About once in a decade I get curious about clipping in. Then I always do it with shoes that balance you on the ball of your foot on some borrowed pedals where you feel like you're standing on an ice cube.
I have noticed the trend for shoes with more rear set cleats. So can you set them up in a way that vaguely resembles a flat pedal foot position, or are they still forward of that? I want the axle in the middle of my foot so I'm not swinging by my toes when I drop my heels to plough through stuff.
The Giro Chamber II was one of the first that shouted about moving the cleats back but apparently it's only 10mm further than normal. The Bontrager rally is another one and the new Endura shoe. No numbers for how they measure up to regular disco slippers.
I'm not tied to a particular pedal brand. I'm not keen on Shimano. I don't like being fixed absolutely in one position and I never figured out how to stop my knees from hurting when pedalling like that. I want a platform so I'm not suspended on just the cleat but then how much grip or support can you feel? And if it's really grippy, how do you unclip?
I like the Hope pedals but that will make this an expensive experiment.
Should I just save my money and keep mashing away like a caveman?
Wondering the same. Road bike sitting mostly unused because SpD cleat position feels so wrong now that I’m used to flats off road.
Anyone using these shoes with more aft adjustment?
Nothing will get you into a proper flat pedal mid foot but most of the newer shoes are now good for getting the cleats way back from xc ball of the foot position. Crank bros, specialized 2fo, 5.10 hellcat. I use these from Ride Concepts https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Ride-Concepts-Transition-MTB-Shoes_215458.htm?sku=678315&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Clothing%20%3E%20Shoes%20%3E%20MTB%20shoes&utm_content=Ride+Concepts&gclid=CjwKCAjw44mlBhAQEiwAqP3eVrI7XCFdIKVY69tS7cPehegyJa-BLQTu2oEXNlsM5PK4PnzCWBd06BoC-sIQAvD_BwE not a bad price if they have your size.
Pedal wise, I’m loathed to recommend but…..crank bros mallet dh are unbeatable, the brass cleats are a stupid move and they need regular servicing/bushing & bearing changes but they are the best by far, you don’t have to be as precise clipping back in, if you don’t find the perfect position you can ride it out until it bounces you in. Top tip if you get a set - wind the pins down so they are almost flush with the body, otherwise with a grippy shoe you will struggle to unclip. I got sick of replacing cleats (my local push up spot just wore them down too quick) and I had a bad run of a bent axle, then a body, then a spring, then they needed a service etc etc (not all at the same time….) so I moved to some nukeproof horizons which are still decent and have a good platform but are very much like shimano in the clipping in and out sense - as in you need to be precise. Hopes look very much the same as my nukeproofs.
I regularly go from clips to flats and back across various bikes, both feel very natural and once you get used to clips they can be great in the choppy stuff, I find they make me ride more committed and feet up as well. Flats for fun, clips for racing for me.
crank bros mallet dh are unbeatable, the brass cleats are a stupid move and they need regular servicing/bushing & bearing changes but they are the best by far,
+1, I only use clips and currently using Shimano ME7 shoes with the Mallet DH. Ive used Shimano AM9 shoes in the past but prefer the stiffer sole of yhe ME7'S these days. As already stated it does help if you spend a bit of time setting the pins up and the brass cleats do wear out a LOT faster than steel, a bit of hike a bike and u'd be lucky to get 6 months
I don't plan on switching
Yeah, most trail/enduro/downhill shoes will now allow you to slam the cleats far enough back to give a similar feel to a flat pedal position. Even in the old days of the Shimano DX/AM45 you could achieve this with a bit of Dremmeling to the sole.
Shoes are fairly personal choice but I like the Shimano AM7/9 for the mtb and the ME11 for the gravel bike, all plenty of room to have the cleats as far back as you’d need. Pedals I’m a big fan of HT, they’re as positive to clip in/out as a Shimano pedal but more like a Mallet when riding - there are also a range of cleats to tune how much float you want.
You can get adapter plates for your current shoes. Whether they work…
Always clipped in here. Ball of foot over pedal axel.
Might be worth a bike/cleat fit - was always told to ride with ball of my foot over the axle, flat or clipped.
This review makes a point about long cleat slots and getting that comfy foot position. Luckily the shoes are available for much less than RRP
https://off.road.cc/content/review/shoes/fox-union-clip-shoe-review-12417
Might be worth a bike/cleat fit – was always told to ride with ball of my foot over the axle, flat or clipped.
I definitely don't need a bike fit to tell me how terrible that feels. Especially in rough terrain when your toes are being folded up to your shins and your hamstrings are about to exit the vicinity.
I still think they could be further back. All the press releases talk about longer cleat position, but they all seem to be much further forward than I’d ride with flats.
Luckily Shimano AM shoes allow you to dremmel the slots further back. My 5:10 Greg Minnaars didn’t.
Here’s someone who knows a thing or 2 about bikes.
Fabian on cleat placement
Ball over the foot is an xc/roadie setup imo. For dh, steep tech (enduro if you like) etc riding with the pedal axle on the balls of your feet is horrendous, feels like you’re riding on your tip toes. Riding with the cleat more mid foot allows you to load the bike better, yes you lose a bit of efficiency but it’s way better for pushing the bike into the ground when riding tech. All subjective of course…..but I am right 😂
Here’s someone who knows a thing or 2 about bikes.
Well there you go, he said what I'm thinking but with a cooler accent.
That video is 12 years old I wonder if any shoe manufacturers saw it.
I recently went back to clips after a few years on flats. Nukeproof Horizon are my pedal of choice and I bought a pair of the cheapest SPD compatible shoes; Terrex 5-10. I'm running the cleats as far back as possible and it seems quite flat-alike.
was always told to ride with ball of my foot over the axle, flat or clipped.
Ball over the foot is an xc/roadie setup imo.
There have been a few moves on that in the decades since that was lore.
Try with the axle around 8-10 mm behind the ball. Adjust position to match (usually only need to move the saddle half of the change forwards and a couple of mm down. Bars i leave where they are.)
I got better stability, less fatigue, higher sustainable power (not much, but paired with the increase in comfort/stability, it's not to be sniffed at) and a smoother feeling pedal stroke.
If you go too far back you might start to lose a bit of ultimate sprint acceleration. But the speed should still be there.
I've been experimenting the last decade or so and come to a reasonable compromise between what the shoes will do, buying patrocleats for the road shoes and so on.
It's definitely something to experiment with if you have the time and inclination.
Modern clippy shoes... SPD have been out 33 years, and road clipless a little longer.
The 5.10 Impact VXi can have the cleat a long way back, certainly much further back than I'd ever wanted it. The soles don't play too well with the pins on Mallets though, which are the best pedals IMO.
I currently have ME7 shoes and Mallet DH/E on my bikes.
Modern clippy shoes… SPD have been out 33 years, and road clipless a little longer.
But cleated shoes, and ball of foot over axle have been around for decades
So can you set them up in a way that vaguely resembles a flat pedal foot position, or are they still forward of that?
Yeah, sort of, but not as far back as you'd probably ride with flats. Modern shoes are getting better for having longer cleat slots, most of the "enduro" type shoes, Ride Concept, Spesh F20 and the like, and even some XC-ish shoes Spesh Recon have much longer slots than they used to have, match them with caged SPDs and it's "sort of" like having a flat pedal. The main difference of course is the firmness of the sole, you obviously get more feel in a flat pedal shoe, and you can load the outside/inside of the pedal more easily, you need to experiment with the cleats more, as well as forwards/back, to decide how the cleat points to make your heel come into/or away from the bike.
who rides with the pedal under their midfoot?
that's just weird.
having it under the ball of your foot gives more flex and allows for greater control when dropping heels on the steeps.
maybe the reason why it's hard to find shoes with a slammed rear position is because it's not right
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I tried some on the Slayer a couple of weeks ago..
Jeeez they were uncomfortable. I don't know how my position of foot differs in riding Flats, but it's VERY different to being on cleats... i think my foot sides more 'outside' on the pedal, so i'd need a bigger gap on the axle. Maybe.
The one thing i do know is, it felt awful.....Made me instantly remove the idea of getting my own set/pair.
In their defence, the shoes were 1 size too small... but i don't think that was the overall factor.
who rides with the pedal under their midfoot?
that’s just weird.
having it under the ball of your foot gives more flex and allows for greater control when dropping heels on the steeps.
maybe the reason why it’s hard to find shoes with a slammed rear position is because it’s not right
They're not right in the middle of the foot though are they? They're just about 10-15mm further back than roadie and XC shoes. We're trying to differentiate the new style from the old ones.
Also I don't think dropping your heels when you're perched on the ball of your foot has the effect you think it does. You want to try standing on a flat pedal with the strongest part of your foot then dropping your heels and feeling the difference you have in strength and support.
It's hard to explain but imagine balancing on a thin metal pole and having to do some squats. What part of your foot would you place on the pole?
Fox spell it out on my shoes
They do look like the best option for shoes. I might have to wait until pay day to see how I feel about clipping in. It might pass before then!
After a decade + of clipping in, all types of shoes, cleat spacers, insoles, I've gone back to flats, my feet and knees feel better for it, I've got more confidence on really techy stuff, especially in the wet
I recently did a long commute (120km) in clips & my specialised BG shoes I'd spent a while setting up - my feet ached liked mad, I think it was not being able to change foot oosition
With decent pedals and flat pedal shoes that now have decent uppers (ie not extra padded skate trainers) I can't see a single reason to go back to the compromises of clipless
because it’s not right
Everyone's different. luckily there's a massive amount of different shoes and pedals that we can all try to get the best set up for each of us. God bless late-stage capitalism.
Those Fox shoes do look the business. Expensive to “try” though… I’ll watch later sales.
Another horizon pedal user with cleats as far back in the shoe as they'll go here. I can't ride flats anymore so it's a non-starter but the only thing I really miss from them is not having to clip in at the top of chutes if I've stopped (and half the time I fail to clip in so leads to some moments...).
what’s the “failure mode” of crank brothers cleats? Can’t get out (like Shimano) or unclog too easily (like time)
what’s the “failure mode” of crank brothers cleats?
Is not "failed" the default mode for all Crank Bros componentry?
There isn't much to fail on crank brothers pedals. If the spring somehow breaks then your foot will just fall out. I did put off servicing a mallet-e a little too long and have the pedal body fall off the axle though... (the bearing cart disintegrated). Similar to above, I got fed up of servicing them too often and the cleats being made out of cheese which is why I swapped to horizons.
edit: just reread that word was cleats not pedals. I did thousands of km in crank brothers cleats and never had an issue (even in the cheap knock-off versions), they just become less good at holding you in as they wear out.
I've always ridden flats with the ball of my foot in the well in fron tof the axle - has always felt the most natural position and seems to tie with others experience.
There is a school of thought that even further forward - the pedalling innovations Catalyst is an enormous 143mm long with the idea that your foot sits on it with a genuine mid foot placement. I can't get over how weird this would feel or how awful the pedals look so I've never tried them but those that have tried them often love them and the foot position they encourage.
Leatt shoes had the furthest rearward clear position I could find. I had a pair on sale somewhere. Could still do with a bit more rearward range but pretty good.
Ive found the fizik atlas shoe has lots of rearward adjustment to get a flat pedal position with a clip in. The quocc shoes I got sent for review are lovely, very comfy but that cleat pocket is so forward, even slammed back as far as they will go they make me feel like I'm en pointe all the time
what’s the “failure mode” of crank brothers cleats? Can’t get out (like Shimano) or unclog too easily (like time)
You unclip too easily.
CB cleats are brass so that they wear out rather than wearing out the wings on the clipping mechanism. This is necessary as engagement is more of a vertical "stamp" in than the toe-in/heel down method used by Shimano.
Wear is mostly caused by walking in them on stony ground. If your trails are more loamy, or you don't have to walk much in them, they last "forever".
Im on 510 hellkats and shimano goretex boot mw107? things for winter
both cleats slammed back, rotated towards my big tow, so basically if i rotate my heal inwards at all it unclips, but has most float outwards, i'm on multi release,mid tension on the pedals
running dmr v twin pedals on the mtbs and shimano 520s on the gravel bike, both shoes play nicely with both sets of pedals, not an enormous amount of precision required to get onto the vtwins as the clip rotates to help engagement
maybe the reason why it’s hard to find shoes with a slammed rear position is because it’s not right
Except a lot of science and physiological/biomechanical research is saying it's better for a lot of things than having ball over axle.
The only *major* things that get worse is how fast you can increase your power output and out of saddle climbing, but you need to be waaaaaaay back for that, approaching a full midfoot position.
I was quite surprised by my new Leatt 6.0 Clip shoes. Despite making a thing about how far back you could get the cleats, and having some cute graphics on the sole, I couldn't get them as far back as I could with my ancient Shimano SH-M162 shoes.
As an experiment I spent a year 100% riding clips rather than the usual “tried it a few times, didn’t like it” on my MTB, Road bike, spin classes and on the pump track. When the time came to do back to back testing on trails I know I was pretty much as fast or slow on flats or clips so I went back to flats.
I tried to minimise variables so had 5Ten GM clip shoes and 5Ten Sam Hill flats, same bikes, etc. I wasn’t any quicker on descending (even with flats I tend to not put my foot down or out when cornering or drifting/sliding) nor was I any quicker climbing so I went back to flats as they’re more comfy.
I even tried flats on my road bike, and the results were similar. But I kept the clips for a while due to toe overlap with the front wheel. Now I’m on a longer road bike it has my old MK1 Penthouse Flats and again over the whole ride I’m about the same speed (maybe a tad slower climbing), but more comfortable as roadie shoes are torture devices if you have wide feet and can’t afford the £££ for fancy wide Lake shoes.
i too thought like this
makes no difference on climbs, no difference on descents.. yada yada
but.. 9 months in, I'm starting to learn... I can pedal flat out anywhere on any surface, ie over root gardens etc that would usually buck my foot...
I can relax on my hardtail as I hit some ungoldy roughness
when I'm tired on a climb I can concentrate on using the pull of the pedals to give me some respite
jumping, either on take offs or or other small obstacles is super easy to initiate and control
Only place I still ride flats is on my commute, basically because.. I'm not riding over rough stuff, I'm not sprinting..i don't need ever % of advantage I can get
The efficiency of cleated shoes and pedals is going to depend on your pedalling style. Most folk I see are just mashing up and down so they're unlikely to get any gains from being clipped in. If your foot is too far forward then you are already limiting yourself in that regard. For absolute speed, power and endurance there's no contest but that doesn't matter for lots of folk, or for most rides.
If your foot is too far forward then you are already limiting yourself in that regard.
Ljungskog won one(?) of her WCs on midfoot cleats. So it's obviously not that limiting.
And Adam Hansen used it for several years, event dependent
i put my clipless pedals bach on after 4 years of flats. the were horrible!
as someone said above, like standing on an ice cube. undoubtedly more efficient climbing with a rigid sole and possibly faster all round, but ive come to enjoy the feeling of flat pedals and my feet being where they want to be. the idea of clipping myself to the pedals somehow seems “unnatural” to me at the moment.
and flat shoes are much better if you have to walk home if something on your bike breaks mid-ride.
Funny how we're all different. I can see the advantage of descending anything techy with flats as it allows you to dab - certainly was a bit disconcerting when I picked up MTB again a few years back and being clipped in, but I've got used to it now, as all my riding is 'clipped'. Same goes with my mates, but we've all got a road background, but mix in MTB and gravel.
i was clipped in from the moment SPD arrived in the UK. then when i built my current bike i had the pedals from my fat bike to hand, put them on and never thought twice about it
Funny how we’re all different.
another revelation from riding a fat bike was the wide q-factor. i found it so much more natural than the 172mm that seems to have been the arbitrary standard.
i now have the boost (55mm chainline) xt cranks that are about 180mm wide, wide XT pedals with pedal washers. i’ve never been as comfortable.
I've just picked up some lightly used Mallet DH on Ebay to try. But need cleats - genuine CB seem like £25?>!?
Are the £10 Chinese Ebay jobbies just as good?
(I've been clipped in since forever, for many years on Time until they became unrepairable and I started breaking them. Maybe 3 years on Shimano now.
Rode flats for 6 months or so off road but went back. Switched to flats on my commute bike though. With slammed rear cleats on modern shoes theres negligible difference between the position I ride on flats to clips and I'm always in the 'right' position - which most of the time on flats I never felt I was in)
I tried some cheap CB cleats once and they weren't offset (the top/bottom tabs should be offset slightly left/right). I think the standard CB ones can be switched round to give either 15 or 20° of float. 20° is way too much IMO and will have you falling over because you can't get your foot out. The cheap copies I tried weren't offset so had fixed float that I assume would be 17.5° which didn't work well for me.
What I will say is that my cleats have lasted for years so the slight extra expense wasn't an issue.
CB cleats are not cheap but are better than the copies.
depends on your riding. i ride quite hard so i like the piece of mind the proper cleats bring. if i was XC riding, or not doing anything stupid, the copies would probably be OK.
I had a similar debate when I moved back to clips.
I've gone with the Crank Bro's Mallet Boa's - not cheap but I really like them.
Crank Bro's pedals start off feeling nice but the soft cleats do wear quicker than most and the first you'll know is an unscheduled nac-nac when you pull up off something 🙂
I really like the Hope Union DH pedals as you can change the pins and plastic supports to get quite a natual "flat" like feeling
Chinese cb cleats work just fine and I'm riding them hard.
re the riding on ice cubes comments
I had this on my dual sided pedals, the SPD mechanism stood proud with no platform support whatsoever, foot would swivel, and gave hot spot on the cleat
Since then i have discovered that it isn't like that at all, using the DMRs with a big platform, no issues, even using Shimano 520's, the platform is essentially a 10mm strip at each end of the spd, still reasonable grip with no swimming about
flat shoes are much better if you have to walk home if something on your bike breaks mid-ride.
Again, very much depends upon the surface you're walking on. Flat shoes tend to have minimal tread depth and so slither about on wet grass, mud and peat. I'd rather have a SPD sole with decent tread (though, TBF, if I'm expecting lots of hike-a-bike I'll often opt for walking boots and some Nukeproof Electrons).
@b33k34 I've no idea about the clone cleats. My genuine cleats just keep working so I've had no reason to look at cheaper alternatives.
My wife switched to clips years ago on her DH and enduro bike because she kept getting her feet bucked off the pedals (even with decent flat pedals and 5Tens). But then I’m a lot heavier than she is so maybe that helps me keep my feet planted. I can’t remember a time when my feet got rattled off the pedals.
Again, very much depends upon the surface you’re walking on
true, i was thinking about it being actually easier to walk. that said, im comparing five tens to 15 year old rigid sole with molded in plastic bits for “grip”. i suspect things have moved on.
@b33k34 I've got a brand new set of CB cleats that I need to sell. Came with CB shoes but I use Shimano/Nukeproof pedals so no use to me.
Oh and the CB shoes are excellent, really comfy and you can set the cleats a long way back. Not very old so can't comment on durability yet
@fathomer. DM me
I’ve had a pair of mallet shoes for a while - they’re lasting well - but I sold the cleats!
true, i was thinking about it being actually easier to walk. that said, im comparing five tens to 15 year old rigid sole with molded in plastic bits for “grip”.
I expect you can still buy the rigid sole shoes, but my 2FOs feel pretty similar to five tens for walking in really - the soles are soft and the cleat isn't really pronounced.
I found neither official or cheap CB cleats lasted long, but official ones certainly longer. I don't (can't) do much walking on my rides but I can imagine I might clip in/out more than other people do.
I too couldn't remember when I had issues keeping my feet on flat pedals, but then I'm certain I couldn't push/pull/pedal quite the same as when clipped in. In fact, I think that if I went back in a few months to flats I'd end up getting pedals scrapes.
re walking, my 510's aren't xc shoes, they are no different to walk in than my Shimano flats.
you can't just try clipless and reap the benefits.. you need to live in them for it all to become second nature, I don't even think you can flip between flats and clips as you'll never develop that muscle memory for one or the other. I'm not just talking clipping and unclipping, I'm talking riding as a whole. obviously mileage will vary, depending on how/where you ride.
I don't think this has been posted but is vaguely interesting (it doesn't make any difference to my riding but a good watch) -
don’t even think you can flip between flats and clips as you’ll never develop that muscle memory for one or the other. I’m not just talking clipping and unclipping, I’m talking riding as a whole. obviously mileage will vary, depending on how/where you ride.
Both Peaty and Greenland disagree in the above video but they do basically live on bikes so...
you might be right, ill try flats in a few months to see if i have unlearened
I'll echo what @alan1977 says. You've really got to live clipless if you are using them. I can see where flats are a benefit for enduro/DH, but everywhere else clipless can be better, and essential in some cases (road).
All my 5 bikes are clipless. Both road bikes use old Look Delta pedals, but these are top of the range and have a really strong hold - you aren't unclipping by accident. The commuter MTB, FS and CX bike are all running SPD, the FS has the wider trail XT pedals, the other two, normal small SPD's (XT and M520) The FS has the trail pedal as you do get somewhere to keep an un'clipped foot, especially if you may need to dab.
Even if just doing a family pootle, and if using one of the SPD bikes, I've got some SPD trainers ! If I'm pootling on the road bikes, I have to take it really steady if in trainers as I'm not clipped at all.
I'd find it difficult to use flats. Always clipped in.
you can’t just try clipless and reap the benefits.. you need to live in them for it all to become second nature, I don’t even think you can flip between flats and clips as you’ll never develop that muscle memory for one or the other. I’m not just talking clipping and unclipping, I’m talking riding as a whole. obviously mileage will vary, depending on how/where you ride.
I'm equally at home on either - and have ridden both on MTB's for 30 odd years - more clipped in than flats though
Just switched from clips on the big bouncy ebike back to flats and much preferring it.
Took the flats off the HT and put the clips on that. Jump on either and go for a ride without really thinking about it tbh
I have moved my cleats as far back as possible in all my mtb shoes.
Only thing I have noticed is sometimes trying to unclipped at certain crank angles the front of my shoes interferes with the cranks and struggle to unclip.
I've got some CB cleats somewhere, they came with my lovely Mallet shoes but I use Shimano pedals and have no intention of switching. I'll post here if I find them.