and as I said above - the temptation to ride like a dick on an ebike is increased hugely compared to a normal bike. Its just too easy to ride like a dick. I have to consciously restrain myself from doing so
The reality is that it needs to be done for the lowest common denominator
So enforced speed limits on all shared paths?
I would like to see sense prevailing.
Most people can ride safely.
The things people need to understand that a busy commute is not the place to train or improve your Strava time.
It's about all street users cooperating to travel safely and not make other street users feel threatened.
Thats not what is actually the case. Look at the Netherlands experience. even 15 mph creates too big a speed differntial
You guys may think you are riding gods and you cause no issues. The reality is that it needs to be done for the lowest common denominator
I said dicks will be dicks whether it's at 15 or 20, it's often not only about speed but closeness, lack of bell/warnings etc too, not only speed related. Pass me in your car at 50+ right on the other side of the road and all's fine, or at very low speed when I know you're there if it's a bit close, etc.
But in general, a Q of mechanical limitations to resolve lowest-level user idiocy without reducing the item to less useful or useless for the majority who aren't idiots? There's reasonable safe design and there's "Here's the safest bike we could make - " ..and there's a brick on the table. 15 vs 20mph isn't in that area, it's a grey area point I'd say, it's subjective whether it's a good thing either way. It's interesting from a design/spec/use pov anyway.
What you are arguing for is to create a new class for the UK.
Could that be.. no.. maybe.. a.. shhhh.. a brexit benefit? : ) It does feel like something that UK traffic conditions make more relevant.
I'm just saying that I would support raising the epac class limit to 20mph and would also support that only applying to a type of epac that isn't clearly a performance MTB, like we have EN ISO tests for MTBs that are different for City And Trekking bikes. Any negatives to going 5mph faster I've read here so far are already possible from non-e bikes and there's no practical solution for that, whatever the bike, aside from 'don't be a dick'.
On the flip side, would that added 5mph make a demonstrable difference to epac use levels or rider safety? I don't know, there's no data on that I know of. My hunch is it could aid sales appeal and take-up here, helping the perception of being part of traffic for non-enthusiast type riders, since that's one of the main barriers. Make or break? No probably not.
I haven’t read all the posts (so sorry if I’m repeating stuff)… but my opinion is that the current limits work and should stay. E-bikes mix well with other bikes on cycle paths, they still inspire you to pedal (a 20mph cut out would probably mean you rarely exceed the limit), are still faster than a normal bike when loaded on hilly commutes and any increase in speed will be have as many downsides are it has pluses.
Illegal e-bikes are a potential source of anti cycling friction and outrage; so although I’m not usually one for rules in this case I would support enforcement. But I feel that there should first be more education on the rules and the food delivery companies should be made to ensure they aren’t enabling non legal bike use. They could easily help their riders to obtain and use legal bikes… at the moment they are freeloading on riders who are braking the law and taking risks.
I don't trust ebikers I have seen a significant amount of idiot riding.
I don’t trust ebikers I have seen a significant amount of idiot riding.
You could say that about roadies, commuters, etc, should they all be banned from shared paths due to this, or have mechanical limits on all bikes to a 'safe' speed limit?
This naysayers in this thread seem to think that ebikers are all unskilled people who will be using their ebike in turbo mode and at 20mph all the time, i've rarely seen that on legal ebikes, yes i've seen muppets on their chipped bikes flying along, or the surron brigade, i don't think there's been any proof shown that ebikers have more pedestrian accidents either, a quick check on youtube and the likes doesn't show any on the first few pages, just a lot of commuters hitting pedestrians on road bikes or hybrids.
Also, this is similar to my argument in favour of escooters. <br />private escooters and various means of exceeding 15mph on an e-bike have something in common, their current illegality and as such attract a certain type of user. (And this will be on a sliding scale of increased illegality corresponding with increased dickishness and incompetence.)
Make it legal and more people will have them, and on average quality of rider will improve.
the temptation to ride like a dick on an ebike is increased hugely compared to a normal bike. Its just too easy to ride like a dick.
Why though? As regular cyclists we can obviously ride at 15.5mph for hours on end with not too much effort so why does having a motor getting me to that speed change my behaviour?
Deep question Kerley. something behavioral science might explain. My guess is its to do with frustration at slower vehicles / people in the way? like those tailgating dicks in BMWs?
I don't know. I have pondered about it. Normally I am an excessively polite cyclist but somehow the ebike leads me to want to ride like a dick . I normally resist it but its there. Humans are weird
This naysayers in this thread seem to think that ebikers are all unskilled people who will be using their ebike in turbo mode and at 20mph all the time, i’ve rarely seen that on legal ebikes,
I see it all the time on the local shared paths.
It is idiotic that they haven’t changed the law on e scooters. In most cities being able to use one will take a car off the road.
Apparently not true. The journeys that e-scooters replace are mostly walking, and some cycling, hence they're a net polluter.
You missed my sarcasm.
I think so in part..
speed pedelecs exist as a class under european laws sitting between a pedelec and a moped
... though these need insurance etc and I'm talking about a bike anyone can get on and ride, the epac, and revision of the scope of epacs so that 20mph cut-off is possible (where/how/on what all tbd). In all seriousness, post-Brexit we could do that for UK use but commercially it may be unrealistic.
If you have any sense you have a cycling uk membership or similar with 3rd party insurance.
I feel that there should first be more education on the rules and the food delivery companies should be made to ensure they aren’t enabling non legal bike use.
Agreed. The apps seem to get round a lot of liability or regulations by being a gig worker structure. Perhaps the apps should be responsible for liability related to the riders, part of me sees people struggling to make ends meet and it's a symptom of a bigger problem that needs to be tackled further up without making it harder for people to earn some money. Tax the apps to fund assisted purchase of certified epacs similar to C2W scheme maybe. One thing's for sure it shows how effective an e-moped can be around a city.
Bad for all concerned How exactly?
I’m concerned and I don’t think it would be bad for me…
Because having licences for some classes of bicycles opens the gates for licences for all kinds of bicycles.
It seems more like you want a motorbike of whatever power rating/fuel type but don’t fancy the extra faff of taking a test/registering the bike…
Or more succinctly “Gimmie some more Rights without the corresponding responsibilities!”…Nah…
I think you've totally missed my point. I'm saying I think the current limits are sufficient. We don't need more powerful/faster e-bikes. If anything, off the back of this thread, I'm coming to think that 15.5mph is too generous.
For those saying 20mph is too fast, you can do that any way, just unassisted
This. People talk like eBikes are speed limited, they aren’t they are assistance limited. Following this logic all bikes should have a 20 mph speed limit imposed which is bizarre.
I've got a road bike and eBike and using the eBike doesn’t turn me into an idiot. Regularly hit over 20mph with both.
This. People talk like eBikes are speed limited, they aren’t they are assistance limited. Following this logic all bikes should have a 20 mph speed limit imposed which is bizarre.
Weird argument though. I've hit 60mph on a road bike. Does anyone think we should set the assistance cut-off of e-bikes to 60mph?
20 mph would be too fast on a shared path, and that’s what most cycleroutes are
That's not where most cycling is done, though!
Deep question Kerley. something behavioral science might explain. My guess is its to do with frustration at slower vehicles / people in the way? like those tailgating dicks in BMWs?
I don’t know. I have pondered about it. Normally I am an excessively polite cyclist but somehow the ebike leads me to want to ride like a dick . I normally resist it but its there. Humans are weird
"I behave like this therefore it is an immutable law that all humans behave like this"?
Weird argument though. I’ve hit 60mph on a road bike. Does anyone think we should set the assistance cut-off of e-bikes to 60mph?
You’ve complete misunderstood the point being made. To make it simple eBike limits don’t need the assistance level to be raised to 20mph because they can go faster than that with leg power alone. Clear?
I think its naive to think 20mph zone would magically make cars drive at 20mph (much as I'd like it to). IIRC the Welsh changes only dropped the average speed by a couple of mph and I'm guessing it wasn't 22mph to start with. So even with 20mph ebikes you're still going to get Billy Transit driver wanting to do 24mph and get by (even if you assume it's not going to be 30mph anyway regardless of limit).
This is an interesting thread. Am noting various arguments pro and con for reuse in future pub discussions
Following this logic all bikes should have a 20 mph speed limit imposed which is bizarre.
A rather bizarre leap itself. Although that is higher than is recommended for shared paths.
The majority of people cant do 20mph on a bicycle at least not for any distance and without favourable conditions. If you look at speeds in the netherlands the average speed was closer to 10mph. Although, unsurprisingly, at least one study showed the e bikes were faster
I see it all the time on the local shared paths.
Even thought the limit on the ebikes is 15.5mph still?
The whole argument that you can do 20mph on an ebike so why change the assist is also weird, when you hit 15.5mph it's like hitting a wall, to get up to 20mph on a 25kg bike with inefficient setup is pretty hard to do for any distance, you end up just tripping the assist over and over again.
And again, i don't see most ebikers doing 15.5mph all the time, you go to FoD or any mountain biking place, on the fireroads they're doing 10mph or the likes, same on canal paths, etc, unless you are an absolute idiot you ride for the conditions and how busy it is.
The point to bear in mind is that while people on here might be super duper bike handlers a lot of people aren't, and a lot (the majority ) of bikes I see are being used for commuting. You line it up, stick it to max and off you go along the bike path in the morning and the evening. And people crash, a lot, and 20 in that circumstance is a fair bit different to 15.
exactly WBO - add to that all the delivery riders around here who are mainly on legal ebikes ( there is a place hiring them to delivery riders) but ride full pelt everywhere
Its the same arguement as " I am a driving god, 100 mph onthe motorways is safe for me"
The point to bear in mind is that while people on here might be super duper bike handlers a lot of people aren’t, and a lot (the majority ) of bikes I see are being used for commuting. You line it up, stick it to max and off you go along the bike path in the morning and the evening. And people crash, a lot, and 20 in that circumstance is a fair bit different to 15.
And i see most these people going slow on ebikes, just because you can go 15.5mph on full turbo with minimal input doesn't mean everyone does that, most of those folk tend to be a bit timid, and going slow around people, dogs, etc, etc, the way this thread is arguing it's just those weird assumptions being thrown about, the whole 'shared path' thing seems to be the entire argument, yet in reality, not the biggest issue out there in terms of accidents caused by cyclists, i tend to see people on shared paths being quite good most of the time, bar the strava time trialists and a fair few dog walkers, but they don't tend to have ebikes.
This fella pulled out in front of me without a second glance. That’s me doing 40mph and he’s pulling away from me.
That’s him continuing to do 45mph plus right into the 30mph limit.
Imagine sharing a cycle path with that…Anything even capable of having the limit removed or anything without a limit should be prohibited from import.
Anything in breach of that limit should be crushed.
The limit is fine, the speed limit in all towns should drop to 20mph.
This fella pulled out in front of me without a second glance.
Indeed terrible... But what was sir snapping pictures from behind the wheel with?
That’s me doing 40mph and he’s pulling away from me.
That's good clear evidence... may be worth getting it deleted!
^ Surron, rider has a messenger bag of coke to deliver.
The hyperfocus on shared use paths is weird considering that's not where most pedestrians and cyclists are, and not where most pedestrian-cyclist interactions take place!
Anything even capable of having the limit removed or anything without a limit should be prohibited from import.
Let's start by banning the import of cars that can travel in excess of 70mph...
politecamera action - it is in Edinburgh. Large network of shared use paths that are main cyclist commuting routes and also now a cyclepath on the pavement on leith walk. Leith walk in particular is really bad 'cos of the poor design and heavily used by delivery riders on ebikes - legal ones mainly
That would be me hunched down in the seat to get Glass to capture the Speedo and the bike. It’s also why the image is quite ropey.
it is in Edinburgh. Large network of shared use paths that are main cyclist commuting routes and also now a cyclepath on the pavement on leith walk.
lol - you're taking your own experience and projecting it onto everyone else again. You're not seriously suggesting that most cycling and walking in Edinburgh is done on shared use paths, are you?
Let’s start by banning the import of cars that can travel in excess of 70mph…
The thing is though, you have to pass a test and have a licence to (legally) drive a car, and cars have to visibly display licence plates.
Yes, cars can go above the speed limit, but they're very identifiable. The same can't be said for e-bikes, so more rigidly enforcing speed restrictions seems sensible to me.
Yes, cars can go above the speed limit, but they’re very identifiable. The same can’t be said for e-bikes, so more rigidly enforcing speed restrictions seems sensible to me.
But cars aren't assisted by the motor, they are 100% powered by the motor, ebikes, as per the definition are pedal assist, so you have to pedal to then get a specific amount of power from the motor?
I'm finding it incredible folk on here are arguing like motorists against actual cyclists, you'll want ebikes to have registration numbers, insurance and vehicle excise duty within the next few posts 🤣
No - some of us are just happy with the law as it stands. Others want to change the law. Legal ebikes are no great issue tho the speed differentials can cause issues.<br /><br />its illegal motorbikes pretending to be ebikes most of us have issue with
not where most pedestrian-cyclist interactions take place!
Which is wrong. If the bikes are on the road then therte is no pedestrian / cyclist issues. On shared use paths there are - so yes - most cvylist / pedestrian interactions happen on shared use paths because they don't happen on roads. the two only ever meet on shared use paths.
Which is wrong. If the bikes are on the road then therte is no pedestrian / cyclist issues
"Interactions", TJ, not "issues", e.g. when pedestrians cross a road and a bike needs to stop for them.
