I would be all for 15mph electric vehicles being legal to use in same way as a bicycle. Makes no difference to me if someone is casually turning the pedals to go 15mph or not turning the pedals at all to go 15mph. They still make a good pace bike for me to follow up the hills...
E-scooters are different though as it is totally illegal to ride them due to the law not allowing for them.
Whatever is said about ebikes the law does allow for at least various forms of them. E scooters are not allowed in any way which is dumb.
IMO anyone with a full drivers licence should be allowed to ride e-scooters without a full motorbike licence and L-Plates. Probably just a CBT to make sure you can actually keep it upright.
I could easily fit an e-scooter into my life for short journeys. But I really CBA to do a full motorbike test or ride around with L plates on looking like a pizza delivery rider! 🙂
EDIT - I should add I'm talking about scooters as in mopeds (mini motorbike) - not scooters as in childs play toy! And be fully insured on said scooter (moped).
The problem is insurance. I know a cyclist that was hit by a legal hire e-scooter (not when on his bike), but he's badly damaged his shoulder, needs surgery, and is off work - self employed. Hire company is not being helpful with tracing the 'rider'.
I have third party for riding my normal bike, and, unfortunately, have been claimed against, I was knocked off my bike, but in the resultant fall, skidded across the road and took another rider down - he sued me !
Part of me* thinks that the current rules aren't fit for purpose. 15.5mph is too slow on the road (a fairly average roadie would leave you for dust) and more crucially its annoyingly slower than the cars in a residentual/suburban setting - which speed limit or not, seems to de-facto be around about 20ish when its busy;
yet they are too fast for mtbing, it gives you world cup pro levels of climbing ability, perhaps unsuited to shared off road spaces or even dedicated bike trails when shared with actual mtbs.
Ideally, I'd suggest a geofenced variable limiter - 20 on roads where you act as a moped/motorbike; but only 10 off road (clearly you can still pedal above this), where you may act as a bicycle.
Of course while the technology exists, lets not kid ourselves that it would only potentially be a small minority of fancy bikes, the majority would remain dodgy throttled chinese conversions doing deliveroo runs.
*...and part of me wants a fancy fast e-bike to go play in the woods on my own.
15.5mph is too slow on the road
You're not limited to 15.5 mph, if you have the legs and the lungs, you can ride much faster than that. The thing with e-bikes is that you can get up hills much faster. I think the complaint is that people want an electric motorbike and are disappointed when they find out that they have to pedal the thing.
Just ban the lot of them. It’s clear lots of the existing users want a motorcycle, so they should go and buy one.
I am fed up with all the “we need a higher speed limit”. If you can ride faster ditch the ebike and do it.
A 20mph limit wouldn't be unreasonable. If the urban speed limit is generally 20mph then it makes sense for an ebike to match that.
Not on a shared path, cycle path or off road. There are enough dicks about without giving them more speed.
A lot of ebikes in urban settings are often riden inappropriately. I also dont want to be pedaling up a climb off road with ebikes coming up the trail at 20 mph.
You’re not limited to 15.5 mph, if you have the legs and the lungs, you can ride much faster than that. The thing with e-bikes is that you can get up hills much faster. I think the complaint is that people want an electric motorbike and are disappointed when they find out that they have to pedal the thing.
Yep, but you're also on a 25kg bike not set up to be quick, and as soon as you hit 15.5mph, you are 100% moving that bike, it's just a bad speed to set the limit, as commuting tends to be done above 15mph on flat and downs.
Again, the reasoning that nobody goes above 15.5mph is not realistic, whenever i commute via the Bristol cycleways (ring road, B2B, etc) you have a lot of people treating their commute, or fitness rides like they're on a time trial and going well above 15.5mph, it can't just be local to Bristol though?!
Again, the reasoning that nobody goes above 15.5mph is not realistic, whenever i commute via the Bristol cycleways (ring road, B2B, etc) you have a lot of people treating their commute, or fitness rides like they’re on a time trial and going well above 15.5mph, it can’t just be local to Bristol though?!
Generally the people who can hold decent speeds have done the work, and have the experience to do so safely, though.
Part of me* thinks that the current rules aren’t fit for purpose. 15.5mph is too slow on the road (a fairly average roadie would leave you for dust)
Is that really a bad thing, though? Should anyone be able to get on an ebike for the first time and outpace people with years of training and experience? This isn't coming from a point of envy, or unfairness, but safety and responsibility.
Should anyone be able to get on an ebike for the first time and outpace people with years of training and experience? This isn’t coming from a point of envy, or unfairness, but safety and responsibility.
My opinion (and that is all it is) is that 20 would better integrate into existing traffic and infrastructure as a viable urban and suburban active travel method.
Probably wishful thinking as some dickhead who thinks you only use the rear brake will go barelling down the pavement at 20 scattering a crowd of nuns.
If you want to stop what you believe is unsafe speed on shared paths, then shouldn’t we be asking the government to apply speed limits to shared paths as well?
Whilst not legally enforced the guidance is over 15 (or 18mph different sources say different things) then the rider should be on the road instead.
Of course some people wont obey it but the number of people who can comfortably hold 20mph without favourable terrain/wind isnt going to be that high and hopefully most of them will have the brains to be careful near people.
There is a tarmacked sustrans track on an old rail line near me which doesnt have many pedestrian entry points for large parts of it. My strava segments on it are all over the place since at quiet times can go full out but on sunday mornings going to the farmers market generally its 10mph or so max as there are lots of people out then and it would be unsafe to go faster.
Whilst not legally enforced the guidance is over 15 (or 18mph different sources say different things) then the rider should be on the road instead.
Of course, try telling that to motorists!
15.5mph is too slow on the road
Is that really a bad thing, though?
Yes, because Davey Transit Van is up my bum trying to get those 4.5mph - 20mph is the speed limit all around here.
"For those saying 20mph is too fast, you can do that any way, just unassisted, you go down any shared cycle path around here and you’ll see normal bikes going 20mph or faster, you go down the bath/bristol route and you’ll see roadies racing down there! "
Yes, but it's a lot harder to pedal a bike to 20+ mph - I don't know how fast an ebike can accelerate to that speed but I know my Levo gets to 15.5mph very quickly and even that is too fast on a lot of bike lanes but 20+ would be worse.
"Yep, but you’re also on a 25kg bike not set up to be quick, and as soon as you hit 15.5mph, you are 100% moving that bike, it’s just a bad speed to set the limit, as commuting tends to be done above 15mph on flat and downs."
I commute on a 25kg e-full-sus running Hillbilly/Butcher tyres (I do pump them up to 30psi unless I'm commuting the gnarly way). The motor helps me get up the hills faster. On the flat I can happily cruise above the limiter despite the air/tyre drag. Downhill I go fast.
The weight is only an impediment uphill but that's when the motor helps out.
Our model for motor vehicle insurance is broken anyway. We should instead collect a levy for and include universal third party insurance in fuel and electricity sales. Every driver would then be automatically ensured for third party liability whatever the vehicle. Let people who want it then take out fire, theft, and comprehensive insurance policies.
Sure, it risks a tragedy of the commons problem, but as I understand it right now something like ten or fifteen percent of drivers are driving uninsured anyway.
Yes, because Davey Transit Van is up my bum trying to get those 4.5mph – 20mph is the speed limit all around here.
You missed quoting all the context.
But anyway, that's really irrelevant. It doesn't matter what speed you're doing. They will *still* be sitting on your back wheel.
Our model for motor vehicle insurance is broken anyway. We should instead collect a levy for and include universal third party insurance in fuel and electricity sales.
So someone who doesnt drive gets to subsidise drivers via their electricity bill which already is rather high currently?
The victims of the uninsured drivers are already covered under the Motor Insurance Bureau so ultimately via everyone elses insurance policies.
Set the limit at that.
Which is fine for the roads but not so great if they are using one of the shared paths.
My opinion (and that is all it is) is that 20 would better integrate into existing traffic and infrastructure as a viable urban and suburban active travel method.
At 20 mph you have about 66% more energy than at 15.5 mph, a crash will be much worse. You also have less time to react to danger so your braking time will be reduced. The problem isn't integrating into traffic, it's idiots riding ebikes on shared paths and hitting pedestrians. There will be more crashes and the crashes will be much worse. I think ebikes are a good thing but they're not meant to be mopeds.
For those saying 20mph is too fast, you can do that any way, just unassisted, you go down any shared cycle path around here and you’ll see normal bikes going 20mph or faster, you go down the bath/bristol route and you’ll see roadies racing down there!
Sure but first you've got to invest in a pedal bike that will do those speeds then you've got to train for a bit to sustain those speeds, and all that normally comes with the skill and experience to avoid getting tangled up with other users. As @tjagain says, any idiot can ride an e-bike at that speed, and those things are considerable more hefty then skinny roadies are!
t 20 mph you have about 66% more energy than at 15.5 mph, a crash will be much worse. You also have less time to react to danger so your braking time will be reduced. The problem isn’t integrating into traffic, it’s idiots riding ebikes on shared paths and hitting pedestrians. There will be more crashes and the crashes will be much worse. I think ebikes are a good thing but they’re not meant to be mopeds.
which was my original suggestion. Either 2 classifications or a geofenced/automatic way of switching between the two.
20mph on the road, 10 on shared paths, bridleways etc.
(and I acknowledged the practical issues with implementing this, but that's never stopped a good old STW urban cycling thread before)
Part of my regular route to work is down an urban dual carriageway, one of those gently winding bits through suburbia with a really wide central reservation with massive trees along it, with loads of side roads and breaks in the central reservation, two big secondary schools and a major bus route down it - and some years back it was changed from a 30mph limit to a 20mph limit. Normally I stay off the road but last week when it was absolutely chucking it down, that monsoon/movie rain that you hardly ever get in England, I rode in along that road.
According to Strava I was at between 26 and 30mph the whole way down that road but I had a car hard on my tail all the way, until it squeezed past (I was in the middle of the lane trying to stay safe) with less than a foot clearance, whilst I was doing 30, not long after I'd set off the 20mph limit speed-detecting sign. Unfortunately for the foolish driver I caught up with him at the end of the road, and wasted far more time that he'd saved whilst educating him on his poor behaviour...
The only way to integrate a bike into existing traffic is to make it look like a car, as well as go as fast as a car. A bike travelling at less than 30 and looking like a bike will always be viewed by many drivers as something that needs to get out of the way because it's holding them up, regardless of speed limits and traffic.
And having ridden a 50cc moped with a 30mph limiter on the same route, I can confirm they do the exact same with them.
a geofenced/automatic way of switching between the two.
Just not practical. Keep it simple, limit ebikes to a speed that is sensible for novice riders on shared paths. If they want to commute in traffic at motorbike speeds, tell them to buy motorbikes.
If they want to commute in traffic at motorbike speeds, tell them to buy motorbikes.
Yup. A moped licence is easy to get, not overly expensive and allows up to 30ish.
Doesnt seem much point in putting another category in the middle.
Ok, forget the switching, how about a separate category.
20mph limiter, but you can only ride it on roads. Like a moped, but one where you can use a bike style helmet, or no helmet, no requirement for insurance or licence; and maybe you can carry it up to your city apartment rather than leaving it outside to be nicked.
How would we feel about them?
which was my original suggestion. Either 2 classifications or a geofenced/automatic way of switching between the two.
20mph on the road, 10 on shared paths, bridleways etc.
I'd been thinking that having speed limits and/or tests/mandatory training for higher speed restriction e-bikes might be a way to resolve some issues, but all those paths lead to bikes being licensed, which would be bad for all concerned.
Moped licence, some of you will have one already if you passed your car test before 2001. If you passed your car test after 2001 you only need to complete CBT. https://www.gov.uk/motorcycle-cbt/car-driving-licence
Everyone should have an apprenticeship. on a two wheeler before they get behind the wheel
When I rule the world, ebikes and escooters will be legal, but only as part of a complete systemic change.
From the age of mid teen, say 14 ish, you are legal permitted to use a e scooter or throttle e bike or other "vulnerable road user transport category" that is limited to 20mph on the road. The speed limits for all vehicles in a city is a blanket 20mph - so all forms of transport go at broadly the same speed. All equally viable forms of transport, all integrate together ok and all are permitted on the roads whilst obviously being banned from pavements / pedestrian areas. The permission to use this lowest form of transport is immutable.
However, if you want to get a driving licence for car / motorbike / hgv / bus etc, then you must show a log of x,000hours as a "vulnerable" road user.
Once you have clocked a hefty usage as a "vulnerable" user, you are then able to apply for your drivers licence, sit your test etc and go about your merry way.
However, any driving offence you get convicted for will see you banned from driving until you have clocked another lump of hours up as a "vulnerable" road user. The length of ban is commensurate as to the seriousness of the offence.
That way, everyone, knows very well what it's like to be a vulnerable road user and should take more care. Also everyone will have open to them to the most suitable form of transport as to their needs.
I’d been thinking that having speed limits and/or tests/mandatory training for higher speed restriction e-bikes might be a way to resolve some issues,
Yes, the police really want to spend their time checking cyclists to see if they have the correct stamps on their licence to ride the category of ebike they are on. Much, much simpler to just limit the speed that legal ebikes can do. Sure, they will get hacked but that will just be a niche thing and anyone who does it will put themselves in legal jeopardy. Laws that are simple to enforce are much more effective than complex ones that have multiple categories for different classes of users.
Sure but first you’ve got to invest in a pedal bike that will do those speeds then you’ve got to train for a bit to sustain those speeds, and all that normally comes with the skill and experience to avoid getting tangled up with other users. As @tjagain says, any idiot can ride an e-bike at that speed, and those things are considerable more hefty then skinny roadies are!
During most journeys, you can do 20mph on a normal bike as well quite easily, racing snakes for longer and higher speeds, so above 20mph, i'm not 100% you can correlate their ability for speed against their skills for not having accidents, i've seen a couple of incidents on the B2B, and more elsewhere, and it's mostly down to head down mentality rather than a hefty bike, and again, just because the bike can do 20mph assisted, doesn't mean folk will do that speed all the time, most of the time i see ebikers bimbling, not flat out in turbo mode trying to smash strava sections.
You appear to have missed the “but”.
Fair point, I think we agree.
The problem isn’t integrating into traffic, it’s idiots riding ebikes on shared paths and hitting pedestrians.
Where do people spend most of their timing riding? On normal roads or shared paths? This - possibly entirely hypothetical - problem of cyclists hitting people at 20mph because they can't handle the extra 4.5 mph of POWAH is a weird distraction.
I’d been thinking that having speed limits and/or tests/mandatory training for higher speed restriction e-bikes might be a way to resolve some issues, but all those paths lead to bikes being licensed, which would be bad for all concerned.
Bad for all concerned How exactly?
I'm concerned and I don't think it would be bad for me...
If you want to use a more powerful vehicle on the roads then the increased risk level for both the user and the wider public kind of means operator training, licencing and vehicle inspection/registration all make good sense, and the mechanisms for implementing all of that already exist...
It seems more like you want a motorbike of whatever power rating/fuel type but don't fancy the extra faff of taking a test/registering the bike...
Or more succinctly "Gimmie some more Rights without the corresponding responsibilities!"...
Nah...
I’ll try it another way, as I don’t really disagree with those criticising my suggestion.
Limit cars to the same as e-bikes. It makes the e-bike the far faster, more efficient, and safer (in terms of those the vehicle hits anyway) choice in town.
I average about 14mph on a muscle bike across York including stopping at lights etc. My moving average is more like 18mph. At those speeds riding on the road makes more sense. Unify speed limits / speed limiters and it would be a no brainer. Cycle paths wouldn’t really be needed.
Not on a shared path, cycle path or off road. There are enough dicks about without giving them more speed.
I hear you, but until cars, which are by faaaaar the greater threat overall, are limited in this way or controlled by average cameras etc I find it hard to be in support of the current low limitations on bikes or scooters. We trust people to be sensible and self-regulate in a tonne and a half of car with 100+bhp, but not an a 20kg bike? Yeah ok.. but of course driver behaviour is the argument for the low limitations you're making, I get that.
15mph is fast enough to injure someone as it is, idiots will be idiots and some of the worst offenders I see are the keen cyclist on a road bike or mtb. There's already shared path issues but it's rare from what I see (I walk on a town bypass sustrans path about 3-5 miles a week).
In this case it's simply making the product a bit less useful or appealing to many potential users in a time when we need more people using e-bikes for transport.
It's also highlighting the poor infrastructure and poor shared path culture we have in the UK. I'd rather we backed change there rather than limiting e-bikes the way we do. But to be clear I don't want surrons everywhere either - a 20mph epac limit seems useful, that's all.
Plus as has been pointed out we don't have much of a cycle path network here as it is and most e-bikes spend most of their time on the road. As we all know, moving at a reasonable pace in urban traffic leads to fewer overtakes and is potentially (no source / data) safer, or at least less stressful. 20mph urban speed limit makes a 20mph e-bike seem reasonable, but if it doesn't change what we have is ok - this isn't a make or break thing imo.
We trust people to be sensible and self-regulate in a tonne and a half of car with 100+bhp, but not an a 20kg bike?
We dont. We require them to get a licence demonstrating basic skill and to drive with insurance and have the vehicle somewhat roadworthy (obv enforcement of these vary as does the effectiveness).
Plus as has been pointed out we don’t have much of a cycle path network here as it is and most e-bikes spend most of their time on the road.
Then why not keep the fast ones there? Dont mess around with 20 but get some type approved up to 30 either directly under moped laws or a variant of them with a half day/day cbt to get qualified.
It’s also highlighting the poor infrastructure and poor shared path culture we have in the UK. I’d rather we backed change there rather than limiting e-bikes the way we do. But to be clear I don’t want surrons everywhere either – a 20mph epac limit seems useful, that’s all.
Yep that poor infrastructure and shared use paths are precisely the reason the retain the current arrangement (IMO), it's also worth noting that 15mph is not a 'Limit' as it keeps being called, it's a maximum level of assistance.
Where eeeb riders come into contact with pedestrians I can't see much benefit to adding more potential speed. Eeeb riders can still do 20 once they get on a road but they need to rustle up the watts to get above 15mph for themselves...
As for those talking about slowing down cars, absolutely agree, I am very keen on Urban 20 limits (I live in such an area) controlling vehicle speeds in the areas where the greatest potential for speed differentials and collisions exist makes total sense, but cars don't generally mix with pedestrians at such close quarters, so frequently. Implementing some sort of variable assistance controls for road Vs cycle lane/shared use paths isn't really practical, when people start talking about geo-fencing e-Bikes you know they're reaching.
Not that any of this matters, I see the existing rules flouted on a daily basis, and enforcement is (as ever) nonexistent. Being realistic if you want to chip your Levo or add a twist 'n' go throttle I very much doubt you'll see any real challenges (just internet finger Waggers like me), it's only going to be a (legal) problem if/when you break rule 1 and **** a pedestrian to death... Your choice.
We dont. We require them to get a licence demonstrating basic skill and to drive with insurance and have the vehicle somewhat roadworthy (obv enforcement of these vary as does the effectiveness).
The point is we have laws and some methods of enforcement but it's patchy / weak so speed limits (road safety-wise) are often about drivers behaving not mechanical speed limitations. They often don't behave which I realise makes a case for limiting ebikes.. Part of this is about risk and potential damage but that's into the weeds.
As far as the speed differential on a shared path goes, 15mph to 20mph won't matter. Some people are idiots on any bike. Either limit level needs rider regulation and sense to manage on a shared path, both imo are within reasonable limitation, 20mph is just more practical in some places.
Then why not keep the fast ones there? Dont mess around with 20 but get some type approved up to 30 either directly under moped laws or a variant of them with a half day/day cbt to get qualified.
You can already have a type approved 28mph limit speed pedelec and e-mopeds that can't use bike paths but they need things that reduce ease of access/use. In all this I just want to see more people seeing epacs as a transport option, something a family can share use of etc.
fwiw here to clarify what + where, I don't care about E-MTBs etc and I'd support anything that's clearly designed as an off-road bike staying at current 15mph limit. imo a revision of the limit from 15mph to 20mph might make hybrid type transport epacs more useful or a better transport experience in places w/o any need to change what an epac is otherwise. Some disagree. In reality it won't change any time soon if at all.
Perhaps the speed increase comes with a power limit drop to regulate how long that speed can be held. Or they're configured so that the extra 5mph needs a reasonable percentage more input from the rider so that the average speed isn't increased in many cases. Like a 5mph range of softer more gradual cut-off so the added speed is something any rider can access. Many riders just don't have the power to take an epac past the cut off up to 20mph on the road (I'm talking transport epacs here, mainly ridden by a non-enthusiast) but they will find the added speed makes some roads feel safer or that they 'take a place' more easily.
As far as the speed differential on a shared path goes, 15mph to 20mph won’t matter.
Thats not what is actually the case. Look at the Netherlands experience. even 15 mph creates too big a speed differntial
You guys may think you are riding gods and you cause no issues. The reality is that it needs to be done for the lowest common denominator
What you are arguing for is to create a new class for the UK. We could call it speed pedelecs. Insurance and PPE required.
From what I have seen people on any kind of bike contain a representive number of dicks. It's likely they will also drive like a dick.
Giving them more powered speed is not sensible. A lot of the newer cycle lanes in urban areas are narrow enough that passing another bike requires cooperation.
They have narrow crowded pavements and sometimes cars parked in bays next to them. Speed on a bike of any sort needs to be sensible. In this environment 20 mph on a ebike would be stupid.
There are enough problems with delivery bikes scooters and wheels without adding extra problems.
On the road in these areas cars rarely achieve 20 mph.
