We know the strength of feeling for staying in, it was slightly less than 50%

What the remain camp need to be thinking about now is how to influence the exit negotiations. It is possible that we can cut ourselves off and go for splendid isolation or we can go for something that is actually not that far removed from where we are now.

*I said In.

Both Cornwall and Yorkshire councils are asking government to confirm they will still get the same level of funding as they did from the EU. There is a reason they needed EU funding in the first place and the south east doesn't. Central government doesn't care about you and never has, so why do you thiink they will now give you tons of money now.

Quite right.

I'm a Cornishman living in Wales, and both voted "out", despite being huge beneficiaries of EU funding. I argued the case that this was not "our own money" (another massive lie), because Westminster had never given a flying fwk about investing in deprived areas.

What this Country really needs to make it great again is a coherent Industrial Strategy. The disenfranchised and discontent still haven't seen the replacement of the big, reasonably paid employers of the Industrial Age.

Coal, steel, shipbuilding, manufacturing weren't killed by the EU, they were killed by too high pay, lack of flexibility on working conditions, poor quality old school management, crap design and successive Governments with no will to see high skill, high value, high quality manufacturing succeed in a modern world.

Despite Tory rhetoric (fluffing there own core vote), small businesses are not (or certainly should not be) the "engine room of British prosperity". They're too small and run for the comfort and self interest of small business owners. Big, succesful, global businesses are the drivers of a succesful economy. If we want our economy to grow we need to attract inward investment and stop the bleed of companies going abroad.

That is not a likely Brexit outcome

As mentioned by footflaps earlier;

[url= http://news.sky.com/story/1717499/tata-steel-bidders-get-cold-feet-over-brexit ]Port Talbot steel at risk[/url]

We're less than 48 hours in. How many events like this, deep in working class Leave territory, until no-one is brave enough to press the big red "article 50" button?

I signed the petition. The brexiteers can complain and call me a bad looser or whatever. But it's not a game. We had one referendum that many think shouldn't have been called in a parliamentary democracy. The campaign was atrocious and the result was so close that another vote a few days later may have had a different result.

This is politics. If leave had lost Farage would be fighting for another bite. I would back anyone having a go at keeping us from leaving until it is clear to me that leaving is either best or that a genuine and significant majority of people really want to leave.

Then we have the terms of leaving. If the petition helps us stay even as part of the EEA I will back it. Anyway this is my opinion. I know some people will shout at me and tell me to get over it... but this matters and I'm happy to take comments.

Signing the petition is not about a second referendum - it's about getting MPs and particularly the parliamentary Conservative party to do the right thing for the Country.

Cameron played a blinder yesterday - totally blindsided all the Tory Cowards that signed the letter for him to stay on and do their dirty work - as I posted in one of the other threads:

Here you go Boris, here's the keys of No.10. You crapped in the duvet, so you clean it up

My god what have 'we' done.

The nation has basically chucked a toddler tantrum. Screamed and then deliberately shat in our own pull-ups.

Now we are sat in shitty pants thinking we have proved a point, when actually we're just sat in shitty pants looking very stupid.

😐

I don't really understand the point of the petition.[b] We've had a debate and a count[/b], everybody had a chance to express their view and the majority said out

No. We haven't had a debate.

We had a ridiculous and depressing exchange of meaningless shit.

Who debated the economy?
Who debated immigration?
Who debated sovereignty?
Who debated environment?
Who debated social policy & welfare?
Who debated employment rights?
Who debated what our future relationship with Europe looks like?
Who debated how to make Btitain attractive to investors and more competitive to the EU Countries?

Can you honestly answer any of the above?
A "debate" isn't a slagging match of "shit shit shit / fear fear fear" or "la la la were not listening"

philxx1975 - Member

Are you done because your making yourself look a bit silly.

Sweetheart - I'll be here all night. I'm typing up some research that was partially funded by the ERC (almost certainly another factor that VL didn't consider in the £350m figure plastered on the side of the bus), but I'm always willing to set aside some time for education.

Just making my

small and insignificant

Despite Tory rhetoric (fluffing there own core vote), small businesses are not (or certainly should not be) the "engine room of British prosperity". They're too small and run for the comfort and self interest of small business owners. Big, succesful, global businesses are the drivers of a succesful economy. If we want our economy to grow we need to attract inward investment and stop the bleed of companies going abroad.

I argued something similar when discussing the potential trade agreements of a post-Brexit UK: Our industry is primarily a specialism-led one, where we don't make the whole thing, we make small, important, specialist parts, for larger companies. Whilst this is an important role, it requires close trade links, such as those we had in the EU. A Britain out on it's own doesn't have the large-scale industry to be able to bargain effectively at trade talks.

It would go something like this:

China: We can send you mobile phones, tablets, computers, TVs, clothing, white goods, machine tools, bicycles, watches, toys, musical instruments etc etc. What can you send us?

Britain: [whispers between delegates] ..... errm..... how about a gearbox from a Bugatti Veyron?

China: Next!

Jonba, in the first instance the petition is reactionary. The in vote lost by the narrowest of margins in a monumental decision that is bigger than most people could even begin to appreciate. It's a petition of complete and utter disbelief that a majority of the U.K. could be so short sighted and gullible enough to cut their nose off to spite their face.

However, there could be utility in it. It appears that many people voted out as a protest vote believing that the result to stay was a foregone conclusion. But these same people now find themselves having voted for something they never wanted and are in shock. If this petition gains momentum, it may well cause another referendum where people actually make an informed vote and we drag this country back from the precipice.

Will it work? Who knows. But I sure as hell know that I am apoplectic with rage that someone has jepardised my future (and more importantly that of my unborn child) because, and this is a direct quote from someone I was speaking to today, "because I couldn't be arsed to listen to the arguments so took a punt on 'Out' for a laugh. I didn't think it would actually happen".

It might be described as snobbery or "sore losers", but the uninformed, disenfranchised, prejudiced and bigoted have between them managed to kneecap themselves and their country this week.

In my mind, ignorance is not a virtue, nor is the term necessarily offensive.

Ignorance of the facts is, however, what has led to this disastrous outcome for Britain.

This is not party politics.

This is the difference between rational decision making and emotional mob rule. Two factions within the nation have clashed and the mob have outnumbered the rational.

I and my friends, relatives and the vast majority of my colleagues are horrified and some were physically nauseated by what has happened this week.

Terrible.

Ps. The working classes are probably going to suffer most from the fall-out from the referendum. The educated, intelligent middle and upper classes have the skills, certificates, contacts and savings to cope.

philxx1975 - Member
Are you done because your making yourself look a bit silly.

Sweetheart - I'll be here all night. I'm typing up some research that was partially funded by the ERC (almost certainly another factor that VL didn't consider in the £350m figure plastered on the side of the bus), but I'm always willing to set aside some time for education.

Just making my

small and insignificant
contribution to the body of knowledge.

not as angry and shouty though, good for you calming down a tad.

jonba - Member

We know the strength of feeling for staying in, it was slightly less than 50%

That's not quite true. The strength of feeling for leaving was a little over 37.5% of registered voters (72.2% turnout of which VL capture 51.9%). Those who wished to remain or were happy enough with the status quo so as not to vote at all numbered 62.5% of the total vote.

That's why there is a petition.

Suppose we had a second referendum and the vote was to remain. Could the Brexiters then call for a third referendum ? And on and on and on and on ..........
Of course not. It's a f****** stupid idea.

dannyh plus 1

Both Cornwall and Yorkshire councils are asking government to confirm they will still get the same level of funding as they did from the EU.

The Government can't possibly know what level of funding the EU may or may not be providing in 2018 which is the earliest date we would have left the EU

[quote=thebees ]Suppose we had a second referendum and the vote was to remain. Could the Brexiters then call for a third referendum ?

They could if they thought there would be a different answer. Which is the fundamental point here - there is a significant expectation, based on plenty of evidence, that if another referendum was run on Monday there would be a different answer.

Daffy, this is the second time toady that a STW'er has claimed that non voters should be added to the remain vote. You re-define the word thick.

[quote=Nipper99 ]dannyh plus 1

The toddler analogy? I was also particularly impressed by that and think maybe he should stop while he's ahead!

Daffy, this is the second time toady that a STW'er has claimed that non voters should be added to the remain vote. You re-define the word thick.

I tend to agree: However, it does serve one purpose, and that is to demonstrate that something like this should never have been subject to a referendum in the first place. A decision that is not reversible and effects every single person in the country, boiled down to campaign soundbites.

It's fine for general elections and local elections, where if you don't like the subsequent performance of the elected official, you can exercise your democratic right to vote against them the next time. However, with this, there is no democratic right to change. Therefore, we now have 17 million people forcing 46 million people to live with their decision forever.

Ok, I hear you saying "it would be the same if the result was reversed", but that would just be a continuation of a situation we having been living under for forty years, with limited risk to those involved: it is a controllable situation.

The Government can't possibly know what level of funding the EU may or may not be providing in 2018 which is the earliest date we would have left the EU

Sorry, that is incorrect. The funding packages have been agreed for the period 2014-2020 (£486M)

FTFY 😉

However, with this, there is no democratic right to change. Therefore, we now have 17 million people forcing [s]46[/s] 65 million people to live with their decision forever.

I voted out. Not for a punt, not for a laugh, not because I'm racist or because I'm ignorant.

I'm part Greek. The European Commission "punished" the people of Greece after their previous push for the hasty acceptance of that nation into the EU. Greece was financially underdeveloped but in the pursuit of more centralised power, Brussels was keen to admit Greece and made the necessary financial accommodations to make it happen. After the inevitable cock up they turn their backs and plunge millions of Greeks into austerity and hardship and don't allow them to leave, devalue and rebuild (**** you where's our money), similar but less pronounced situation in Spain (50% youth unemployment anyone) and perhaps soon Italy will feel the pinch. These events told me all I needed to know about the way the EU is going. My mind was made up long before the current vote. Pragmatism says stay it's the truly selfish position, the EU superstate (by their own admission it's the end goal) is good for the founder members but always leaves the UK on the fringe and smaller states exposed.

This vote for many wasn't about the issues raised in this frankly disgusting disinformation campaign but was for many about a simple question - Who should make key economic and social policy here in the UK? Should it be a UK Parliament despite its obvious faults or 28 EU commissioners advised in the main by a conglomerate of "key business leaders" who have the power to pass EU law that is almost impossible to appeal.

Many of you talk about the long term nature of this vote,lamenting the fact that a GE is every five years, this is permanent yet you don't mention the long term nature of the EU Commssions activity and ultimately it's lack of accountability to the 508 million people in the 28 member states it ostensibly serves.

Do I think the EU is an evil plot? No of course not but I also do not believe it is capable of the fair management of the affairs of the people it is supposed to serve in it's current form. That form we are told quite clearly cannot be changed by us in the UK unless we accept more EU control and less local decision making in which case "maybe" so for me the catch 22 is right there.

I believe the UK will be in for a tough time however I also believe change at home is easier than change in the EU commission, get your own house in order seems sensible and perhaps more pragmatic in the very long term if pragmatism is what drove your in vote.

Nah not really I just don't want more immigrants innit.

I voted out. Not for a punt, not for a laugh, not because I'm racist or because I'm ignorant.

Your decision can only be respected. A considered view and conclusion (I'm ignoring the last bit 😉 )

fair play joolsburger, probably thebest reasoning ive read justifying an out vote, (it does completely absolve greeks of any blame themselves though)

how do you feel about us now heading for a Norway style arrangement,
ie all the laws/regulations, some of the financial contributions, but even less of the accountability?

I don't know about Greece, but the problem is Spain is widespread corruption.

The political, legal and financial system is a mess. The EU has given huge support to Spain. They do not enforce enough control on the country IMO. there are plenty of people there that are no more than criminals and should be made accountable for the mess they have made of things.

more power to the EU I say, many politicians just do nothing or even worse.. just look at what is happening here in the UK, this mess was not caused by the EU was it?

I also respect that point of view. However, I think you are pretty much basing your vote in what happened to Greece, rather than what will happen to Britain. Like many people I felt pretty lukewarm about the EU for a variety of reasons. But the vote to leave has concentrated the mind wonderfully & I realise how much we have to lose.

thebees - Member
Daffy, this is the second time toady that a STW'er has claimed that non voters should be added to the remain vote. You re-define the word thick.

I'm not, nor have I ever claimed that they should be added to the Remain count. I'm stating the fact that less than 40% of the total registered vote, voted for change. The rest voted, either by action or abstention, for no change and that's the premise behind petition for a 2nd referendum.

So, given your inability to read or comprehend correctly, now who's thick?

Joolsburger, Greece is not the UK.

I respect your decision. I also respect the decision of others who voted leave, I have no choice to. Irrespective of whether that decision was based on sound evaluation of the pros and cons, or a knee jerk reaction driven by racism or intolerance. Everyone was given a vote, and was given the chance to use their vote in the way they see fit.

However - what I'm not forced to do is accept the reasoning. If that reasoning is based on ignorance or driven by racism I'm going to point that out, because whether we're in or out, I don't want to live in a country where those views and prejudices continue to be so close to the surface.

And let's be honest; a substantial proportion of the Leave vote was driven by Daily Mail reading bigots and their ilk rather than people who've evaluated and come to a conscious conclusion.

The ones that didn't vote couldn't care less. You can ignore them.

I truly believe that sensible arrangements will be made, perhaps similar to Norway. It is necessary our exit be as painless and have the smallest impact on their economies as possible and we aren't Greece so punishment for us isn't an option.
I agree our problems are not all EU based but if this shocker of a vote has done anything it's put the spotlight very much on our political classes to get on with the job in hand and that needed to happen whatever the outcome was.
I used Greece as an example of the lack of fairness in attempting to govern 28 states and 508 million people centrally, it's herding cats (but with real human impact) that is all.

This referendum has highlighted the difference between 2 or 3 groups of people:

The educated, working middle income/class

The elderly

Everybody else

voting should be mandatory.
maybe less than 50% a jury should also decide the outcome of a trial because they all agree and outnumber the other views?

joolsburger - Member
I truly believe that sensible arrangements will be made,

[img] [/img]

Sorry, that is incorrect. The funding packages have been agreed for the period 2014-2020

Yes Kimbers I'll admit Boris does not fill me with confidence but it has also exposed Cameron for the coward and self serving little shit he is. But still perhaps he isn't in for long and it will be the civil service and silk street that cut the deals. Also Boris rides bikes so at least a part of him is human.

Is this true? it is in the express, but............

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683410/EXCLUSIVE-The-VOTE-LEAVE-backer-whose-petition-could-inadvertently-derail-the-Brexit

De Montfort University activist William Oliver Healey submitted the petition on May 25 in the hope it would help the fight for a Brexit if Vote Remain won the referendum by a narrow margin, by triggering a second referendum.

But the English Democrat activist from Telford's petition drew little interest…that is until yesterday when the Brexit victory was announced, and it now appears to have backfired.

Hehe - that is funny!

[quote=imnotverygood ]I also respect that point of view. However, I think you are pretty much basing your vote in what happened to Greece, rather than what will happen to Britain. Like many people I felt pretty lukewarm about the EU for a variety of reasons. But the vote to leave has concentrated the mind wonderfully & I realise how much we have to lose.

+1 - though I'd go further than lukewarm, and use the present tense (if anything my views have hardened in the last few days with the attitude coming from the EU, even if MRD applies). Yet I voted remain, because pragmatically for all I dislike about the club, being inside it was clearly vastly preferable to being outside - and I have no expectation that us leaving will result in them reforming before welcoming us back.

[quote=joolsburger ]I truly believe that sensible arrangements will be made, perhaps similar to Norway. It is necessary our exit be as painless and have the smallest impact on their economies as possible and we aren't Greece so punishment for us isn't an option.

I also admire your optimism. The trouble is, what you're missing is that not only is Norway's situation probably not preferable to what we had (I used to think it was, but no longer so sure), but that punishment very much is an option for us - not because it makes economic sense, but pour décourager les autres. The irony being that if we were alone in wanting to leave we could be allowed to leave on more amicable terms.

I think a Norway situation is the optimum we can hope for but as I said my vote wasn't based on the best economic outcome in the short or medium term it was much more about self determinism and the desire to reform at home first, the EU talk a good game but it's all about number one in the end to truly drive reform we'd have to get in the deep end and are we really up for that? It's shit or get off the potty time and so we got off.
I'm just not convinced it's always about the cash, sometimes it really is about democracy and choosing whose neck you get to wring when things go wrong.

it will be the civil service and silk street that cut the deals.

I wouldn't hold out much hope of every deal being done to the UK's satisfaction/benefit within the timescale of 2 years, a friends uncle is [i]some[/i] form of lawyer rather high up in the civil service and he's been talking to the effect that it's literally impossible to extract ourselves and ensure every point is covered, the knowledge and experience needed to do this incredibly involved and intricate process is no longer available within the current pool of avalible experience whilst also attempting to deal with the daily goings on of running the country.

Apparently we ain't seen nothing yet 😕

And as this is unprecedented I think timescales will be extended. Remember solvency 2 the insurers said it couldn't be done so the EU said fine whenever you're ready. There is always a way.

Good point - there's even an established mechanism to extend timescales in clause 50. The only question is whether the EU can be persuaded that it is in their interests to extend it.

I think most (all?) of us on the Remain side are intelligent enough to respect your reasons for voting the way you did, and I certainly have a lot of sympathy with them.

To those that voted to leave, I'm curious & I'm no expert (so that makes me exactly the type of person we should be listening to - according to Gove anyway) but an you please tell me how this is a good thing...

[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7697/27835298521_29abc3c577_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7697/27835298521_29abc3c577_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/JpHbu2 ]2016-06-26_07-09-37[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/zachamuffin/ ]Zach[/url], on Flickr

I'm not defending the 'out' vote all but that chart is still higher than in 2013/2014.

Stuff fluctuates short-term. I guess it's much further down the road that will count.

And no it's it not a good thing.

It's not. But it's not going to happen despite what a number of experts say. Oh, wait...

It amuses me slightly that a number of vocal Leavists on Facebook et al are saying along the lines of 'they said the economy would crash but look the market started to recover by the end of Friday'.

True enough but an economy takes over than 12 or so hours to tank and the FTSE isn't the economy (although they are linked to an extent but we saw growth in the FTSE even when the economy was in recession). They might be right, we might get through this relatively unscathed but let's assess in 6-12 months before crowing about how it was all scaremongering.

As a point of interest due to the drop in the pound the UK lost more money in a few hours than it paid into the EU in the last 15 years.

More worryingly though than sterling dropping or the FTSE is the downgrade in credit rating. The UK was one of the few countries in the world to come through the credit crunch with its AAA rating intact.

This allowed for cheap government borrowing and significantly aided the recovery. Again, in the space of a few short hours that's gone too.

Yes, it's far too early to say the economy is going to decline rapidly but various things are stacking up against it and only very careful management by Threadneedle St and the government will get us through. Trouble is the government is severely weakened and it's going to be up to CMD in his last few weeks in charge to get this one right so he can leave and be remembered as the man who ****ed a dead pig and destroyed the UK but just about saved the economy.

@rone - it's better than 13/14 because the Euro took a hit too, the pound/USD is the more telling one and that hasn't been as bad in a very long time

So has anyone got a cost of Brexit calculator on the go?

The referendum itself must have cost several million, the stalling of investment which will now go on for b the next 2 years, the current paralysis of government.

The legal costs to negotiate the exit strategy, I think a lot of lawyers are about to make a very very large sum of money from the taxpayer

@kimbers-not on here but I asked that question weeks ago.

In terms of time and money how much is Brexit going to cost-purely in terms of recodifying our entire law and in parliamentary time to do the negotiations.

Sod all else will get done in parliament for at least two years other than A50 and the country does have plenty of other shit that needs dealing with and we have other stuff for the civil service to be getting on with but they're going to be pretty busy too.

@mike - point taken but look at magnitude of drop between $/£ arounf 2008. Do you it will be worse?

When will we have passed the 0.4% of GDP that put EU contribution costs us, have we passed our already (even tho we are still paying it)

Who knows - and anytime those words come out my money is on YES

Certainty leads to stability leads to confidence.

Find me some of that and I might consider the pound a place worth investing

This is why the petition matters:

“A lot of things were said in advance of this referendum that we might want to think about again,” said the Conservative former Defence Minister Liam Fox.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-lave-campaign-broken-promises-mounting-live-updates-polls-7103076.html ]Independent[/url]

Nothing to do with sore losers, more to do with the lies and misrepresentation

Love the poll in that express article on the referendum:

Do you think there will be another referendum?

i) No way! there would be public outcry.

ii) Possibly - I wouldn't put anything past the government if they can argue enough people signed this.

Nothing to do with sore losers, more to do with the lies and misrepresentation

Precisely.

[img] [/img]

Oh no, I'm not disappointed,

[img] [/img]

Over 3.1million now.

MPs need to do their job now and start the debate on that advisory referendum.

All you leavers who reckon the petition is worthless, I tell you what, prove your convictions, join the movement, sign the petition.

Almost posted that on the wrong thread.

Over 3.1million now.

[img] [/img]
@zokes

I like the other petitons more

Replay England Iceland if we lose
Refight the Battle of Hastings

We just had a Referendum, people on the internet don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that you vote for things at a polling station not online

Also anyone can sign the petition, you just need to put in a postcode which takes seconds to lookup from anywhere in the world

We just had a Referendum, people on the internet don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that you vote for things at a polling station not online

Just signed. If only to feel like I'm doing something whilst I am waiting for The Plan from the leave campaign.

[img] [/img]

I like the other petitons more

Replay England Iceland if we lose
Refight the Battle of Hastings

We just had a Referendum, people on the internet don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that you vote for things at a polling station not online

Also anyone can sign the petition, you just need to put in a postcode which takes seconds to lookup from anywhere in the world

Not really, just something to do whilst I wait for The Plan from Tosspot Towers.

Feeling nervous about being held to account yet?

[img] [/img]

@MWS

Feeling nervous about being held to account yet?

spotted the chairs Zokes?
[img] [/img]

I hadn't, but a bit of googling reveals the link...

Meanwhile, at Vote Leave HQ:

[img] [/img]

Jamba - petition equals democracy in action. Suck it up princess. 😉

As I understand it any UK resident and any GB citizen wherever live can vote - allows the disenfranchised to speak.

Jamba - petition equals democracy in action. Suck it up princess.

However the man who actually set up the petitions process , the actual process where after 100,000 votes it gets debated stated live on the Radio 4 this morning

"it doesnt matter how many signatures the petition gets it will not trigger a second referendum , the best it can hope for is to be debated in parliament"

democracy at work

Which is all it needs really.

It's about giving remain leaning MPs the confidence to do the right thing in a parliamentary democracy.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36634407
Well it's been investigated for fake signatures, given it's 30x the threshold of being looked at then .....

Nice, not only sore losers but seemingly willing to commit fraud in order to push their agenda....you couldn't make it up.

No deviant, a lot of pressure to make sure it's real... 30x the threshold for getting debated

Absolutely redicolous. This will question the very heart of how Democraticly voting system and everything around it.
I suppose you could always use your human right to appeal if over turned, as you have used that said Country's voting system.
We wish we all could do this when the Elected party you didn't want to be in Goverment and ask for a re vote.

I don't like decision to leave, but the democratic process WAS the referendum.

To be upset now that politicians may have misrepresented the facts (no shit Sherlock!) or that some people didn't realise the consequences of their leave vote, or not realise that it wasn't an antiTory protest vote, where were these people when the Remain campaign needed active support before the referendum.

And even if we could turn back time and rerun it, how the hell can we do that now without looking like spineless morons? Hardly a great position to be trying to argue EU reform or new trade deals from.

Plus, I hated the way the EU made Ireland have another referendum to get the "right" result. Let's not lower ourselves to that.

Sad day for British democracy when the losing side feel they have the right to a 2nd go at it. Maybe the remain side should have not been complacent and got out and fought a more positive campaign. Lost fair and square so suck it up and stop embarrassing yourselves. Oh, and to those of you who didn't know what you were voting for. Ignorance is no defence.

deviant - Member
Nice, not only sore losers but seemingly willing to commit fraud in order to push their agenda....[b]you couldn't make it up.[/b]

Irony alert.

Sad day for British democracy when the losing side feel they have the right to a 2nd go at it. Maybe the remain side should have not been complacent and got out and fought a more positive campaign.