Inspired by reading the new motor/gearbox thing, and thinking e-bikes are a big compromise to fit legislation rather being a good thing designed from scratch, a bit like some tiny range hybrid cars built to reap tax advantages for fleets.
Lets imagine we were starting from a clean slate and e-bikes were allowed everywhere they are now, but didn't need to be pedalled. Or even have pedals. Still have a speed limit of around 30kph 25 kph so they aren't bringing massive speed differentials with other users they share with.
Would you ride/buy a pedal free ebike/scooter if they were legal? Would enough people still buy the assisted pedalling version that they were a viable product?
I probably wouldn't be walking down any shared use paths if the speed limit went up to 30kph
No, I pedal for the pleasure of exercise
Well basically a mini SurRon Light Bee X then
The vast majority of ebikes in Cambridge have been chipped to have no speed limit.
Overtook some kid on the way to private school one morning on an ebike who was doing 30mph. He can't have been more than 14. Even the posh kids get them chipped!
All the Deliveroo / Just Eat riders have DIY ebike conversions which never had a limit in the first place.
Oops, I misremembered the numbers, current e-bikes stay legal if they don't assist over 25kph, I will edit OP.
I’d like to see regular police sweeps for the throttle-controlled e-bikes. They’re a regular menace now along with electric scooters. I think part of the problem is how they break the connection between exertion and speed that allows e-bikes to be conflated with the bicycle.
I do think there is a place for faster e-bikes with compulsory third party insurance though, like the s-bikes of the Netherlands; but that place is not on cycle infrastructure or shared use paths.
its an electric assisted bicycle at the moment. what you are suggesting is a whole new class of vehicle for the UK. In amsterdam they have electric hire mopeds limited to 25kph that can go on cyclepaths and as above a speed pedelec class
I think the current law is good. I don't see need for change, only for enforcement and a press who re-enforce the 'that's an electric motorcycle' narrative when needed.
Well basically a mini SurRon Light Bee X then
Sort of, but speed limited to be shared use path friendly. Or at the commuter end of things:
https://www.dayimotor.com/citycoco/3000w-citycoco/citycoco-harley-scooter-belgium.html
In Netherlands, speed restricted mopeds used to be allowed on cycle lanes, though Amsterdam and Utrecht recently sent them back to play with the cars.
You can already buy electric motorbikes.
Of course, the added speed (and weight) brings with it added responsibilities so insurance and licensing become a requirement.
I think the current legislation is good, you can have either a motorcycle or an electrically assisted pedal cycle. We just seem to be failing in compliance with that legislation, with dodgy self builds, chipping and unrestricted imports supposedly destined for use on private land.
Something in between motor & pedal cycle would just further muddy the waters.
Ebike laws just aren't enforced anyway, just look at all the delivery riders whizzing about on illegal ebikes, they just seem to be tolerated.
The hire scheme scooters and e-bikes in Cambridge and elsewhere require a driving license, include insurance, are restricted to 15mph (and a lower limit in some geofenced areas), and are allowed on cycle infrastructure. I had an unpleasant experience with one being disabled in traffic, so would personally never now endorse that hire scheme model.
Would love them to align with USA, so a 20mph limit imposed, rather than the 15.5mph we have, mainly due to the fact that for most road/hardpack style routes, on flat or thereabouts you're averaging just over the current limit, so having a bike that's going in and out and just a real pain, 20mph seems to be a better number for the commuting population.
Would love them to align with USA, so a 20mph limit imposed,
TBH just go a 50cc moped route,allow 28mph once you’ve done a cbt and got a provisional licence and insurance.
If you can’t chuck it around a few cones you probably shouldn’t be er let loose.
As mentioned fine as it is but with a 20mph limit.
I doubt many would bother to derestrict them if that was the limit.
15.5 mph is too slow.
20mph is far too fast for cycleways. Its fine for experienced riders commuting in traffic but stupid for inexperienced ones and those on cycleways
In the netherlands the older folk on legal ebikes are causing and having a lot of crashes
20mph an hour limit is a great idea… especially for commuting… fewer cars is always good… but for road use only, not shared paths… and you’re getting into questions about insurance and licenses there as well.
It’s worth noting that the higher limit for ebikes in the USA results in restrictions on where you can use any ebike. I suspect we’d have more restrictions than the land or the free if we upped the limit. Be careful what you wish for…
I’m happy with the 15.5mph limit. If you want to go faster then pedal harder. If you don’t want to pedal then don't buy an ebike. There’s enough people grumping about e-bikes already without making them faster. They’re there to assist us, not do all the work. I think the 15.5mph limit is a good way of regulating the speed on cycle paths and trails.
Currently in the UK we can ride e-bikes in all the same places we can ride bikes, compare that to the US where they’re really quite limited in comparison and have a lot of trails that prohibit e-bikes.
I reckon you'd get more people out of cars more often with a product that didn't need pedalling. That would be a good thing. Something less 'bike/cycling' and more mini moped. Honda Cub, Vespa, that kind of appeal just lighter and cleaner with the ease of use of a bike (no tax mot etc).
Frustrating that type approval / standards haven't made it possible yet. If the limit stayed at 25kph 250W then I don't really see what difference pedal assistance or a throttle makes to the type of use or legality.
It is idiotic that they haven't changed the law on e scooters.
In most cities being able to use one will take a car off the road.
I understand the need for registration and insurance and that is fine with me. But the current lack of anything is dumb.
Plus the media has a usual blown everything out of proportion
I think the current law is good. I don’t see need for change, only for enforcement and a press who re-enforce the ‘that’s an electric motorcycle’ narrative when needed.
Absolutely this.
So many issues in the last 25 years have become "we need new legislation" when tne laws we have are sufficient if enforced properly. Catch them, fine them/the parents, scrap the illegal vehicle.
Seem to remember back in the Blair years there was talk of legislation to tackle antisocial drinking - so drunk and disorderly then?
Lets imagine we were starting from a clean slate and e-bikes were allowed everywhere they are now, but didn’t need to be pedalled. Or even have pedals. Still have a speed limit of around 30kph 25 kph so they aren’t bringing massive speed differentials with other users they share with.
Would you ride/buy a pedal free ebike/scooter if they were legal?
Under those conditions I'm even less likely to use one. The only thing that gets me over a regular bicycle is range anxiety and a good walk pushing a heavy object when it runs out of power.
The presence of a throttle is not itself illegal if it is a conversion kit, as long as the cut off speed and power match the regulations.
Perhaps there should be more demonstrations of ebikes to the public ao they can see how much easier they are to pedal when assisted and how the different assistence levels can be used - might make more of them think that they are a viable option and a throttle is not needed - especially as the range when peddling is much better than using just a throttle.
"The presence of a throttle is not itself illegal if it is a conversion kit, as long as the cut off speed and power match the regulations."
What are the regs with regard to cut off speed and power?
I regularly see an old bloke on my commute on a BSO converted to electric going uphill at almost 30mph whilst not pedalling🤣
“ The presence of a throttle is not itself illegal if it is a conversion kit, as long as the cut off speed and power match the regulations.”
You can have a throttle but you have to have a cut-out if the cranks stop rotating. If the motor works when the cranks aren’t turning (apart from a moment of over-run) then it isn’t a road legal ebike.
I like to pedal my ebike but I don’t have a problem with speed and power limited two wheeled electric vehicles that you don’t pedal being used in bike lanes etc. But there need to be tight regulations about making them impossible to derestrict, giving them integrated lights and reflectors (because many of the illegal escooters are invisible in the dark), and making them so they have decent brakes and geometry and wheels that can handle potholed roads.
Would love them to align with USA, so a 20mph limit imposed, rather than the 15.5mph we have, mainly due to the fact that for most road/hardpack style routes, on flat or thereabouts you’re averaging just over the current limit, so having a bike that’s going in and out and just a real pain, 20mph seems to be a better number for the commuting population.
This.
60 and 50mph- 20mph
20 30 and 40- 15mph
In town centre- 12mph
GPS controlled
“ Would love them to align with USA, so a 20mph limit imposed, rather than the 15.5mph we have, mainly due to the fact that for most road/hardpack style routes, on flat or thereabouts you’re averaging just over the current limit, so having a bike that’s going in and out and just a real pain, 20mph seems to be a better number for the commuting population.”
20mph totally doesn’t work with far too many urban bike lanes. Either keep them at 15.5 or make them like 50cc scooters with tests and insurance etc and 30mph limits.
I used an ehite e scooter on Cambridge this week. Had a hospital appointment and yomped from the train station to Addenbrooke's but on seeing so. Many being used on my walk I decides to try a e scooter for the way back. Complete revaluation on how fast and convenient it is. And because it's a hire scheme there no need to worry about theft.
What are the regs with regard to cut off speed and power?
15.5mph and 250w continous, same as for normal epacs.
You can have a throttle but you have to have a cut-out if the cranks stop rotating. If the motor works when the cranks aren’t turning (apart from a moment of over-run) then it isn’t a road legal ebike.
you've made that up - I have never seen anything in writing that says that - you need to provide a link.
There was an article on Pedelecs soon after the 2016 reg change which confirmed that twist and go on a converted ebike was legal as long as the power and speed limits were followed, and I wrote to the DfT for confirmation, which they provided by saying that the web article was correct. I have quoted their answer several times on this site, one fairly recently.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/
I think the current legislation is good, you can have either a motorcycle or an electrically assisted pedal cycle. We just seem to be failing in compliance with that legislation, with dodgy self builds, chipping and unrestricted imports supposedly destined for use on private land.
Something in between motor & pedal cycle would just further muddy the waters.
I have to agree, the necessary bases are basically already covered by what's already allowed under current legislation, if eeeb chippers, Surron-ists and deliverooists feel they deserve some alternative classification/special treatment that's all well and good, but they've generally not demonstrated the ability to work within a simple set of rules or behave in a responsible fashion so why should the rest of us have to make further allowances and compromises for them?
It’s not very clear what’s legal - many sources say twist and go is not legal above 3.7mph - but what is clear is that any twist and go bike since 2016 has to be type approved.
but what is clear is that any twist and go bike since 2016 has to be type approved.
any new bike with twist and go has to be type approved, unless it only assists to 6kmh (there may be a change for vehicles sold after 2018, I haven’t checked), but a conversion of a bike that has been previously used on the road with a kit can be twist and go to the full 15.5mph, as the article I linked to points out and I’ve had confirmed as well.
I was also sent this guidance:
Guidance on European Type Approval for certain Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPC)
New European rules affecting certain Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles
This note provides guidance to help retailers, manufacturers, importers and dealers ensure that they do not sell or register non-compliant electrically assisted pedal cycles. The term Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPC) includes vehicles that are capable of being propelled either by pedalling or by electric power, but does not include more powerful electric bikes (over 250W), those which can exceed 25km/h (15.5mph) (“speed pedelecs”) or those which cannot be propelled by pedal, all of which are treated as mopeds or scooters in UK. A separate guidance note covers the situation as regards the domestic laws in Great Britain covering these vehicles and the criteria they must satisfy in order not be classed as motor vehicles.
New European laws affect certain EAPC sold new after 1 January 2016. If you import, manufacture or sell certain EAPC then you need to be aware of the law.
1. New requirement from 1 January 2016 – Type Approval for “twist and go” EAPC.
Certain electrically assisted pedal cycles are specified in GB law as not being motor vehicles and thus not subject to the requirements for registration, tax, driver licensing, compulsory insurance, helmet wearing and annual roadworthiness testing that would otherwise apply to all motorised two wheel vehicles. Within the GB definition of Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle there are two distinct classes – cycles which can only obtain power assistance when the rider is pedalling, and those where power can be obtained even when the rider is not pedalling, often known as “Twist and go”.
1.1 Cycles which cannot obtain power assistance when the rider is not pedaling
Under European law (Regulation 168/2013: Article 2-2 (h)) these cycles are exempt from EU type approval.
1.2 Cycles where power can be obtained even when the rider is not pedalling (twist and go)
Under European law these cycles are categorised as “L1e-A” and are required to obtain EU or domestic type approval. They are not required to be registered. There is however an exemption for cycles where power is available only up to 6 km/h without pedalling, to help start-up, and these are exempt from type approval.
2. Is there some leeway for in-scope EAPC models that were in stock or on sale prior to 1 January 2016?
Yes. We believe that in-scope EAPC without type approval can continue to be sold by importers if they were manufactured and imported prior to 1 Jan 2016. Article 12 of 168/2013 states that importers shall place on the market only compliant vehicles, suggesting that EAPC already placed on the market prior to 1 January 2016 can continue to be sold off. This does not permit the import or manufacture of new in-scope EAPC without approval after this date.
3. What forms of type approval exist?
2.1 Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA), which is an inspection normally carried out by the Driver and Vehicle Services Agency (DVSA), formerly VOSA. An EAPC will be treated as a low power moped. For more information on how to apply, details of the requirements, the fee and so on, see:
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/motorcycle-single-vehicle-approval
2.2 European Type Approval (ECWVTA), which is available from the UK Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA) or from type approval authorities in other member states, for example KBA in Germany. More information on the requirements is given below.
4. European type approval – the requirements for EAPC in scope (see para 1.2 above) 4.1 Requirements of European type approval from 1 Jan 2016
We have been advised that initially the only requirement for in-scope EAPC is on lighting: An Automatic Headlamp On (AHO) facility must be fitted. Essentially, a bicycle front lamp which the manufacturer declares complies with ISO 6742-1:1987 must be fitted and designed to be lit automatically when the vehicle is in motion. This could be via dynamo or other technical solution. Under domestic law (The Pedal Cycle Safety Regulations 2010) a number of reflectors must be fitted to a new bike so it would be advisable to cover them in the type approval in preparation for a full type approval as per paragraph 4.2 below. In addition, a manufacturer’s Conformity of Production will need to be demonstrated to the VCA (or overseas approval authority).
4.2 Requirements of European type approval for vehicles sold after 1 Jan 2018
From 1 Jan 2018 all EAPC which are of the “twist and go” type will need a full type approval to 168/2013. This encompasses a long list of requirements, on lighting, brakes, and so on, although in case of lights and tyres, “bicycle” CEN standards are accepted, and low speed vehicles are exempt from some requirements.
5. What are the penalties for not having type approval?
The relevant domestic regulations are in draft form and will be subject to a short consultation soon. Currently a range of fines are envisaged as penalties, depending on the severity and persistence of the offence. After modification following any comments received, the regulations will be published and enter into force immediately.
6. Q&A
Why are certain EAPC (the “twist and go” types) required to have type approval?
This was decided during a European negotiation and the majority view among member states was that requiring type approval was appropriate for these vehicles. Once obtained, type approval means that the vehicle can be sold throughout Europe without further inspection. This should result in lower costs for consumers and help exporters.
What about electric pedal cycles which are not EAPC under British law as the power exceeds 250W, or the powered speed can exceed 15.5mph (25kph)?
These vehicles, regardless of the precise mode of power assistance, are classified as mopeds in Great Britain and like any moped, type approval has been a requirement since 2003. Depending on the maximum power and speed the vehicles will be categorised in Europe as L1e-A (not exceeding 1000kW or 25 km/h) or L1e-B (not L1e-A, and up to 4kW and 45km/h).
7 . G l o ssa r y
European type approval
Most two and three wheel motor vehicles are type approved before they can be sold and registered. Type approval is the process of a government appointed body (e.g. the UK government has appointed the Vehicle Certification Agency, VCA) certifying that a range of vehicles complies with relevant safety and
environmental laws. It is normally obtained by the manufacturer, as only he can guarantee the conformity of every vehicle he produces. Once a vehicle range is type approved, a manufacturer issues an EC Certificate of Conformity (EC CoC) with each vehicle to declare that it complies with the approved specification.
Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA)
Two and three wheel motor vehicles, including in-scope electric cycles that have not been type approved by the manufacturer must undergo an SVA inspection before they can be registered, to ensure they meet relevant safety and environmental standards. DVSA carry out MSVA testing in Great Britain, with DVA responsible in Northern Ireland.
8. Exports and sales in other EU member states
Other member states may have completely different domestic rules, although as a matter of principle they will be required to accept a vehicle with a full EU type approval. You may find that EAPC of a class subject to
type approval will be subject to registration, driver licensing and so on as if it were a moped – albeit some member states have a less onerous regime for mopeds. You will need to contact the vehicle or transport authority in those states, or a bicycle or motorcycle trade association, for more information.
9. Useful links
MSVA from DVSA (GB)
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/motorcycle-single-vehicle-approval
MSVA from DVA (Northern Ireland) – http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/the-motorcycle-single-vehicle-approval-msva-scheme
Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA) - http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/
EU Regulations on motorcycles – http://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/automotive/legislation/motorbikes- trikes-quads/index_en.htm
Motor Cycle Industry Association (MCIA) – http://www.mcia.co.uk/
Bicycle Association of Great Britain (BAGB) - http://www.bicycleassociation.org.uk/
The information in this document is a summary of the Department’s understanding of what the law requires. However, ultimately the interpretation of the law is a matter for the courts based on individual facts of any particular case. You are therefore advised to consult the relevant legislation and, if necessary, seek independent advice.
Department for Transport
I am in Beijing at the moment and haven't seen any ebikes like we have at home. Loads of small electric scooters with seats and quite a few of the tiny electric cars. No one seems to be in a hurry in either. Quite a few normal bikes but no ebikes as such.
It is idiotic that they haven’t changed the law on e scooters.......I understand the need for registration and insurance and that is fine with me
First they came for the e scooters and
I said nothing, as I didn’t ride one....
Bearing in mind the success of registration and insurance in eliminating dangerous driving, I'd have thought it was obvious we needed more enforcement of existing laws, not more laws no one has the resources to deal with
some places are getting rid of or reducing the use of escooters. Paris was one - because they are implicated so strongly in antisocial riding and injuries. I would like to see the law on them and ebikes enforced better. However ebikes do not create the same injury risk or antisocial behaviour
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65154854
If I didn't want to pedal, I'd get a license and buy an electric moped, but I want to pedal.
I went out with a local Facebook organised e-bike group in the spring. There were maybe about a dozen of us on an assortment of e-MTB's and e-commuter / hybrid bikes. At 54, I was one of the youngest members of the group and from the off, I was pretty much on the rivet. In my very weak defence, I've got my Levo's input dialled down so that I have to work in eco mode, but can bail out into trail when my back or my lungs start screaming at me. But from the outset with that group, I was off the back and chasing. I was getting no assist from the bike as I was over the 15.5mph limit for the majority of the ride. From what I gleaned from the final stop before the group all split and headed home, the ride leader had pretty much helped modify all the bikes in the group so they were running with the US style 20mph cut-off.
Barrelling along shared paths at 20mph is way too fast. Even at 15mph it's crazy fast to be overtaking people.
So I think the legislation as it stands is good. What we do need though is some sort of crackdown on these home made firestarter e-motorbikes that plague the city centres. Grrr!
B.
For those saying 20mph is too fast, you can do that any way, just unassisted, you go down any shared cycle path around here and you'll see normal bikes going 20mph or faster, you go down the bath/bristol route and you'll see roadies racing down there!
If you want to stop what you believe is unsafe speed on shared paths, then shouldn't we be asking the government to apply speed limits to shared paths as well?
Overtaking people, passing safely, etc is more down to the person than the speed, either you're considerate and slow down, give them a warning as to your presence and overtake, or you're not, and you shoot past them hoping they don't move.
Its much easier and very tempting to ride like an arse on an ebike. I know I have one. Experience on dutch cycleways shows that even 15.5 mph creates big speed differentials.<br /><br />Locally to me - ebikes are 99% of the fast cyclists on cycleways. I am never overtaken on mine and overtake most other non ebikes
E-scooters are different though as it is totally illegal to ride them due to the law not allowing for them.
Whatever is said about ebikes the law does allow for at least various forms of them. E scooters are not allowed in any way which is dumb.
If a level of registration is needed, as per the hire schemes then do be it. I am not in any way saying that bikes should be subject to the same.
This is ignorant whataboutism "First they came for the e scooters and
I said nothing, as I didn’t ride one…."
Tj - the paris regulation is for rental E-scooters, private ones are still allowed. But to provide a comparison how much airtime is now given to red light jumping bike riders? Limited now as they have found a new bogeyman in E-scooters
