[Closed] Shimano 2011 - Is that it?

If all that matters to you is "next years greatest new thing", fair enough.

2 x 10 may not be for everyone, lets see how many are still riding it in 5 years.

Have you tried 2 x 10? It's not a question of "next year's greatest new thing", it has some distinct advantages that 3 x 10 completely misses. You can achieve the same gear range with much faster front shifting and a narrower Q factor, and less weight. All that Shimano have done is add the weight of 10 out back, whilst keeping the weight and complexity of 3 up front.

I guess you have a mobile phone? And a car? Perhaps a computer since you have posted your comment? Would you prefer a horse, a telegraph and an abacus perhaps? Once upon a time everything that we now take for granted was just "next year's greatest new thing". Even people who still talk with fondness about 8 speed forget to realise that once upon a time it was 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 and even 1 speed when it was the only option rather than a conscious choice. All of them were dismissed as "next year's greatest new thing" once.

There'll be a double chainset I reckon, they've just released the triple first.

On a triple I use the middle ring ~95% of the time. I am guessing that on a double, neither of the two rings would be smack bang in the middle of my preferred gearing range, so I would end up front-shifting a lot more.

That's why I ditched the big and small rings and went 1x9 - I think that's the main benefit of 10spd, 1x10 with an 11-36 cassette would make it a lot more feasible for a lot more people.

Njee, you may be right, but from the spy stuff released a few weeks ago, a double XTR was listed, but not in XT and SLX.

Given what SRAM have announced, I just think Shimano have missed a trick. It'll be 2012 before they catch up with 2 x 10 for the masses.

Poppa, I thought the same before I gave it a go. All I would say to anybody is don't knock it until you have tried it. It is very intuitive, very simple to pick up and offers all of the range of 3 x 9 without the wasted gears.

[i]All that Shimano have done is add the weight of 10 out back, whilst keeping the weight and complexity of 3 up front.[/i]

I think their argument is that by making the chainrings at the front closer to each other in diameter and having a larger block. FS bikes will work slightly better as you'll spend more time in middle ring which is the ring the pivot points are optimised around and both big and little ring will be closer to this sweet spot.
Whether it's noticeable in practice remains to be seen.

does anyone care? if you want 2x10 then go sram or you could mix and match sram chainset with shim 10speed stuff..

you still have to pedal

I am running 2 x 10 on a full susser with no adverse pedal induced feedback.

Agreed, you can happily use a mix'n'match of SRAM and Shimano, but I am sure Shimano would rather you used their stuff throughout, which makes it even stranger that they haven't launched it.

They need to swallow their pride and follow SRAM. Wouldn't be the first time. Just because somebody beat them to it, don;t be different just for the sake of it.

solarider - Member
Have you tried 2 x 10? It's not a question of "next year's greatest new thing", it has some distinct advantages that 3 x 10 completely misses. You can achieve the same gear range with much faster front shifting and a narrower Q factor, and less weight.

Yes I am still happily on 8 speed, but ride tubeless, and I browse the web on a phone. I guess my point is that not all "advances" are worth bothering about.

Forget ratio's. Have any of them put time and money into making a BB that doesn't turn into bobbins after a months worth of mud.?

am running 2 x 10 on a full susser with no adverse pedal induced feedback.

WTF it cuts out pedal bob whatever next!

[i]I am running 2 x 10 on a full susser with no adverse pedal induced feedback.[/i]

Yes, but you can also find people who say that are running 1 x 3 set-ups and 1x1 set-ups without adverse effects. And i'm sure they are.
What you now have is a different option to try, that's all.

You really are cynical aren't you!

8 speed may be fine, but there's no top end 8 speed stuff out there, so it weighs more, which to me, matters. The fact my 10 speed transmission is lighter, with a wider spread of gears makes it better in my opinion, totally aside from marketing crap, it also shifts a hell of a lot better, but I imagine that's the placebo effect of marketing and actually some 8 speed Alivio shifters from 1923 would actually shift better. I have no longevity issues, it works perfectly well in muddy conditions. You clearly have your opinions, if you don't want 10 speed that's just fine, why contribute to a thread about it?

2 x 9 does miss the point, just as 3 x 10 does.

The 10th cog out back gives you:

1) a small downhill gear, and
2) a large spinning gear, and
3) a usable range in between

9 compromises one of those three things.

3 x 10 achieves them but with a large, unecessary overlap of gears thrown in for good measure. That's my point. By all means release 10 speed out back, but make the most of what it offers by improving front shifting through a double set up. Whether it's just XX or whether the shiting is inherently better on 2 rings up front, the real revelation of 2 x 10 is at the front. All the back does is facilitate the 2 rings up front without losing gear range.

the sram xo & x9 2x10 groupsets look very nice over on bikeradar.

1. Who cares?

2. Not everyone can afford to spend £1000 on new groupsets for ALL their bikes and even if they did would they really sit hunched up by their laptop worry "OH NO....what will Shimano bring out next week?!"

3. I dont see any reason for swapping my current XTR. It's light, it shifts well, its stiffer than others, the chainrings last ages (compared to XT) and it was chuffin cheap when bought.

4. What's the REAL benefit of 2*10 I rarely ever come out of middle ring anyway.

5. [u]RIDE YOUR BLINGING BIKES FFS![/u]

My feet stickout like a ducks when I ride so the last thing I want is a narrow Q-factor.

I think another problem is that 2X10 carries an XC Race tag. I liked the idea of 2X10 thinking that would be fine as 95% of my riding is done in 1X9.
However after doing some enduros I found I needed the rarely used outer and the granny.
So I'm sticking with a lightweight well working usefull 3X9 for now

I had a fling with a Duo and changing over the massive ratio difference was hopeless.

having said that the 11-36 cassette is of interest for 1x10

LOL Daffy.

I am currently sat at my desk. I have no chance of riding my bikes right now. I am doing the mind-numbing job that enables me to afford the "blinging bikes".

Come the evening, come the weekend, I can assure you that's exactly what I will be doing. Why do people assume that people with expensive bikes don't ride them?

Fair point njee20, I guess SRAM & Shimano are preaching to the converted, which I am clearly not.

a narrower Q factor

My rides are always being spoiled by not having a narrow enough Q factor.

How are those ratios working in the real race world. On paper one looks like outer to granny and the other middle to granny I ask because most races I do use the middle and outer.

Can someone explain to me why 2x9 is so much worse than 2x10?

I have a 6 speed tourer, which has anoying gaps in the gears, but TBH can't tell the difference between 9s and 10s on the road.

I'll probably end up 2x10 as 2x9 suits me (26/38 up front) and suspension bikes will just move the pivot upto the 38t chainring and rely on propedal in the granny.

I do agree with the above commment about always being between gears though. On the road a compact means I'm always shifing up/down the front and always seem to have the chain crossed.

I like 9s over 8s for the lack of gaps, but cant say I regularly fall into the gaps in 9s. And still have an 8s drivetrain from my 4x bike which was used as even with no maintenance it always shifted and never skipped.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

I do agree with the above commment about always being between gears though. On the road a compact means I'm always shifing up/down the front and always seem to have the chain crossed.

Can someone explain to me why 2x9 is so much worse than 2x10?

It's not frankly, I've run 2x9 since 2006, however 10 speed does allow either a slightly higher top gear, or slightly lower bottom gear.

WTF is a "Q Factor"

i still ride 8 speed on the Hustler - 10 is for gayers

WTF is a "Q Factor"

I dunno but now I've heard of it I'm just not going to enjoy riding my bike again until I can get a narrower one. 😛

quack factor

HTH

Q-factor is the distance between the pedals.

In general, a narrow q-factor allows greater power output, and it's better for your knees and what not. It's a big thing on the road, and it looks to be coming to MTBs too, it's a big plus of BB30 systems as well.

How are those ratios working in the real race world.

I find the ratios pretty good, running 28/42 with an 11-36 XX cassette, doing the Southern XC at the weekend I dropped into the inner ring about 2-3 times in the race, running a 44 outer with a 34 I'd have spent a lot more time in the middle, particularly considering big/big becomes unusable.

this thread is as bad enough as listening to two of my mates talking about head angles and angle changing bearing kits....

in fact i might point them this way as they'd be well into it 😆

Having [b]invested[/b] in XX, I was slightly nervous about Shimano coming out with something amazing,

Why, because you're worried that someone else in the car-park might then have a 'better' bike than yours??

FFS.

of course it is, does it take into account different body builds then??? load of bollo x i'm going to cover my ears now and start singing a song

Glad to see that the STW cavemen have moved into the thread. Cue the end of sensible conversation and the usual ill-informed, jealous comments!

Yes, Talkemada, "invested". It cost a lot, it's nice kit and has definite benefits. That constitutes an investment in my book. It's an investment in a sport that I enjoy. Last time I checked that was well within the law of the land. I would never argue that you can have fun on cheaper kit, older kit, fewer gears etc etc, but it is each to his own. I chose to spend what I work hard to earn on kit that I feel provides me with a benefit. You clearly have some sort of chip on your shoulder about that, and it's probably best kept to yourself isn't it?

I never belittle anybody getting out and riding on any bike, but this good grace only sems to extend down the food chain. You have a nice bike, people heckle and begurdge it. You have a nice car, people key it. This country is full of bitterness.

Just get out, ride however many gears you run, with whatever Q factor, with whatever thoughts are running round your head! This is a forum supposedly for enthusiasts. I can never understand why people being enthusiastic about a sport that we supposedly share on common always attracts such negativity. Still, I guess that's life!

What song? I cant think of one for myself, maybe there is an XX song with an unbeleivable narrow Q factor, I am going to see if Simon Cowell has anything to offer on Twitter..

Dual ring is the way to go. Really don't understand people who feel they need 27 gears and a huge range.

njee20 - Member
Q-factor is the distance between the pedals.

In general, a narrow q-factor allows greater power output, and it's better for your knees and what not. It's a big thing on the road,

Yet more marketing TRIPE.

You have a nice bike, people heckle and begurdge it. You have a nice car, people key it. This country is full of bitterness.

😆

I think he was more taking the piss about the ridiculous neurotic worrying about Shimano coming up with something better than what you've got, rather than being jealous of having nice kit.

If you've splurged loads of money on good stuff why not just enjoy it instead of fretting that there might be something better around the corner?

RealMan - Member
Dual ring is the way to go. Really don't understand people who feel they need 27 gears and a huge range.

You clearly have some sort of chip on your shoulder about that, and it's probably best kept to yourself isn't it?

I used to be like you.I used to insist on having the very best XTR bits on my bike. A riding mate would be happy with LX/Deore, and laugh at me for spending so much money on stuff. And he'd kick my arse out riding, too.

Eventually I realised that having the latest and most expensive stuff makes bugger all real difference most of the time. Stuff wears out. Cheaper stuff is a little bit heavier than expensive stuff. From Deore up, it all seems to wear out at the same rate. More expensive stuff doesn't actually improve the overall enjoyment of riding a bike. Cheaper stuff is cheaper to replace, and you fret over it far less.

You mention being 'nervous' about Shimano coming out with something new, why? Aren't you happy with the XX kit? Scared that it might have some new fancy feature you've not got?

Just get on and enjoy it, and stop fretting about it. 🙄

[i]More expensive stuff doesn't actually improve the overall enjoyment of riding a bike[/i]

I disagree. I have XTR shifters and when I rode a bike with XT I missed the instant change.

@Talkemada

To be fair, i agree with Solarider on this point. It's not a case of him losing sleep, but if i'd spent out money on top of the range kit for it then to be marginally out dated, i'd probably be slightly annoyed.

The point you seem to be making is:

"More expensive stuff doesn't actually improve the overall enjoyment of riding a bike. "

Well this is surely your personal opinion? I feel happier on my bike with the components i've chosen through choice and not through money saved.

If people wish to make a thread on the latest and greatest, because that's what they're after, then i believe this is where the 'public' bit comes in, but for you to almost 'mock' them in a small way in their lack of experience you believe you have gained over the year with cheaper components seems a little strange.

This is why people drive Ferarris and Lambos when they come into money, it makes them happy to do so, yes, a fiesta might have more mileage and last longer, but they obviously gain enjoyment from having the best.

It's the same in most sports of this nature.

Well, I'm more into the riding, being with friends, enjoying the countryside/scenery, that sort of thing...

but if i'd spent out money on top of the range kit for it then to be marginally out dated, i'd probably be slightly annoyed.

Couple of years ago, I spent over £2000 on a computer. About a year later, it was superseded by a newer, faster, 'better' model. I'm not fussed. That's life. I don't waste time worrying about it. I just get on and use the thing.

I have a set of XTR shifters on one of my bikes. They are crisper and have lasted better than other shifters I've had. I appreciate certain items are worth the extra. I have no problem with anyone spending whatever they want on bikes or bits. Up to them.

I just think it's a bit silly that someone who has just 'invested' a load of money on something, is 'nervous' that something 'better might come along...

Talkemada.

How about enjoying your riding [b][u]and[/b][/u] enjoying doing it on nice kit? The 2 are not as you seem to think mutually exclusive.

The fact that your mates used to enjoy riding more on their less expensive kit is more a reflection on you than them. Are you seriously saying that you actually enjoy riding less now that you don't use XTR? This is just as unlikely as it is to suggest that somebody with nice kit enjoys their riding less. You are confusing enjoyment of riding and enjoyment of your bike.

It is possibe to have a nice bike, and enjoy riding it. It is also possible to have an old, cheap bike and enjoy riding it. I would never dismiss the latter, yet people do seem jealously motivated to dismiss the former. I say jealous, because why else whould they do it?

And, having invested in XX (yes, invested!), it would be nice to think that I'll get many seasons of enjoyment out of it, and get the benefit of its technology before it is superseeded. That's only natural. I tend to buy god kit partly because it lasts.

That's the beauty of planned obsolesence.....it keeps you nervous, and ready to spend

It is possibe to have a nice bike, and enjoy riding it. It is also possible to have an old, cheap bike and enjoy riding it. I would never dismiss the latter, yet people do seem jealously motivated to dismiss the former. I say jealous, because why else whould they do it?

Do you concede that being 'nervous' about a new groupset coming out in case it's better than yours isn't exactly a healthy attitude?

Are you seriously saying that you actually enjoy riding less now that you don't use XTR?

Eh?

If anything, I probably enjoy riding more these days, as I've got better on the bike, and have learned how to equip a bike that fits my needs. You can't buy experience.

I'm not knocking you having whatever kit you want on your bike. Up to you. I just think it's silly to fret over the possible 'benefits' that new kit might bring you. Just enjoy what you've got already.

If your rides may include a decent stretch of road, I would disagree.

Why? I do about 7 miles on the road to get to the trails. Is a 42/11 really not a big enough gear for your gargantuan power output?

Is there not a link here:

- People with cheap components: "expensive components don't improve enjoyment"
- People with nice components: "I enjoy riding more with nice components"

Whilst I could do all the riding I do on a £100 Apollo, it wouldn't be as much fun. On occasions when I've ridden demo bikes from the shop, say a £2000 Stumpy, it's not as much fun, it's substantially heavier than my own bikes and don't tend to work as well.

It's basically just reverse snobbery isn't it? Surely it's all about whether you can/want to buy the expensive stuff, which is a personal choice!

I must admit, I wouldn't have sold a perfectly good groupset to buy XX, if I had, I think I'd have been a bit disappointed, it's good, but not [i]that [/i]good. As it is, when building a new bike I will very likely opt for it, just as I would've opted for XTR/X.0 previously! Riding my bikes makes me happy, having nice bikes makes me happy, I spend very little money on anything other than bikes, so I'm happy to spend a lot for what may be deemed small gains.

Because you don't want to/can't afford to, and enjoy your riding just as much with Deore components doesn't really make any difference surely!

Now, one of your poor people, shine my shoes.

There's definately a place for it, but what I would like to see would be more ring choices so you could easily customise a chainset. I posted about this, pretty sure you can only get replacement rings in the same size.
The other thing is one bike owners like me. My MTB has to do everything and be ready for race day, so the extra 7 gears are worth it to me.

[i]Well, I'm more into the riding, being with friends, enjoying the countryside/scenery, that sort of thing... [/i]

So am I. But nice kit just adds to that pleasure. However I will agree that being "nrevous" about a new groupset is a bit odd. The only people who should be nervous are the people selling it, not the people buying it.

Grum - Nope. I think it only natural having splashed out on something new and shiny that you want it to stay new and shiny, and not be immediately superseeded.

And, let's get things in perspective. There's nervous and there's nervous! I am not laying awake at night worrying about Shimano's next attempt to ruin my otherwise perfect life!

But (shock, horror, hope you are sitting down for the next bit!), XX isn't perfect, and I am not in the habit of replacing kit until it wears out. So, if Shimano decided to address some of XX's shortcomings with XTR, I would naturally feel slightly disappointed with my purchase. Hence my "nervousness". Perhaps a combination of the wrong choice of phrase and a misunderstanding of intent.

I could of course go out and buy an 8 speed Alivio groupset, which apparently would improve my enjoyment of riding no end, but like a fool I prefer lighter, nicer, better performing kit. One day I'll see the light, but by then, even Alivio will be 2 x 10 as " next years big idea" will have become everyday, mundane and acceptable.

However I will agree that being "nrevous" about a new groupset is a bit odd.

+1

Everything will become obsolete at some point, particularly in this industry with constant brand one-upmanship!

Who cares?

It's just gears. The least interesting part of a bike.

And the one which can most commonly ruin a ride.

- People with cheap components: "expensive components don't improve enjoyment"
- People with nice components: "I enjoy riding more with nice components"

People with both: Life's too short to waste it worrying about the Next Big Thing... 😉

TBH, whenever I need a new bit, I just buy whatever's on special offer on CRC or whatever, as I'm sick of being ripped-off for stuff that costs peanuts to actually make. Deore/SLX/XT level is fine; offers a decent level of quality for the price. Next set of shifters I buy, I might go for XTR, as I know they are better than the lower models. Front mechs and stuff like that; pfft, Deore. Why waste money?

nah punctures do that

as long as your freehub works there's always a trail side fix

Funny, I'd have said that XTR shifters offer no performance advantage over Deore (though they feel smoother they don't actually affect the shift at the cassette) based on my experience of swapping between them...

Blimey, this thread has changed more times than Dr Who!

Who'd have thought such an unassuming discussion would have generated such debate?!

People with both: Life's too short to waste it worrying about the Next Big Thing

My commuter bike has Tiagra, it's sh1t. Even with brand new cables and cleaned perfectly the shifting is dire compared to the Dura Ace on my Madone, the brakes don't even compare either.

I don't worry about the 'next big thing' in fact, I don't give a sh1t about what it is per se, but if I think it's an appreciable upgrade, I'll buy it!

If XTR shifters feel better, isn't that a performance upgrade?

- People with cheap components: "expensive components don't improve enjoyment"
- People with nice components: "I enjoy riding more with nice components"

I like nice components if I can afford them but I am realistic about how much of an actual advantage they give you, and I try not to torture myself thinking about what might be out there that's better.

You can run teh same range of gears 2X9 as 2x10 just the spread is different, fairly easily done as well, yet it's not been hugely popular?

I'm quite happy to see how the early adopters get on with ten speed blocks, before passing any form of judgement.

The narrowness of the chain still worries me aprticularly the fact that 10speed powerlinks aren't reuseable, after a really nasty wet weather ride my chain comes off into a tub of degreaser and then gets washed and lubed, that option is removed without adding a new link to the chain, which I'm not mad about. At the moment that's the biggest issue for me.

To get advantage of the wide ratio block you're having to use cross over gears which makes the drive train less efficient and increases wear surely?

Or have teh wonders of ten speed cassettes suddenly made cross over gears a thing of the past?

I get that the chain line is reduced by only using two rings up front but that's all I run on a road bike and I try to avoid crossover gears like the? plague

If XTR shifters feel better, isn't that a performance upgrade?

Not IMO - they don't actually make the shifting any better, they just feel a bit more solid/less rattly. No performance advantage in what they're designed to do - eg move the rear mech.

A bit like having a deeply padded steering wheel on your car, say - it maybe feels a little nicer to hold but it steers the car exactly the same.

upgrading my shorts makes a smoother ride!!

...and, having a dump before hand makes me go faster to!

Deeply padded steering wheels are for mini cabs, along with beaded seat covers. And I would definitely disagree that it feels better.

Yey, another random change of direction for the thread!

Raouligan, to steal from Keith Bontrager:

2 x 9 - High Gear, Low Gear, Good Range inbetween - Pick 2
2 x 10 - High Gear, Low Gear, Good Range inbetween - Pick 3

I think the new Doctor is much better than that Godawful irritating **** Neil Tennant, and his new Assistant Amy Pond is miles better than Catherine Bleedin' Tate.

Speshly in that little policewoman's outfit...

[img] [/img]

The narrowness of the chain still worries me aprticularly the fact that 10speed powerlinks aren't reuseable,

KMC powerlinks are replacable, plus I've been using 10 speed chains on my MTB for about 18 months now - no problems.

The narrow chain is just fine. It has been well proven on the road for years now, proven over a winter off road, and there is not much about mud and conditions off road that would make the chain any more likely to break than it would on the road.

Chains stretch just the same, they flex just the same. The abrasion of off road conditions wears the chainrings, not the chain. Chains generally only wear and break by the action of stretching and flexing, not by abrasion. They are made of so much harder material than the rest of the drivetrain.

6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 speed chains have always been the same between road and off-road useage. The Dura Ace and XTR 9 speed chains were always identical.

I've had a middleburn duo for 11 years. It's run 7, 8 and 9 out back. Guess what the difference has been? Chuff all

njee20

Why? I do about 7 miles on the road to get to the trails. Is a 42/11 really not a big enough gear for your gargantuan power output?

Of course it is - but you don't have it on the double setups he was on about.

no way talkmada, sylvester mccoy is the dr who daddy

bigrich. Are you seriously saying that there is no difference between the range of usable gears and the spacing between 7 out back (14 in total) and 10 out back (20 in total)?

That's stretching it a bit surely? There are gears somewhere in the range that you simply don't have with 2 x 7 that you do with 2 x 10. On the basis of 'you don't miss what you have never had', then I agree with you, but factually, your statement doesn't hold up.

Blasphemy!

Tom Baker FTW (for those of a certain age)

jon pertwee wasnt bad even if he went on to greater thinks as wurzel gummage

S**T! Why did I mention bleedin' Dr Who?!!

1st the cavement take over the thread, now it's the sci-fi geeks!

What's wrong with bike geeks discussing bike gear with other bike geeks?!

And anyway, clearly Baker is the superior Dr Who. The new one wouldn't know the benefit of a 2 x 10 set up if it hit him in the face.

thanks, aunt sally !

Italspark; Original XTR (8spd?) was made of better metal than the current stuff. In fact, older Deore and Deore XT were probably actually better [i]quality[/i] than the current stuff. I've got wheels with old XT hubs, still running smoothly maybe 20 years on. Stuff then was undoubtedly heavier, but it lasted a lot longer than today's 'wear it out- chuck it out' crap.

Now, that was a groupset:

[img] [/img]

Yep.

Pedal until knackered then change up.

Although I was 18 when it was 7, 21 when it was 8 and fat when it was 9.

In conclusion, who cares? The only people who need 2x10 get given it for free.