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Been thinking about this a bit lately .Race Face bottom bracket last 4 summer months seems i've done a lot of rides with it !Sorry not good enough. Fox forks over £500 stanchions wear out, Meta 5 frames crack (some stuff is bound to have faults ).The list goes on .Is it because it's a hobby or what ?We wouldn't accept cars household goods etc not being fit for purpose.It's almost as if manufacturers know we accept stuff like it and don't go the extra mile to make stuff fit for purpose.
We ride in crap conditions so if any of them are listening FFS make it do the job it's intended for !!!!
(i have to say there are one or two notable exceptions to be fair) but even so ....
I don't accept it, but I do get sick of sending stuff back under warranty.
Bloody good point Roland
including Shocks that sould be serviced once a year
Pace forks well there is anothere one
XT cheese rings
Freewheels that last 2 rides and they are shot
the list goes on
lol at XT cheese rings typo Andy ? no didn't think so !!!
We ride in crap conditions
You have to understand a couple of things. In most other countries, people don't ride when it's wet, they go mushroom hunting, sail, go skiing etc etc.
Therefore, Manufacturers design and build stuff that will work for the vast majority of people save the 1% in the UK.
Second your average UK MTB will be [s]fatter[/s] heavier than the average continental mtber, hence the fact that you lot seems to brake a lot.
Third mtb as a hobby have grow too far and gave up very bad habit with respect of what we should expect from warranty.
You BB died, well get over it, it's a disposable part, your helmet broke in a crash, well get over it too or don't crash.
Look what happen in motorcycling world. Crash with your 600£ arai carbon and ask for a crash replacement, get over a chain and sprocket kit in less than six month and ask for a warranty job and tell me how hard they have kicked your but.
Ride bike, they break simple as that...
juan:blah blah blah
...and just when i thought your posts could not get more inane.
but do you really think that cars and household goods etc never have any issues or fail? there seems to be a common theme on here and other forums that mtb products are crap or do not last, but considering the environments and the strains that we put them through it should be expected that stuff wont last, especially when demand is primarily for lightweight equipment rather than heavy duty use.
Possibly because most of the stuff that we buy we set higher score on other criteria than longetivity, no matter what we might say- weight, smoothness of action, adjustability and stiffness for forks for example- otherwise we'd still be using Z1's.
Also, the market is small for the stuff you're talking about, and for companies to keep making money they need to 'innovate' to keep selling stuff.
Compare it with performance motorbikes- how long do chains, tyres, even engines really last when stretched to the limit - if you want you can get a CG125 or a Z550 that'll just about live forever. You could also buy a midrange mountain bike such as a rockhopper etc with Tora or Recon forks that'll run for years.
Just to add that i contacted Silverfish about R/F bottom bracket .They agreed 4 months was pants but ...as i'd bought it off someone on here and didn't have a receipt they couldn't do anything about it.(That was their get out of jail free card !)I even said my LBS could vouch for it being brand new and sealed when they fitted it and the frame was faced but no dice .They did offer to replace the bearings if i paid for it i said thanks but no thanks.
Funny though they have now changed them for 2010 to a TEAM version .Does this mean current one isn't up to the job i wonder ?
Exactly, make stuff heavier and it would be much easier to make it more durable, no one would buy it though...
I'm not excusing it at all and I too have had some shockingly quick failures out of some manufacturers components but!
We do generally like a lot of the stuff we buy to be light
Which is obviously a major driver for the manufacturers too
I'm sure they could make a lot of kit more robust but the weight would go up and perhaps sales down because of it maybe
Also the manufacturers are working within some old standard sizes some of the time and also practical limitations on sizes e.g. BB, headsets... where they are perhaps limited buy those constraints
We’re also pushing our bikes harder, further and though more sh*t and bad weather than ever before
again not an excuse just a few thoughts
Oh and btw I have nothing at all to do with the cycle industry whatsoever
And no I don’t drink Tango 😯
Juan do you work for a manufacturer by any chance ? Sorry not good enough .As for lighter not an issue for me and also i weigh little more than a gnats fart and finally don't own a pressure washer before anyone asks.
Just continue to send or take stuff back from where you bought it
With me - anything that fails inside 12 months goes back & I'll keep at them until it's either replaced, repaired or I get a refund
with stuff like forks & frames I'd expect more than a year but I've never had either of them fail yet inside of 5 years.
Juan,
think you might find that Britain makes up far more than 1% of the mtb buying public
totally agree with original post, an mtb should be fit for purpose as all products should be and this covers ALL riding conditions (I work for an Indian owned British car manufacturer and the expensive testing and development work we have to do so we can sell 12 cars in some obscure country is unbelievable)
Bottom brackets are not, in my opinion, a disposable part
I think that we as consumers should be entitled to better than we recieve from some companies, especially since the enormous price hikes seen in the last 12 months (our cars haven't increased in price anywhere near as much as the bike components and we use the same aluminium, carbon, magnesium etc raw materials and are subject to the same currency fluctuations)
Must balance this with a pat on the back for those companies that do offer good warranty and back it up by honouring those warranties when required.
Jamie - Memberjuan:
blah blah blah
...and just when i thought your posts could not get more inane.
Heh..
juan - MTB parts are not just made for the continent though. The US/canada is a major market with plenty of heavier people and people who ride in the mud. In fact I'm fairly sure that it's bigger (MTB population wise) than europe minus the UK.
While things do break, they should last a specific amount of time. The acceptable length of time is 1 year hence warranties being 1 year.
I do happily take anything back within its warranty period if it has failed. I might even try it again and do the same again.
Bottom brackets are not, in my opinion, a disposable part
Well, basically, you're wrong. Because they are. As in when they wear out, you throw them away. Even if you replace the bearings on HT2s, that's 85% (..ish) of it down the drain.
Now, if you'd like to go back to cup and cone BBs that are properly serviceable, and need endless amounts of it, then be my guest!
Juan do you work for a manufacturer by any chance
Nope not for a bike shop either I pay standard RPP price for my stuff. I just think that we have been given very bad habit in terms of warranty. Buy a brand new yamaha EX motorbike and start thrashing the life out of it, now when the frame will break in the first couple of month and you go back for a warranty job tell me toward which welder they direct you.
BB are disposable, do you really expect a BB to last a year regardless of the mileage or the service? Don't be ridiculous.
Now, if you'd like to go back to cup and cone BBs that are properly serviceable, and need endless amounts of it, then be my guest!
I've still got one in my road bike, its ace 🙂
takes only a little longer to service it than it took to replace a cartrige BB, and lasts just as long between services as they did between failiures.
ohhh, and unless your a fasion victim its easy enough to avoid shoddy parts, just dont buy RF bb's, commencal frames or fox forks, ive never bought any and as a result have never had a failiure of any of thier products, strange that isn't it?
If everyone bought RS or magura forks then marzocchi and fox would have to build reliable forks to catch up. As a result marzocchi have gone back to open bath and simple dampers that work well, commencal have changed factories and fox are still s***.
If everyone bought RS or magura forks then marzocchi and fox would have to build reliable forks to catch up.
RS are now showing signs of poor quality / bad design, do a google search for 'motion control oil leak'.
If everyone bought RS or magura forks then marzocchi and fox would have to build reliable forks to catch up.
My RS forks developed horrible stanchion wear within a year of purchase.
juan - MemberJuan do you work for a manufacturer by any chance
Nope not for a bike shop either I pay standard RPP price for my stuff. I just think that we have been given very bad habit in terms of warranty. Buy a brand new yamaha EX motorbike and start thrashing the life out of it, now when the frame will break in the first couple of month and you go back for a warranty job tell me toward which welder they direct you.
BB are disposable, do you really expect a BB to last a year regardless of the mileage or the service? Don't be ridiculous.
Your motorbike analogy doesn't work as you are saying that you are destroying it rather than just using it as it shgould be and looked after.
I also expect a bb to last longer than a year as all it has to do is go round. The one on my commuter (truative GPX) is coming up to 2 years old and around 6000 miles. The one on my mtb is over a yea and has done over 2000 miles.
I agree with oldgit that things should last when you use them as the manufacture intended.
Why do us lot accept shoddy goods ?
Because a 0% defect rate on a mass produced products is impossible to achieve?
For every 20 people complaining on this foum there are 1,000,000 people happily using the same product.
Shocks that sould be serviced once a year
Which makes them so much more shoddy than cars 🙄
Perhaps the OP should read "Why do I accept shoddy goods"?!!!!
I actually research products before buying and as a result havn't had any issues with any MTB stuff i've bought (that i can think of!) 🙂
I once bought 2nd hand Fox forks that turned out to be shagged, that was my own fault and lesson learnt!
A bike is a series of mechanical parts, so actually using it results in wear!
Because a 0% defect rate on a mass produced products is impossible to achieve?For every 20 people complaining on this foum there are 1,000,000 people happily using the same product.
....and the balance swings back a little in terms of common sense 🙂
Buy a brand new yamaha EX motorbike and start thrashing the life out of it, now when the frame will break in the first couple of month and you go back for a warranty job tell me toward which welder they direct you.
BB are disposable, do you really expect a BB to last a year regardless of the mileage or the service? Don't be ridiculous.
As an engineer (oh dear, rolling that one out!) I'd expect that any product/part/item that I design lasts for AT LEAST the warranty period given any amount of abuse possible in normal conditions. i.e. if its the motorbike you speak of, I rev limit it and point out to the owner than it is designed for road use and not off-road, but then I expect my design should stand up to anything they throw at it for at least the warranty period. Ideally I'd make it so that it would last longer despite the thrashing. So as a buyer I expect the same. In both roles I expect there may be some failures for extremes (otherwise everything would be designed like victorian engineered parts) but for the vast majority it should be fine. The point being that I design the limits in myself - the engine may rev to 20K occasionally but NOT limiting it to less than that would mean that someone might drive around at 20K all day and my warranty would be very expensive for me, so I'll limit it to 15k so hey can drive around all day at that rpm. See what I mean?
BB's have never been disposable in the past, square taper BB's have lasted me 3-5 years of muddy UK riding with no problems. While I accept that its warranty may only be 12 months, the 6-month lifespan some people have is a bit rediculous, especially as the prices are higher than they ever were. As the HTII designer I'd be hanging my head in shame if the number of complaints on here actually reflects the number of failures. Personally I assemble mine properly and have only recently had it fail after 2 years, which isn't unreasonable.
and the balance swings back a little in terms of common sense
You mean people on here not talking sh1te or anything ;););)
As an engineer (oh dear, rolling that one out!) I'd expect that any product/part/item that I design lasts for AT LEAST the warranty period given any amount of abuse possible in normal conditions
No need for the warranty then 😉
The companies would save million$ on setting up the warranty scheme and service network.
coffeeking - MemberAs the HTII designer I'd be hanging my head in shame if the number of complaints on here actually reflects the number of failures. Personally I assemble mine properly and have only recently had it fail after 2 years, which isn't unreasonable.
Two very important points.
I do work for a manufacture and see plenty of kit that comes back under warranty, sure some of the kit has failed within the warranty period and we sort this out, Other kit comes back for warranty repair a it is in a crap state and you can see the kit hasn't been looked after. When you speak to the customer they will swear blind that they clean their bike and maintain it. Another classic is "I don't really jump my cross country bike, it hardly comes off the tow path". All manufactures have hear this before. Look after your kit and it will last, fact.
No need for the warranty then
The companies would save million$ on setting up the warranty scheme and service network.
Incorrect, because design and manufacture are two different things 🙂 If your manufacturer has a fault, or your materials are not up to spec you need the warranty to cover these failures. It doesnt mean the product is inherently bad, but maybe a metal supplier screwed up the composition, or your bonding process got too cold and that batch doesnt hold up to spec.
If you maintain as per manufacturers spec you'll generally find no problems at all. If you do find problems you can blame the product. If you break a lightweight frame dropping 4ft you cant complain, if you break it riding the llandegla red you can moan. If your BB dies after cycling through a lake you can't complain. But likewise, if you are used to bombproof products well outlasting their warranty it's hard not to expect that from any replacement.
Personally I assemble mine properly and have only recently had it fail after 2 years, which isn't unreasonable
ok please tell all
Incorrect, because design and manufacture are two different things If your manufacturer has a fault, or your materials are not up to spec you need the warranty to cover these failures. It doesnt mean the product is inherently bad, but maybe a metal supplier screwed up the composition, or your bonding process got too cold and that batch doesnt hold up to spec.
Wrong.
It is sold as a product an it's the product that has the warranty.
Your issue as a manufacturer vs supplier is completely different to your issue as manufacturer of the product v the consumer.
CapitainP makes another very valid point as well.
votchy - Member
I work for an Indian owned British car manufacturer and the expensive testing and development work we have to do so we can sell 12 cars in some obscure country is unbelievable.....our cars haven't increased in price anywhere near as much as the bike components
Bike industry has not benefited from tax handouts to manufacturers and scrappage schemes to keep it afloat so lets not go there.
ok please tell all
I followed the instructions, all bar the facing of the frame which I checked to be pretty damn perfect anyway. The cause of it's recent death was a river crossing and then dumping it in the shed for 3 weeks without stripping and cleaning it. I'd not normally strip and clean it but after a river crossing i think it's fair to expect it.
To be honest I dont believe that they do intense enough durability testing on parts. New parts, forks,frames are replaced with a new model every year and I dont believe that a year is enough development time to properly design, test and validate a design. So we end up being the durability testers for them which they can then feedback into old designs. things like cars have proving grounds that are designed to push them to the limit and they have multiple vehicles being used to make sure that everything is tested - and a lot of stuff still goes wrong. I dont think there is anywhere near the amount of intensive testing on mtb's and I would say the useage is a lot rougher.
I dont believe that a year is enough development time to properly design, test and validate a design
what makes you think something is only a year in design/dev/test?
They could be working on 2012 models right now
Hmmm, clumsy overweight weekend warriors breaking lightweight racing spec bike parts, funny that isn't it.......
what makes you think something is only a year in design/dev/test?They could be working on 2012 models right now
True and I thought of that before I responded but with overlapped development of stuff then they cant take all the lessons learned from one years failures especially with the high lead times I expect they have producing in the far east. i.e. there will only be evolution year on year without fully addressing all the issues
[i]"To be honest I dont believe that they do intense enough durability testing on parts". [/i]
WRONG, we have a bit of kit that simulates over ten years worth of riding, it sets the extremes of temperature sprays fresh and salt water etc, etc. Most companies that supply goods to the industry have this as well.
i heard years ago that the first electric filament lightbulb was still running in a castle in scotland somewhere. whether or not it's true i don't know, but the story illustrates nicely the point that over-engineering something can make it last 'indefinitely', so i'm afraid you're back to mr. bontrager's maxim.
i also can't help but chuckle when i see 'of course i didn't buy the article new, but who would have thought? the manufacturer didn't want to know when i asked about warranty!' 🙄
I hope the owner doesnt mind me reposting this pic (good effort BTW!)
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If you tried to warranty any part on this bike and showed the manufacturer the picture of how you rode it he'd be perfectly entitled to tell you to go p1ss up a lamp-post.
Customer expectation is the problem.