Life's to short I just avoid the bike lanes. They will have a clamp down when they kill a pedestrian.
They will have a clamp down when they kill a pedestrian.
Will they?
Didn't notice any fallout for fixies when that fella killed that lass.
And even if the police did I'm sure it would be met with a 'they're anti-bikes' rally cry from many on here, or the eternal 'haven't you got real crime to investigate'.
If the power limit was, say, doubled (and assuming battery technology kept up) then I reckon close to 100% of users would use it, even if only for certain occasions. Tripled? Quadrupled? Same response I think.
I can't see the power limits getting raised, so it's a moot point.
I've gone from a full power Rail to a low power Kenevo SL. I have to work harder than before but the lighter bike is a joy to ride in comparison to the steamroller that was the Rail. As battery tech improves bikes will get lighter, which makes them better.
I’ve gone from a full power Rail to a low power Kenevo SL. I have to work harder than before but the lighter bike is a joy to ride in comparison to the steamroller that was the Rail. As battery tech improves bikes will get lighter, which makes them better.
Yeah, that's when I might be more interested too.
I was thinking about the electric motorbike thing…
Me too.
As I come from an MX/Enduro background the Stark Varg I linked to earlier holds real interest for me and also the EM trials bike.
https://electric-motion.co.uk/products/2024-em-epure-race
Oddly i have no interest in getting back into it with a petrol powered bike, but the electric bikes seem to have an attraction for me.
If I was to buy one though it'd be for a completely different use case than either my Ebike or any of my pedal bikes.
We have an MX track pretty close to where I live and there are also plenty of legal places I could ride a trials bike.
Everyone that I know that's still racing MX/enduro and riding trials also own ebikes and pedal bikes.
They can differentiate between them all and have no problems with any of them.
Seems it's just a few MTBers that get all hung up on what someone else is doing.
I find it all a little odd TBH.
What about at these E-enduro events? No one as far as I am aware does checks on these bikes for being chipped/de-restricted. How is that fair?
Plus- does de-restricting them make them illegal?
I can see the benefits of ebikes from a fun and utility POV but its very much a first world discussion in the MTB context. I dont see many poverty spec e-mtbs at trail centres...thats a LOT of money on essentially a toy. Let the well off enjoy them...
What about at these E-enduro events? No one as far as I am aware does checks on these bikes for being chipped/de-restricted. How is that fair?
Checks are carried out at Western Bike events and Southern Enduro. Apparently the checks aren't perfect but they are doing what they can.
What percentage of current ebike users would happily use a more powerful engine/battery?
Nope I'm happy riding in eco or tour+ depending on who I'm riding with.
If the power limit was, say, doubled (and assuming battery technology kept up) then I reckon close to 100% of users would use it, even if only for certain occasions. Tripled? Quadrupled? Same response I think.
I’m fine with the power, the arbitrary 25kmh limit is a little annoying on a fast trail, but I haven’t bothered enough to go and find a solution that works with the latest Bosch system to derestrict it, so I guess it can’t annoy me that much.
Having owned, or ridden most of the ‘SL’ bikes out there too, they are ultimately pointless to me. They didn’t offer enough over a normal bike for me, as a fitter person & by the time they are a comparable spec, I had ~2kg difference between it and a full power bike.
I was thinking about the electric motorbike thing
Having ridding trials bikes as a kid, it’s something I would do again, but don’t really have any interest in an ICE powered trials bike, but the Electric Motion/Mecatecno electric trials bikes look really good now & are tempting.
Checks are carried out at Western Bike events and Southern Enduro. Apparently the checks aren’t perfect but they are doing what they can.
Having raced e-bikes at both, I’ve never been, or seen anyone getting checked & there is some outright blatant cheating going on.
It’s almost impossible to police, as most of the decent chips can be deactivated by pressing a button & don’t need an on/off reset now.
There is a race series (pedalhounds I think) that has a unrestricted class for eebs, funny how the same riders compete in that, and normal restricted bike events on alternate weekends 🙄
What I've learned is that the ebike can simply mean you get out when you may not on a MTB. Today's conditions I'd have bailed after a mile as I'd have never been able to pedal, it was ridiculous.
Even the ebike struggled more than once meaning a walking section or 3. Couldn't get traction at all.
https://flic.kr/p/2ppJP44
However, if you've ever ridden with me you'll know that I sweat a lot! Like tonnes.
Today though, not so much. I'm sure you can ride an ebike and not lean on the power, but why would you, I don't know. I find myself more in a Z2 than anything, and it's a low Z2 at that.
But slipping, sliding about today was nothing but fun fun fun. Trying not to crash and hanging on is just great.
I guess to answer my own question, it can be giving up/in, but it depends a lot on what 'it' is. You're deffo not giving up on riding bikes, having fun, hitting trails. But you could be giving up on a certain level of riding fitness
As for the SL, which is what my Rise is, my mate used the app and whacked up the performance, it's still only 60nm, but it flies along on boost.
My mate on the Rail9 uses almost exactly the same amount of battery as I do. I never feel I need 'more'
What I’ve learned is that the ebike can simply mean you get out when you may not on a MTB.
Definitely this. I went to FoD yesterday for 2hrs of riding, I wouldn't have bothered if I'd been on the regular bike. Will be back for the day next weekend for a social rise on the regular bike.
Today’s conditions I’d have bailed after a mile as I’d have never been able to pedal, it was ridiculous.
So if you've got an eBike, you can totally disregard the concept that not contributing to worsening trail conditions, is maybe a wise option?
So if you’ve got an eBike, you can totally disregard the concept that not contributing to worsening trail conditions, is maybe a wise option?
It's NYE, lay off the boring pills
We all degrade trails whatever we ride, stop being so sanctimonious ffs
It’s NYE, lay off the boring pills
We all degrade trails whatever we ride, stop being so sanctimonious ffs
So giving consideration to impact on trails is boring?
But I guess being called sanctimonious by somebody who further up the thread admitted to riding an illegal motorbike, sums up your selfish attitude towards your impact on trails and other users.
I bet you're fun at parties. I hope you're not at one tonight spoiing everyone's night.
Just for the record, a load of us were out Friday, some on ebikes, some on normal bikes. We rode through exactly the same mud at exactly the same speed. Killing the trails with our winter riding....
It certainly wasn’t... ...designed to provoke the sort of reaction this has turned into.
I missed this earlier, but hi, you must be new here, welcome to STW...
EEBs are great, brilliant fun and if I had the spare cash to spend on one I’d have one.
Completely understand the animosity though, I’ve never been block passed by a normal mtb at the start of a fire road climb, causing me to lose all speed.
Never had a normal bike hit me when passing on a singletrack climb.
Never met a normal bike riding up a steep one way descent.
I bet you’re fun at parties. I hope you’re not at one tonight spoiing everyone’s night.
Don't worry, I'm not.
Currently making dessert for tomorrow's family gathering, as it's the first Christmas and New Year since my mum died.
Mine too, whatever relevance that has got to this thread 🤷
But sorry for your loss nonetheless
My point being. If some super fit XC rider who puts out twice the power output of your legs comes flying past, do you judge?
You have a perceived level of what 'damage' is allowed to the trails and you set that at leg power. Ergo leg powered damage is fine, but an ebike that may be putting out only as much output as a very fit rider isn't?
Meh, trail erosion has been talked about as being a huge issue by ebikes, but in many years of riding i've never really seen a huge increase in trail damage in years where ebikes weren't around to now, the same areas get mashed up by bikers with or without motors, ebikes aren't a magic carpet ride, they need traction, so spin out stops you dead, hence why low power gets you traction, full power gets you spinning and off the bike, you learn that fast on ebikes, and you probably learnt it on the normal bike as well!
Personally i just think folk who aren't fans of ebikes just dismiss them as everything wrong with biking, reality is they're just another tool for folk to go riding, it's like the old adage about money, having more doesn't change you, it just makes you more of what you already are, same with an ebike or a normal bike.
So, @argee, which area(s) and/or which trail systems did you study this? And over how many years did this (scientific) study take?
Even where I live, which admittedly isn’t that muddy, plenty of lanes/trails/bridleways, etc are cut up and knackered already so more riders on any type of bike won’t make it any worse. Others, eg. Doethie or Black Mountains peaty routes, are more sensitive and maybe best avoided… but I wouldn’t blame an ebike for riding where I can no longer go… I know I have contributed to local churn up myself.
Mine too, whatever relevance that has got to this thread 🤷
But sorry for your loss nonetheless
My point being. If some super fit XC rider who puts out twice the power output of your legs comes flying past, do you judge?
You have a perceived level of what ‘damage’ is allowed to the trails and you set that at leg power. Ergo leg powered damage is fine, but an ebike that may be putting out only as much output as a very fit rider isn’t?
I thought you might like to know the reason I'm being 'boring' tonight, since you were the one who started with the personal insults.
The point I was making, was if you can't/wouldn't ride a churned up trail on a normal bike, why is it OK to ride it on an eBike?
The point I was making, was if you can’t/wouldn’t ride a churned up trail on a normal bike, why is it OK to ride it on an eBike?
Some sections on our last outing, some people could ride, some couldn't, regardless of what bike they were on.
Just because YOUR legs can't make it through a section, why does it make it wrong that an ebike can? If you can't make it through a section of a churned up trail, why is it ok that the next fitter bloke on a leg powered bike can?
Point missed completely.
If YOU can't ride a section on a normal bike, is it ok if YOU then opt to go and blast through it on a eBike?
The point is, if a section is that questionably rideable, should anybody be riding it at all?
No, you're making your point and you don't like anyone questioning it.
You don't know what sections weeksy rode when you chose to have a go at him
A thousand horses could have trampled through a section of bridleway making it hard to ride on a normal bike, but it might be passable on an ebike.
You don't like ebikes, I get it. Don't set the levels at what you deem acceptable and judge anyone that doesn't stop at your imaginary line.
If you are that precious, don't ride any trails in winter
Happy New year 😘
Just been for a ride… started at 11:44 so as to avoid NYE stuff and at the same time start the year as I hope it will carry on… riding a bike along the beach and through the woods. It was great. <br /><br />
Anyway. Got me thinking… I am lucky (as pointed out to me a few threads go) I have good riding on my doorstep and I have reasonable motivation to ride . I know loads of people, many on here, aren’t so lucky. For some of them, if they have the cash, an ebike may well make the difference between never riding and riding. Between having fun and feeling good, OK, or even less bad. We all have opinions on e-bikes. I feel that it is best if we express them with just a modicum of sensitivity and focus on encouraging people to ride and feel better. Yes we should look after the trails as appropriate, no they may not be for everyone, but they are for some and for some they are a game changer.
hmmmm. Will probably get shot down for expressing riding generated thoughts but there we go. I thought I’d say it anyway.
The point is, if a section is that questionably rideable, should anybody be riding it at all?
Good luck raising that with the equestrians
No, you’re making your point and you don’t like anyone questioning it.
Pot. Kettle. Black. 😘
Pot. Kettle. Black
Strong
Argument
Difference being, you're judging people without substantial basis. I'm not...
Good luck raising that with the equestrians
Yeah. eBikers have nothing on entitled pricks on horses. Was a major issue locally years ago, until a local estate put lots of new fences and gates in due to it.
4 feet wide mess. Walkers were having to weave in and out the trees. One even asked my brother's mate if he wouldn't mind stepping into the mud so he didn't have to get his horse's feet muddy. Needless to say words were had.
4 feet wide mess. Walkers were having to weave in and out the trees
Can't say I really enjoy riding through horse trodden tracks, whatever the bike - or on foot.
But I'm all for open access for all. There are places for walkers, bikers and equestrians to all enjoy the countryside, it's a big space.
There will be pricks amongst all those disciplines, but they'll probably be pricks whatever they are doing
Strong
Argument
Difference being, you’re judging people without substantial basis. I’m not
I merely questioned weeksy's decision, and I'm sure he's big enough to respond himself.
Yet you're the one that started the personal insults, missed the point about if a trail is that muddy, should you be riding it on any bike, and now you've deflected onto bridleways, which I wouldn't personally class as a trail.
And you appear to be judging me without substantial basis...
Can’t say I really enjoy riding through horse trodden tracks, whatever the bike – or on foot.
But I’m all for open access for all. There are places for walkers, bikers and equestrians to all enjoy the countryside, it’s a big space.
There will be pricks amongst all those disciplines, but they’ll probably be pricks whatever they are doing
Although I do agree with this.
Put your big boy/girl pants on if you think I've really been chucking personal insults about FFS
So if we aren't riding bridleways, what, footpaths? Oh goodness me how dare you 🤣
I ride footpaths btw.
I'm not judging you, I'm just responding to your drivel
But I’m all for open access for all. There are places for walkers, bikers and equestrians to all enjoy the countryside, it’s a big space.
There will be pricks amongst all those disciplines, but they’ll probably be pricks whatever they are doing
+1 If we all had more access it would be better for all of us. Loads of horses where I live in the SE of England and the churned up trails can be pretty miserable but we are all just out trying to enjoy ourselves.
Although I do agree with this.
We can agree on something then. I think. You don't seem that open to people using the countryside in the manner they choose to though, so I'm a bit confused
I was thinking about the <em style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; caret-color: #ffffff; color: #ffffff; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">electric motorbike thing…
Good god man, let it go...
What percentage of current ebike users would happily use a more powerful engine/battery? I know a fair few have already modified there’s to make them illegal, but I was thinking in more general terms. If the power limit was, say, doubled (and assuming battery technology kept up) then I reckon close to 100% of users would use it, even if only for certain occasions. Tripled? Quadrupled? Same response I think. All the arguments about having to still work hard would disappear and all the benefits of getting out into the countryside would still exist. There is definitely a group of riders who aren’t that interested in the fitness benefits.
Some would I'm sure... Many wouldn't... The last thing I'm thinking about when I'm riding my eBike is "I wish this had more power"... If you think eBike riders, even the ones that do fit all of your stereotypes, are riding along shouting "powwwwerrrr!" like a 2 wheeled Jeremy Clarkson or even that they aspire to, you are wildly mistaken! I, like many I suspect, use Eco and Trail almost all the time, never touch Boost mode. Eco just feels like me riding a normal bike but with a mild tailwind, Trail is more noticeable but I'm still putting in a lot of effort for my reward. Using both combined I can roughly double my climbing (thus doubling my number of descents) for the amount of effort I put in. It's merely there to help achieve a bit more of the fun stuff (the descents) as and where I can. Given I have a combined 400bhp worth of 2 wheeled power (over 3 motorbikes, 2 of them with more power than your typical family car has), the very last thing in the world I am concerned with when riding an MTB is trying to get it to feel like some feeble 1970's 50cc moped by multiplying its current power output!
As I come from an MX/Enduro background the Stark Varg I linked to earlier holds real interest for me and also the EM trials bike.
Though I don't have the MX/Enduro background that Stu has (I have had a brief play at both, but 99.9% of my motorbiking thus far has been on road), I am similarly interested by the Stark Varg too... More to see how it is pushing the technology and the market forwards to be honest (electric motorbikes on the road don't yet make anywhere near as good an argument as for off road yet) as it is making some real waves in the world of off road motorcycles. The unbelievers will note that this is indeed an Electric Motorbike though, the throttle, the 100kg+ weight and the enormous power output give the game away even if the lack of cranks and pedals don't... Also those that would plan to use it, wouldn't expect to be able to ride it anywhere they might be able to a bicycle... A HUGE part of the bicycle still!
Everyone that I know that’s still racing MX/enduro and riding trials also own ebikes and pedal bikes.<br style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; caret-color: #ffffff; color: #ffffff; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';" />They can differentiate between them all and have no problems with any of them.<br style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; caret-color: #ffffff; color: #ffffff; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';" />Seems it’s just a few MTBers that get all hung up on what someone else is doing.<br style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; caret-color: #ffffff; color: #ffffff; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';" />I find it all a little odd TBH.
Certainly backs up my experience...
I feel that it is best if we express them with just a modicum of sensitivity and focus on encouraging people to ride and feel better. Yes we should look after the trails as appropriate, no they may not be for everyone, but they are for some and for some they are a game changer.
Another newbie...? Coming in here, talking sense, encouraging people to be reasonable...? Who do you think you are?!?! We'll have none of that thank you.
So if we aren’t riding bridleways, what, footpaths? Oh goodness me how dare you
I regularly ride footpaths, but then north of the border that's not an issue. I also ride (and dig) plenty official and unofficial trails.
As per the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, I believe the countryside is for the enjoyment of everyone, one key tenant of which is to act responsibly.
Another newbie…?
I guess so… only joined the forum about 15 years ago.
Coming in here, talking sense, encouraging people to be reasonable…? Who do you think you are?!?! We’ll have none of that thank you.
Well it’s worth try. I guess posting what comes into your head while riding round in the dark is a bit like posting when you’re drunk.
Regarding the erosion thing, I remember years ago spending hours clearing out a pit of slop before a jump (top tabletop on Badger’s in Delamere), then scraping a borrow pit of good soil and filling the hole then tamping it down. Probably 4 hours work in total.
Along came a bunch of maybe 15 middle aged typical STW riders up the trail (a known downhill trail section) who all ploughed through the newly repaired trail without even acknowledging me stood at the side with my spade looking on is disbelief. Huge rut churned in the fresh soil.
I spend at least half of my riding time doing repairs, drainage etc, made a lot easier by using the ebike to get around carrying tools.
Trail erosion has been happening for years, way before e-bikes were invented, I suspect most of the “wheels on the ground, ebike hating proper cyclists” on here have never done an hour of trail work.
Oh dear, hasn't this all got a bit ranty.
I expect there are people out there sitting in front of their computer and stamping hard on the carpet.
Trail erosion has been happening for years, way before e-bikes were invented
Yep, in the summer I ride on some single track that cyclists are not allowed to ride on (all singeltrack in New Forest!). Pretty much nobody rides on it but each year it just gets worse and worse. That erosion appears to be rain and horse related rather than bike.
I wonder if on a horse forum somewhere there are horse riders throwing insults about to other horse riders.
But I’m all for open access for all. There are places for walkers, bikers and equestrians to all enjoy the countryside, it’s a big space.
I beg to differ. Lockdown showed us that when all the proles couldn't do anything else.
But thats for a different discussion.
one key tenant of which is to act responsibly.
Because the public is renowned for that. What could go wrong?
There are places for walkers, bikers and equestrians to all enjoy the countryside, it’s a big space.
Mmm.. yes, in theory, but most of it is fields which aren't much fun for anyone. The good bits tend to be concentrated in relatively small areas, which is where everyone ends up wanting to go.
