[Closed] Look what they have they done to Carron Valley!

boo hoo

😈

WTF is the point of a chicken run on that?? Let alone two of them... 🙄

Yup, was up there Saturday morning for the first time in a while and was disappointed when I saw what had been done. Hardly bodes well for the work being done to the runway section.

As one of the more tame trail centres that was one of the few bits that I looked forwards to. Never exactly top of my list of places to go but good for a blast when up visiting the inlaws.

Humph. I fail to see what they have achieved really. Put a chicken run in if you must but there needs to be something to justify a chicken run. Not 3 flavours of dull.

WTF is the point of a chicken run on that?? Let alone two of them..

This puzzled me. Why two? I just don't understand...

that looks horrendous.

nightmare.take it the swear filter is bust then 😀

In the previous Grand Scheme of things Kelpies Staircase was to become an uphill climbing section instead of a downhill- maybe that explains the regrading and the other options? 😕

Only did a few laps of CV once but that staircase was the one 'challenging' section. Dumbing down of the highest order.

Weren't they doing something to 'runway' as well, presumably to slow down the air-hunters?

Erm ... which one's are the chicken runs then, they all look more or less the same to me?? Apart from the right one having a bit of a dip in it??

Weren't they doing something to 'runway' as well, presumably to slow down the air-hunters?

It was all fenced off with no entry signs - I'm not the kinda guy that can ignore them 🙁

Plus I didnt want to see after kelpies...

Cripes!
My three-year old could ride that and then announced he's bored.

Try skidding your back tyre, that'll open it up nicely!

I think you'll find it is in response to OGB37 by which the FC are introducing standardised trail grading across the UK estate. Everything more than mildly interesting has to have alternative (chicken) routes so peeps don't get nasty surprises once they have committed themselves to a section. At least that is the FC take in my area.

Try skidding your back tyre, that'll open it up nicely!

hehehe - I actually think that given a good winter the outside chicken run might turn into a swamp anyway 🙂

Is that part of a climb or a descent?

PLaying devil's advocate here but...

"Carron Valley was a red (mostly easy) but with one superb feature called Kelpies Staircase. Kelpies was the reason that CV was a red - a nice rocky steep bit."

"Only did a few laps of CV once but that staircase was the one 'challenging' section."

If there's only one feature that made the route a red, or which is significantly above the difficulty of the rest of the trail, it makes sense to squash it. Having one harder part in an otherwise easy trail is generally a pretty bad idea, it doesn't even need to be hard to catch people out once they've mentally reset the difficulty level to "easy". I guess this could be with a mind towards regrading the whole trail, or could equally just be about levelling the difficulty across the trail.

Having said that, the best solution to that's to signpost it and if need be chicken run it, not to demolish the whole thing 🙁 I looked at a video justnow and it looks like there was an unofficial chicken run formed down the left hand side already, FC absolutely hate that, and tend to treat it as riders voting with their tyres and saying "We don't like this section"... But it shouldn't have to be all or nothing. It doesn't even make much sense since it'd be less work to build a clear, well surfaced chicken run and bash in a couple of posts.

The outer chicken run in the photo looks to be blind and off-camber with a sharp drop into the streambed if you run wide.

No nasty surprises for anyone there 😕

Oh, does anyone know if there's a downloadable copy of OGB37? If you request it from the FC you have to give a reason and "pure nosiness" might not cut it!

Looks like they are preparing it for road race duties 😆

Is that part of a climb or a descent?

Its a descent. Or at least it used to be.

If there's only one feature that made the route a red, or which is significantly above the difficulty of the rest of the trail, it makes sense to squash it. Having one harder part in an otherwise easy trail is generally a pretty bad idea, it doesn't even need to be hard to catch people out once they've mentally reset the difficulty level to "easy".

I see your point, and it makes sense, but they could have put a chicken run beside it without killing it - also the red grading was probably including the funpark as well.

Northwind... I had a pdf somewhere.... I'll try ad dig up a copy for you.

what a forkin joke - you could take 3 quad bikes down that and not hit each other.

simple joyless bypass[s]es[/s]

most of the people now using the chicken run will crash because the M25 has opened up in front of them and they dont know which lane to be in...

ps. they were worried about folk landing in the burn? imagine the 3-bike pile up when folks try to race round the corner and end up bailing into there.

Forestry Commission, removing the fun from trail centres since 2007.

On a slightly more serious note it looks to me like the original feature already had a chicken run 😕

slowjo, that'd be cool... If you find it could you email it to andrew@blackjack.f9.co.uk? Cheers!

Wow, just saw the FC plans for the Runway...

[img] [/img]

OGB37? If you request it from the FC you have to give a reason and "pure nosiness" might not cut it!

[url= http://www.forestry.gov.uk/foi ]FOI?[/url] No need for a better reason than nosiness.

Bear in mind a lot of people looking at it from an experienced rider point of view will see it as easy.

Those new to the sport (which the FC does a fantastic job in welcoming and recruiting) will find features like the original quite intimidating.

If you want bigger stuff then go to Innerleithen and Laggan. Easy.

Lets have more beginner freindly stuff out there to get people into the hobby/sport. Thats surely the best way to spend the FC money non? Making it more accessible.

If its so easy for people then make it harder for yourself by taking a different bike, a CX would be a laugh. In fact i may just do that next weekend.

If you want bigger stuff then go to Innerleithen and Laggan. Easy.

why should riders have to travel to one end of the country or other to ride "bigger stuff"? And how does this square with the sustainability and environmental aspects of MTB. Creating Ghettos for noobs and people who like to emulate freeride stars is not a sensible approach.

Having one harder part in an otherwise easy trail is generally a pretty bad idea

I see the sense there Andrew, & I guess the stair was a bit of a departure from the preceeding mile of trail. I think it was well signposted though, & it was a decent climb up some twisty s'track before a section of fire road to get to it. Could, however, imagine a few 'offs' occurring; sure I did a stop & look before tackling it the first time.

blackjack ygm

I think ghettos is an odd word to use. Facilities would be better.

There is just simply not the space/funding/scope to provide every grade at every facility.

It seems people only get huffy with the FC when they create something to include new people into the sport. Picture it from the other side - you want to get into it and you think they are just building red's and blacks all the time. We need all grades.
If they have to be built in different areas then so be it. Admittedly there is an environmental impact but there are few 'outdoor' sports that do not affect the environment.

If anything this could be argued as a positive thing for the area at least. It will bring people in (hopefully!) and attract investment to the area.

The vast majority of leisure cyclists do not ride red and black trails, there is no reason why the FC shouldn't build/change things to suit.

Slowjo, I do indeed- thanks!

Oh, on the subject of the runway, the FC website says it's resurfacing, adding new jumps and stone drop-offs but removing "some of the short double jumps". There's space for a multitude of sins in that but it doesn't sound like it's just a steamrollering.

The wall at Inners received similar treatment this year. Pics, and response from the FC can be viewed at the following: http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=49727&threadid=2046860

thebikechain - your argument makes no sense when other trail centres have retained the hard options with a chicken run eg. Spooky Wood drops, Caddon Bank at Inners etc. Why take out the original feature that required the need for the chicken run?

Doug - you mean the witches trail at Fort Bill I think...

>Lets have more beginner freindly stuff out there to get people into the hobby/sport. Thats surely the best way to spend the FC money non? Making it more accessible.<

Yeah, like doing what Pete Laing actually suggested: turning Eas Dubh into a climb, extending Cannonball and building a link trail down to the Runway. That would go a small way to finishing the job the now dismantled partnership had started...

"The wall at Inners received similar treatment this year."

At the Witch's Trails, you mean? It got incorporated into the blue route. There's still sections of wall which can be ridden as an option, so that's pretty goood. Though not so good from the race perspective I guess, but the FC's response was spot on, Fort William badly lacked easier trails but it has a fair amount of first class harder stuff.

(just playing devil's advocate for the Carron stuff, but here I think they got it absolutely spot on- the blue's very well done IMO, it's in horrible ground but it's quite well hardened and it's got a lot of variety and options for what's a fairly short trail. There's still some red-grade stuff, it's just optional now) It also links well with the cyclepath from fort william, though it's not well signposted- the blue effectively forms a commuting link from the north face car park)

Better pic of what it used to ride like
[img] [/img]

TBC

I think ghettos is an odd word to use. Facilities would be better.

what else would you use to describe corralling MTB'ers based on their ability?

"Beginner sir? left door. Freeride god? Ah, you'll be wanting the right door."

The next thing will be a 3rd party judging what level of centre you should attend on the grounds of H+S....

There is just simply not the space/funding/scope to provide every grade at every facility.

It seems people only get huffy with the FC when they create something to include new people into the sport. Picture it from the other side - you want to get into it and you think they are just building red's and blacks all the time. We need all grades.

I do hope its a good thing for the venue but I do not trust or accept FC's motives one iota and their continued hold on MTB in its trail centre form should be worrying everyone if this is what happens to a minor red feature on a trail.

oh, forgot - the CX thing on Kelpies was done... 🙂
[img] [/img]

That is a crime, add a chicken run sure but to do that boggles he mind!!

Mind you on the plus side they can downgrade the trail to a blue and attract more families because the rest to the trail was no where near a red grading.

thebikechain - I understand your points, we do need easier trails to tempt people into the sport (although I wouldn't say I was a good rider myself). However there is scope for so much more to be made at CV that there was no need to change the current trails - that's what annoyed me the most. Please develop CV, please make more trails, please add extra scope for people to enjoy it, but why the heck destroy whats already there and good to do it?

It like taking good books, pulping them and then using them to print stuff like Harry Potter and Twilight etc on. These books are great, people will read them, enjoy reading them and then move onto even better books. But how can they if you have pulped the better books?

Hmmm - that makes sense to me anyway.

Also where is the nearest proper red to Glasgow now as CV should be a blue? Glentress / Laggan are the closest I think...

David.

If its so easy for people then make it harder for yourself by taking a different bike

All very well for those who can afford to own a range of bikes, but I'd say they are a minority.

And if you can't afford to travel to the ends of the country you probably can't afford a extra bikes either.

Does anyone know who has been involved with the design of the revisions? Was it purely FCS or were people that actually now something about mountain biking involved?

What a shame! Beginners can always get off and walk , we all need something to aspire to.

I believe that this issue was a part of the falling out between the trailbuilders and the FC at Carron valley. Research by the FC showed that blue trails get far more riders than reds and blacks - far far more and the FC wanted to attract more folk and not just cater to the hard core of experienced riders - so this makes sense. Have blue graded trails for all as a base then add reds / blacks in later as funding allows.

Remember the gnarly riders that inhabit STW are a minority

Research by the FC showed that blue trails get far more riders than reds and blacks

Really?

Anytime I've done the blue at Glentress, other than the shared sections with the red/black, I've always been the only person on it. Obviously not the only person, but I've never met anyone on it at all.

strange.

And the word is they're dumbing down CV because of potential legal action when folk fall off rather than any attempt to attract new riders.

Remember the gnarly riders that inhabit STW

I think more blue routes is good. But to demolish a decent techy bit on a red is rubbish.

Boarding bob - so I believe from people who know about these things.

Quick Question... How can it all be blue if the last run back to the carpark is full of berms and doubles ?

Caledonia - because they are (probably) removing all of the doubles.

I just stuck this map together (Google maps is actually really good for this!) to show how important CV could be:
[url= http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2780/4110060894_7ffb192090_m.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2780/4110060894_7ffb192090_m.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Its the only trail center really all that close to the central population belt and is the closest to Glasgow...

Actually the strathpuffer trails are missing. Although they would just add to my point 😉

Yeah, but that's an argument for more trails at Carron (or elsewhere in the central belt) not for keeping Carron as a red (or for that matter for changing it to blue). But there are reasons that trail centres tend to be built a wee bit off the beaten track- one justification is always to bring visitors into the area.

dmiller - don't discount [url= http://www.comriecroftbikes.co.uk/ ]Comrie Croft[/url], just west of Crieff. Some good [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-hairy-coo-xc-race-video ]video here[/url] too.

It's a bit daft but it's not like it was the most exciting feature in the world anyway - I had heard people going on about how scary it was but when I rode it I had to look at the map afterwards to make sure I'd done it. Some of that gravel will wash away before too long as well. I agree with Northwind really.

Hope they don't wreck all the jumps though, I found that section quite fun, though they were a bit short.

Yeah, but that's an argument for more trails at Carron (or elsewhere in the central belt) not for keeping Carron as a red (or for that matter for changing it to blue).

I think I am being rubbish at explaining myself - I want more trails at CV - I want a blue (and maybe a black, although the blue would be more important!) trail built. I just didn't want it at the expense of the red trail 🙁

dmiller - don't discount Comrie Croft, just west of Crieff. Some good video here too.

Cheers Rob!

David.

[i]Quick Question... How can it all be blue if the last run back to the carpark is full of berms and doubles [/i]

they are tame ones, can all be rolled. Rest of the trail is blue IMO, its a nice ride, not knocking it but it is a decent blue ride.

[IMG] [/IMG]

I was dreading what they where going to do to the place.. lest hope they don't sanitise the jumpy section

I can ride my roadbike there now... 👿

I was dreading what they where going to do to the place.. lest hope they don't sanitise the jumpy section

I suspect they will 🙁

I've ridden at Carron Valley many times I'd just like to say a big thanks to the original trail builders. I've never met any of them, but have read everything on their website and NO ONE could dispute that the FC treated them appallingly. There must be lot's of other people who also appreciate all the work that they did as well.

It's ridiculous that they've destroyed Kelpies, and still seen fit to waste money on 2 chicken runs. It's equally ridiculous to think that there are no proper trail centres in the central belt, what's that all about? It has the highest population in Scotland and loads of areas that could be used (like CV).

Yes Scotland has lots of great natural and man made trails, but surely there's enough bikers to justify a good trail centre closer to Glasgow/Edinburgh!

Yes Scotland has lots of great natural and man made trails, but surely there's enough bikers to justify a good trail centre closer to Glasgow/Edinburgh!

Indeed - its not like we are short of hills either with the Campsies and the Ochils...

Although the above link to [url= http://www.comriecroftbikes.co.uk/index.php?id=20 ]Comrie Croft[/url] looks interesting:

Following a brief downhill respite, the singletrack begins and winds its way up through some technical forest sections with some interesting features, check out the chunky bedrock slab with off camber descent, and the water splash. A little more climbing takes you to the descent, which is a thrilling mix of tight twisty singletrack and natural bedrock. On the way down you’ll also encounter a little fun park in a disused quarry and a great variety of surfaces and riding styles.

Not a course to be ridden at top speed, the emphasis is more on the technical and challenging aspects of riding and after an hour you’ll be back in the car park with a big grin on your face and a healthy notion to go and do it all again!

Sounds fun!

Do a wee search on it up above, David - good course, quite tech but not much in the way of facilities. I'm unsure if it's open all year (hope so, want to go again before new year)
There's also a fair bit to be had at Aberfoyle I believe, haven't ridden there myself though (marshalled at a wet round of the Scottish XC, & they seemed to find plenty of variation!)

IIRC another part of the issue is funding streams. Some of the money comes from regional development funds - so the central belt does not qualify. Some of it comes from believe it or not health promotion budgets - but that is aimed at trails for all not for the expert elite.

Jeezo chaps - we have one of the best if not the best MTB set ups in the world in Scotland and its still not good enough for you.

I don't know the whole story of Carron Valley but from what I do know there were two issues - the aims of the FC and the trailbuilders was different ( inclusive for all or red routes) and there were personality clashes.

Building trail centres is expensive and where does the money come from? Not the riders directly on the whole.

Compare the provision in Scotland to England or NI and stop moaning

TandemJeremy - I would agree with most of your points, but why not have more MTB near Glasgow and Edinburgh then? if you wanted to make a change to health then you would build it where people can get to it.

I'm not saying make CV super hard, just please develop it more, not spoil whats there!

I just don't get why the 7 stanes gets so much budget spent so close together. There seems to be a disproportionate amount spent in the Dumfries and Galloway area to me - spend some of that cash up in the Glasgow/Edinburgh/Perth area instead?

I seem to remember someone telling me, and I don't know how accurate this is, that Glentress gets the majority of the footfall (as you would expect), then CV, then the rest of the 7 stanes together, then all the other trail centers. CV or somewhere nearby would be ideal for development!

Also as to England / NI - there are many reasons I am lucky to live in Scotland. MTB centers is one, right to roam is another, the sunny weather a third 😉

"There seems to be a disproportionate amount spent in the Dumfries and Galloway area to me - spend some of that cash up in the Glasgow/Edinburgh/Perth area instead!"

Well said!

dmiller - Member

I just don't get why the 7 stanes gets so much budget spent so close together. There seems to be a disproportionate amount spent in the Dumfries and Galloway area to me - spend some of that cash up in the Glasgow/Edinburgh/Perth area instead?

Wasn't a lot of the initial investment to help recover from the impact of Foot & Mouth? And does the likes of Edinburgh need more tourism income?

Sustrans routes? Callender to Killin for example and there is a trail being sorted along the forth IIRC. Not for gnarlmeisters like you all but all about encouraging cycling for health promotion

I dunno for sure but the central belt does not get the regional development funds which I think was the biggest part of the funding

(There seems to be a disproportionate amount spent in the Dumfries and Galloway area to me - spend some of that cash up in the Glasgow/Edinburgh/Perth area instead?)

The reason is D/G needs investment because of its poor economy and the stanes were introduced directly as a consequence of the impact of foot and mouth on tourism. As a galloway boy I think we deserve investment you compare the ecomomy of Perthshire and that of Wigtonshire and the oppertunities for employment in the central belt with those in rural Galloway no Common Wealth games money comming our way

There's also a fair bit to be had at Aberfoyle I believe

I found a couple of really nice little purpose built singletrack descents in the QE Forest Park behind the David Marshall Lodge - very short though. I wondered if there was other stuff around there.

As someone that lives in Glasgow but has family ties in Dumfries, I do feel that the central belt is in much need of a trail centre, yea we do have some good natural stuff here, but most if it gets too wet and boggy, (or maybe I'm not looking in the correct places) so it's a 1.1/2 - 2 hr drive south for me, I'm lucky because i have a car and family down there, two Bird's one stone...

"There seems to be a disproportionate amount spent in the Dumfries and Galloway area to me - spend some of that cash up in the Glasgow/Edinburgh/Perth area instead!"

I'm not so sure about that. when you consider the close proximity of the border, as a frequent visitor to 4 of the trail centre in D&G most riders and groups I meet come from south of the border, it's few and far between when I meet locals, D&G has a very good catchment area for the central belt and northern england....

but what about those who don't own a car ?? what ? get a train to dumfries-2hrs then a bus or taxi to dalbettie another 1hr, do the trail then somehow get a bus back to dumfries then a 2hr train journey.. so your looking at around 6 hrs travel.... who's up for that ?? na... Ill just stick to getting bogin around mugdock....

surly there must be a good argument for a descent trail centre closer to the two major city's in the country.... and can someone explain to me why there isn't

Kelpies was pants to begin with, and it looks even more pathetic now.

And as for the runway, they couldn't possibly make it any worse, those were the shortest jumps in the world. The jumps at Learnie (iir my trail centres correctly) were epic and i can only hope that they've been copied!

some of the descents on CV were good fun if you really blasted down them although it didn't pay to overcook anything thanks to the logs that had been placed at the edge of the trail (i know they were to stop people cutting corners but rocks are sooo much grippier).

And why re-grade it as a blue? it's a right pig to get to either from Denny or Stirling as the roads are probably more technical than the trail and last time i was there there wasn't much in the way of facilities beyond the car park. NOt the sort of roads you'd want more cars on.

I did have a magical evening/ night ride when snow was falling once, looked as though everything was covered in diamonds and the ice crystals in the air sparkled beautifully.

I'd far rather go to Pitmedden and park at the Glen Tarkie car park as the descent back to the car is so much fun. plus there's all sort of singletrack there, if you don't fancy it you can always ride the fire roads instead.

craig1975 - Member

but what about those who don't own a car ?? what ? get a train to dumfries-2hrs then a bus or taxi to dalbettie another 1hr, do the trail then somehow get a bus back to dumfries then a 2hr train journey.. so your looking at around 6 hrs travel.... who's up for that ?? na... Ill just stick to getting bogin around mugdock....

Buying and riding a mountain bike is not some sort of inalienable right, nor is it yet provided by social services. If you don't have a car and you want to cycle, how about buying a road bike?

[i]I don't know the whole story of Carron Valley but from what I do know there were two issues - the aims of the FC and the trailbuilders was different ( inclusive for all or red routes) and there were personality clashes.[/i]
Maybe it'd be better if you didn't trot out your usual nonsense on it then?

Tandemjeremy, sorry mate but everything you have typed about CV is pure mince...the plans that were agreed back in 06 had plenty of trails for beginners, families and intermediary riders - the only trails not on the map were Black - the FC didn't want anything developed there, it was by sheer hard work and the FC getting themselves into a corner that the trails that were built got built. At the time the FC didn't want any trails built, we got close to agreeing a Green trail - got it flagged out and surveyed and then the FC decided to change it all and no include the green bike trail...so yes, we totally believed in the requirement to build trails for all levels and the plans included that...but it just wasn't to be...

Funding streams - do you work for the FC? There is stacks of cash out there - you just have to know where to look (and also be a suitable group to access it) - FC is limited to what it can apply for - CVDG could have applied for almost £2million - if they had been given the green light all the way - that is not say they would have got it all, but the money is there to be had - if you meet the criteria...

By all means post your thoughts, but please don't make them sound as though you are speaking with any authority on the subject as it is very clear you aren't - not an attempt at a go at you but the number of people who think they know what happened and that are so far from the truth it starts to grate when people come on and claim to know how it all happened...

Buying and riding a mountain bike is not some sort of inalienable right, nor is it yet provided by social services. If you don't have a car and you want to cycle, how about buying a road bike?

a what ??????

Craig - get a cross bike - then you can pretend you 'cross it at the weekend. Its what I have done 😉

At the time the FC didn't want any trails built

I just dont understand why they wouldn't it - good publicity, people outside and enjoying themselves, land put to good to use, its not real work form them if the CVDG did all the admin and digging...

The reason is D/G needs investment because of its poor economy and the stanes were introduced directly as a consequence of the impact of foot and mouth on tourism. As a galloway boy I think we deserve investment you compare the ecomomy of Perthshire and that of Wigtonshire and the oppertunities for employment in the central belt with those in rural Galloway no Common Wealth games money comming our way

Oh. I didnt think of this. Also my comment wasnt meant to sound like D&G was getting to much - just that if you are developing can we have some too! It reads a bit like sour grapes when I read it back now. Sorry!

Protueus / Dick barton - fair enough. I stand corrected

By all means post your thoughts, but please don't make them sound as though you are speaking with any authority on the subject as it is very clear you aren't..............

Hence I put " I don't know the whole story of " "IIRC" " I believe" and so on - I thought that showed that I did not have all the information

apologies