Looks like Sagan’s given up as well!
So, @argee, which area(s) and/or which trail systems did you study this? And over how many years did this (scientific) study take?
About the same sampling population as the study on ebikes are 'destroying our trails' discussions on here.
As @Colp has said above, erosion is pretty much how we have trails back in the days, now with trail building erosion is the bedding in, but most trails suffer damage more from riders using trails in poor conditions, it's not exactly rocket science, currently i stick around FoD, Gloucestershire and so on, this time of year the same trails get knackered because of over use in poor conditions, not if it's an ebike or normal bike, erosion in the main is also more down to more usage as well, FoD as an example is getting more and more popular every year, same as mountain biking is becoming more popular.
Increase in erosion I think is less to do with the type of bike, but the increase in users.
Though yes, ebikes maybe are part of the increase. It's attracted many who would otherwise not ride a mountain bike.
But it's a general increase in riders whatever the bike. Things like Trailforks exposing the quieter and cheeky trails to the masses hasn't helped either.
Though I do feel ebikes promote sessioning on trails that would have previously just seen one run on a typical ride.
Frankly I've ended up going a lot more XC to find areas to ride that aren't a mess, though that means bridleways to get to and from places and as said, horse churn is the problem there.
it's strange logic to suggest more erosion is fine because erosion has always been there.
It's a shame weeksy is selling his rise as I would be interested to see how long his lasts in those riding conditions.
It’s a shame weeksy is selling his rise as I would be interested to see how long his lasts in those riding conditions
My Kenevo has been fine for 5 years
Tbh for experienced riders an ebike can cause less erosion than a regular bike.
I spend a much larger proportion of my time sat down on the ebike maintaining constant grip, even on my fat bike with 4"+ wide tyres I much more regularly loose grip and slip about.
Blaming Ebikes for trail erosions again shows the many misconceptions and bias of those on here who are sceptical.
The discussion on here is much like we had when gravel became a thing, and before that when fat bikes became popular, again when 29rs became more popular etc. The sceptical will remain sceptical and will try to shame, point the finger and ridicule the newcomer that is 'ruining' everything.
That's not bad going, any rebuilds or replacements in that time?
Meh, trail erosion has been talked about as being a huge issue by ebikes, but in many years of riding i’ve never really seen a huge increase in trail damage in years
i think it depends on what kind of trails we’re talking about. <br /><br />In my local woods, the steeper, loamy trails cut in to the hill are riding very differently this winter and last. Could be the additional rain, could be additional use, but logic says a 10kg heavier ebike, often dragging a back brake to counter the momentum, and carrying more weight and momentum through the corners on tyres generally a bit fatter have to cause more damage. <br /><br />That doesn’t mean I think somebody on an ebike has any less right to be there or any more responsibility to the trail than a regular bike.
To a walker who walked the woods 30 years ago we’re both pricks cutting up the hillside.
who all ploughed through the newly repaired trail without even acknowledging me stood at the side with my spade looking on is disbelief
Sadly that's not an uncommon thing. Thankfully most riders will say thanks, with the occasional one even stopping to help out. I even get free beers at certain events due to one of my trail creations.
However if you want to experience the full entitlement, try closing a popular trail for an official volunteer dig, and having the audacity to ask riders to walk past the work site. I've witnessed the full range from barging past avoiding all eye contact, to the poor person on banksman duties being ranted at and threatened.
Not wanting to join in tribal warfare but a trend in the past few years is for much narrower tyres - one extreme to the other. Narrower tyres dig deeper and I really have noticed this effect when out and about.
When it comes to wet ground, there is a lot of scope for the judicial application of Rule 1. That goes for when you are on foot too.
Those of you who ride in Bringewood, Wyre etc - take a look out for all those parallel gullies. That is hundreds if not more years of erosion, when one road got too deep they would take another. There is also a particularly good example above Lucknow on Lothian Edge in the Lammermuirs. Now there is a place where I could do with a little assistance.
I have had few bad experiences when out taking photographs for Geograph. One of them was from a group of mountain bikers on downhill trails. Always a bit nervy when out and about in Englandshire, but was taken aback by the degree of friendly fire experienced here.
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/6401557
That’s not bad going, any rebuilds or replacements in that time
No, lost a bit of battery health, but that happens to all batteries. To be honest, some years it hasn't done mega miles, but it's definitely been used and abused
TAFKAS, that's good to hear👍 The warranties have looked a little tight for me so it's good to hear real experiences.
Monkeyboy. Good to hear the eebers cause less erosion👍 I'm not totally convinced by that one tbh.
What's the general feeling about the extra environmental concerns on battery production and recycling?
It doesn't look great currently but I guess things will have to improve with more use of batteries, is there a silver lining?
“What’s the general feeling about the extra environmental concerns on battery production and recycling?”
Production is definitely a big issue. There seems to be an increasing industry in battery recycling - there’s a small business local to me making power banks for phones etc using old ebike battery cells. I suspect we’ll see more of this “easy” recycling, using old batteries from vehicles (where energy storage vs mass is critical) to make home power storage banks for solar or off-peak power.
it’s strange logic to suggest more erosion is fine because erosion has always been there.
Don't think anyone is saying that, in my post i'm saying that MTB trails are basically there because they are erosion, same as footpaths and so on through time. I find erosion is more down to overuse in poor conditions and poor riding, like every trail you go to has braking bumps in berms and so on, those are down to rider + bike weight + speed, ebikes are not really adding huge amounts to that type of issue and many more you see all over the trails.
Spend more time fixing trails, avoiding them in bad conditions and the usual stuff will do more than blame ebikes, when i see trails getting torn apart it's usually a group ride all hitting a trail and doing stuff like shralping and slingshotting round berms and corners or running down a trail that's a mud bath over and over again because it's got a line carved in it now.
My Kenevo has been fine for 5 years
How many miles? My borrowed 2017 Levo needed a motor overhaul after 1600 mostly dry ones ones. No jet-washing and hardly any wet rides. That would be around five years too. I'm not sure 'years' is a good measure of anything apart from time.
Regarding trail erosion, it’s an extremely location specific problem or not. On our local trails, occasionally one gets taken out of use for good by something like a large tree fall, and within less than a year you’d struggle to find where it was. And these are trails that often get very muddy in the winter.
It is giving up. I feel very strongly about it. E-bikes are for lazy people. Spout off all you want about more climbs, more miles or whatever, but at the end of the day you can't be arsed putting the effort in and you want to make it easier for yourself. It's fine. Just be honest about it.
I will ride my analogue, old fashioned acoustic bikes until I'm physically incapable, and then I will buy an e-bike, and hate myself until I die.
I am aware that plenty of people find e-bikes the only way they can ride and it's great that there's a way for people like my 70 year old dad with his gammy knee to keep riding.
FTFY:
“It is giving up. I feel very strongly about it. Geared bikes are for lazy people. Spout off all you want about more climbs, more miles or whatever, but at the end of the day you can’t be arsed putting the effort in and you want to make it easier for yourself. It’s fine. Just be honest about it.
I will ride my analogue, old fashioned singlespeed bikes until I’m physically incapable, and then I will buy a geared bike, and hate myself until I die.”
I will ride my analogue, old fashioned acoustic bikes until I’m physically incapable, and then I will buy an e-bike, and hate myself until I die.
I am aware that plenty of people find e-bikes the only way they can ride and it’s great that there’s a way for people like my 70 year old dad with his gammy knee to keep riding.
So at 76 and still able to ride and get up climbs I'm a lazy person? The fact that making these climbs is becoming more and more hard (but yes, I'm still making them at the moment) and at the top I have to judge whether if I make another fun descent I may be too worn out to climb up again. So yes, I must be a lazy person.
Btw, I haven't bought one yet but I'm very likely to.
georgesgranddad?
georgesvictoriandad
It is giving up. I feel very strongly about it. E-bikes are for lazy people. Spout off all you want about more climbs, more miles or whatever, but at the end of the day you can’t be arsed putting the effort in and you want to make it easier for yourself. It’s fine. Just be honest about it.
Ok, I'm going to bite, even though it's been done to death
How about they are also for time short people, or people who ride with a much fitter group, or just people who haven't got their heads up their arses and realise how much fun they are?
Not having the chance to ride all the time with a group who are younger, get out more often and are ergo fitter and faster can be a miserable experience. Deciding not to go out with them because it's not enjoyable would be 'giving up'.
That's pretty much the driving reason why I bought one 5 years ago. But it gets used for group rides, solo fun rides and times when it just suits. The rest of the time, I'll ride one of my other bikes
I will ride my analogue, old fashioned acoustic bikes until I’m physically incapable, and then I will buy an e-bike, and hate myself until I die.
So, I'm reading this right? When you can't ride a normal bike, you'll buy an ebike and hate yourself for buying a tool that lets you carry on enjoying yourself? You do actually enjoy yourself, don't you? I think that statement say quite a lot about you to be fair
What are people ‘giving up’ though?
Chap I went school with has recently got more in to e-bikes, one assumes because he isn’t as fit/fast as he was. Though, at his peak he was world and Olympic champion.
Are the anti ebikers this macho IRL?
Don't let yourself be dragged in by this mate. No need
Walk away (maybe on an airport travelator to make it easier 🤣) and enjoy riding your bike buddy.
This debate is stupid and should be closed!
Don't close it for heavens sake, it's hilarious!
It also reminds me why I don't like people, they take themselves far too seriously...
No, Ed Clancy.
What are people ‘giving up’ though?
Cycling.
My interpretation of Cycling.
FTFY.
OK, why’s that an issue? Do you have the same issue with uplifts/chainless riding?
OK, why’s that an issue?
It's not necessarily an issue. They're just two different things.
Cycling<br /><br />
I have never been a cyclist. I’m a mountain biker.
Lazy is a relative term tho isn’t it. Today I went for a ride on a non-e-rigid29er, then I went for a walk around the cliffs with kids and grandkids and then I had to go and check some cattle that are 8 miles away via several short sharp hills. It was pissin down and windy. I guess I was too lazy to cycle there but not lazy enough to drive there so I used my Tern ebike. How lazy am I? <br /><br />
Importantly (to me), I enjoyed the wet and wild ride on the ebike. I wouldn’t have enjoyed the same ride in the same conditions as much on my touring bike. I definitely wouldn’t have enjoyed driving there. So my laziness paid off. <br /><br />I think, therefore, that being lazy can sometimes be great.
It’s not necessarily an issue.
16 pages of this thread says otherwise.
What about giving in? Giving in to what?
To me, the issue seems to be that the self appointed gatekeepers of the sport pastime have got their knickers in a twist because someone has brought a ladder to deal with any gates that may be otherwise locked, so they’ve resorted to passive aggressive comments. *slow hand clap*
16 pages of this thread says otherwise.
Aye, it's been well covered. Why don't you read some of it.
Aside from ‘it’s not what I like doing so it’s wrong/pathetic/cheating’, there’s very little of any substance.
Ride what and where you like, makes no difference to me, but e-bikers that log Strava as normal bike rides are dicks.
Vital must of been reading this thread…
”E-bike hate: both on the interwebs and on the trail. At this point, if you're still upset that there are bikes with motors and batteries, then you just don't get it. The good news is you can still ride your sweet mountain bike, and your life will be no different than it was 15 years ago. Save your hate; ride your bike”
https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/whats-whats-out-mountain-biking-2024
Ps before I get bashed 😉 I don’t own an ebike.
Blaming Ebikes for trail erosions again shows the many misconceptions and bias of those on here who are sceptical.
Are you trying to claim that riding in the mud doesnt cause erosion above that in dry conditions?
Therefore that for those who wouldnt have ridden a particular trail on a normal bike but have "fun" on their ebike riding it wont be causing additional issues regardless of who else uses those trails?
Or are you just showing the bias and ultra defensiveness of the ebiker and so extrapolating wildly?
To me, the issue seems to be that the self appointed gatekeepers of the sport pastime have got their knickers in a twist because someone has brought a ladder to deal with any gates that may be otherwise locked, so they’ve resorted to passive aggressive comments
**** me. If you are going to whine about "passive aggressive" perhaps you shouldnt go in for it so much yourself.
The abuse being hurled by the ebikers on this thread is curious
I'm not really anti e-bike, it's just they don't particularly interest me.
However they do seem to be a rule no.1 amplifier. Pricks on bikes have always existed to some extent, but eMTBs do appear to be the replacement for the previous all the gear types, but now instead of wheezing their way to the top of the hill once and bumbling down once, they can do it multiple times while hardly breaking a sweat on the climb. I'm sure some sweat more at the prospect of technical features on the descent.
Verging off topic slightly, I'm always intrigued by riders who go somewhere like the Golfie, then walk anything technical. My goal as a biker has always been to improve, and work towards riding features I can't ride, but I've seen the same riders months apart, spend more time walking descents than riding. I just wouldn't bother going near a trail I knew I couldn't ride, yet some people will quite happily walk the same trail sections multiple times on the same day.
It's definitely not eBike specific, but it's just a mindset I really can't comprehend, other than they only do it so that they can claim that they 'rode' a certain trail.
Apparently back in the early twentieth century they had an aid to help people adopt the motorcar.
Some saw it as a way ahead, others just didnt get it, so for those others they developed something that meant they could use this new mode but retain their mental stability.
They aren't for me. I enjoy having to work for the enjoyment of cycling.
I do like seeing older people who wouldn't otherwise get the enjoyment out of cycling using them however.
People who buy e-bikes are giving up on things other people want to do.
