Up until recently I was riding my road bike with MTB shoes and pedals and it was ok.

However a mate was giving away a pair of Fizik road shoes in my size so I had them and got some Shimano road pedals to match.

I can’t seem to get the road cleats far enough back on the shoes and it feels like I’m pedalling with the bit between the ball of my foot and toes rather than the axle being directly underneath the ball of my foot ?

Is this the normal position or is there anything you can suggest I’m doing wrong?

Road shoes do normally have the cleat further forward, there’s a lot of research as to why this is good or bad, but irrelevant, it is what it is. I have a vague recollection that Fizik are even further forward than most though that may be rubbish.

In truth, it may just be that you need to get used to the new position as much as anything. Put them as far back as they go, get some miles in and accept the odd bit of muscle discomfort as you get used to it.

since you got the shoes for free, take a look and see if you can extend the slots back a bit with a dremmel. Then you might be able to slide the threaded plate a bit further back

… that’s if they use a loose threaded plate, of course

For peddling I prefer my cleats further forward as you engage your calf muscles more and they are a very strong muscle. however on my MTB I do mount them further back and compromise pedalling efficiency a bit for comfort and control on the descents where I find it easier to balance on the bike with the cleats further back. But on my road bike I would miss the extra power the calves provide. Imagine trying to run without being able to push off from the front of your foot.

Best option is to have different shoes and pedal system for MTB and road.

Fizik and northwave have quite far forward and minimal
Adjustment for cleats. Shimano have an extras few mm’s
Of adjustment.
You could swap to speedplay which have an optional extender
Plate to add extra foie and aft.

For peddling I prefer my cleats further forward as you engage your calf muscles more and they are a very strong muscle. however on my MTB I do mount them further back and compromise pedalling efficiency a bit for comfort and control on the descents where I find it easier to balance on the bike with the cleats further back. But on my road bike I would miss the extra power the calves provide.

Definitely this.

OP you are probably hyper aware of something different/new.

Just checked my road shoes vs my mtbs, the cleats are if anything little further back on the former.

But on my road bike I would miss the extra power the calves provide. Imagine trying to run without being able to push off from the front of your foot.

You are comparing a few mm of cleat position to having no foot!

Are there any studies proving this? I doubt it, if there was a measurable difference in power output we’d know about it because it’s easy to measure.

From Bike Fit by Phil Burt.
“Foot/ Pedal interface
The final piece of the puzzle is setting up your foot/ pedal interface, or in other words getting your cleats in the right place on your shoes.
If you are not using a clipless pedal system, you do not need to worry about this section, your feet will find their own happy place on a flat pedal. However, if you are using the modern clipless pedal this section needs careful attention. Cycling is a sport of repetition, and the average cyclist makes 80 revolutions per minute – that’s 5400 revolutions an hour, Which position you choose to lock your foot – and thereby knee and therefore whole lower limb – in to the pedal is a big deal. Its the flip side of being locked into the bike and able to apply as much possible power to the pedal without wasting energy trying to stabilise the foot/ pedal interface. If you are locked in incorrectly, you are open to any number of potential over use injuries.

Fore/ Aft
The generally accepted rule of thumb for fore/aft positioning of the cleat is to align the ball of the foot with the centre line of the pedal axle (spindle) in the 3 o’clock position. The ball of the foot 9the first head of the metatarsal joint) is the big bony protrusion just behind the big toe. This is where people commonly get bunions. Traditionally this has been placed over the pedal spindle as it provides the largest contact area of the foot directly above the pedals axis of rotation, and therefore maximises the biomechanical advantages of the foot to produce optimal power output.

…………

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The correct positioning of the pedal fore/ aft is important for a number of reasons . A forward positioned cleat (and so the foot further back) results in a more up and down movement of the heel as it pivots around a longer lever arm and can result in Achillies issues. It also affects the overall bike setup by changing the relative position of the foot in relation to the knee.

A rearward positioned cleat (and so the foot further forward ) helps spread the pressure created when pedalling over more of the foot and specifically the midfoot – this can help people reduce forefoot pain (often termed ‘hotfoot’).

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The simple argument is that shortening the lever arm of the foot/ ankle pedal/ cleat interaction you adopt a position that is biomechanically more advantageous for the transfer of power. To date research in this area has been limited.

Myth Buster
Set your cleats as far forward as possible.
Not as widely held these days, but I still see plenty of people doing it.
The rationale used to be that by doing this and creating a longer lever (i.e. distance from ankle joint to foot on pedal) you could generate more power. There’s a growing opinion that positioning the cleat much further back may actually be the best position for power production.
….
……”

That’s a very interesting read. Thanks.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VMkEBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=phil+burt+power+transfer+to+pedal&source=bl&ots=pO9T8GYGI6&sig=ACfU3U0hidFVV7CZts8rOAzmwfShuUy5xw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwim3amY3b_oAhXjoFwKHWajBk0Q6AEwAXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=phil%20burt%20power%20transfer%20to%20pedal&f=false

POWER TO THE PEDAL – CLEAT POSITION

ROAD PEDALS – WHICH ARE BEST?

Or you can just try for yourself and see what you think. I’ve tried my cleats in various positions and know what works best for me in a given situation. The pwoermeter tells me what’s the best for power. Look at the animal kingdom…animals have the same physiology than us but their limb sizes are different proportions and the reason they run better is that their skeleton exploits the mechanical advantage of what we consider our heal to ball of foot distance so the calf muscle can be engaged more.

Look at para-athletes running on blades. They generate significantly less power due to the absence of an ankle and ability to engage the calf muscle at all which is why they need the spring. Sprinters and runners use their calf muscles as their primary muscle..sprinters run on their toes.

Just because someones written a paper on something doesn’t mean it’s true. 99.9% of scientific papers are discredited and never see the light of day again.

You are comparing a few mm of cleat position to having no foot!

Don’t understand this…I never mentioned anything about having no foot…but yes, a few mm’s makes all the difference…the difference between the cleat position being on the ball of the foot (no point it being ahead of the ball) and a few mm’s behind. Still engaging my calves in my MTB on climbs with a more rearward cleat position just not as much as I do on my road bike, but having the cleat position slightly more rearward means that on descents with my heel being low in the classic heel down position the ankle is less bent, with the calf not being as stretched as much generating less fatigue in the calves on the descents.

Everybody’s different so experiment and see what works for you. The rule is there are no rules so whatever works for you is the right. On crank length, on bike fit, on cleat position…everyone is different. Look at the pro peloton and you’ll see a huge variety in all of those parameters…there isn’t one rule that suits all. Same in mountain biking and any sport.

This guy seems to know his stuff, and isn’t a fan of Speedplay. I went from Speedplay to Shimano pedals with blue cleats and much prefer the support.
My cleats seem to end up getting further and further rearwards and I haven’t found a disadvantage yet.

Thanks for all the replies.

I’ve adjusted the cleats as far back as they got and it just isn’t far enough. They are still ahead of the ball of my foot for some reason.

I’ve ordered a pair of Shimano MTB SPD pedals so I can try my MTB shoes and see if it feels any better.

One thing I’m also not getting used too is the way you clip into road SPD compared to MTB SPD and have slipped a few times which has knocked my confidence in them a bit.

http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/01/cleat-position.html

Technical FAQ: Rearward cleat positioning, wheel lifespan and corrosion

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/Which-Muscles-are-Really-Used-During-the-Pedal-Stroke-2012.html

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a20036285/steve-hogg/

I’ve adjusted the cleats as far back as they got and it just isn’t far enough. They are still ahead of the ball of my foot for some reason.

Sure you’ve got the right sized shoe? on both my MTB and my road shoes the slot for the cleat nuts can be adjusted from over the ball of my foot to behind it.

My cleats seem to end up getting further and further rearwards and I haven’t found a disadvantage yet.

So what’s the benefit of having them more rearward then other than comfort, and, as in my experience on the MTB to get more stability in certain circumstances? if there is no benefit then there is no wrong or right and just put them in a position that is most comfortable and feels right for you rather than advocating them in any position at all. We’re all individuals here and can feel for ourselves whether something feels right or not.

To me after experimentation I can put more power down with the cleats under the ball of my foot…as measured on my power meter. But I have very strong calves and tend to prioritise that muscle where I can..others might not have such strong calves and prioritise other muscle groups which they might want to engage more on the bike. On my MTB I moved them back for more control and stability and to reduce calf fatigue on downhills. But feel like i’m losing power on the climbs (no power meter on the MTB).

Similar experience on the spin bike….cleats on the ball of my foot i put out more average power through better calf engagement. And an another benefit is I can raise the seat a few mm’s more to get that additional squirt of power approaching BTC to extend the power stroke a bit.

Do what feels right for you. That’s what the pro’s do who have access to all the sports scientists and equipment and they vary in their choice of crank lengths, cleat positions, gearing, bike positon on the bike etc. We’re all different.

So what’s the benefit of having them more rearward then other than comfort, and, as in my experience on the MTB to get more stability in certain circumstances? if there is no benefit then there is no wrong or right and just put them in a position that is most comfortable and feels right for you rather than advocating them in any position at all. We’re all individuals here and can feel for ourselves whether something feels right or not.

First started moving them rearwards on my MTB when I stopped racing XC because I preferred the stability coming of jumps and on rough terrain. Replicated that with my road bike and it seemed to cure numb toes or tingling in my feet. I don’t advocate the position but it solved some issues for me.