it's just much more suited to riding when the wheels are sliding and the tyre-ground contact is more chaotic.
Aha, and that is maybe the crux of it, I was first convinced of the merits of the Superfly on the Corrieyairack pass, which isn't especially technical and my buddy got down it fine on his gravel bike, but I was loving the feeling of just 'surfing' down with only a sort of general sense of contact with the ground.
What's a typical 'trail'? My head angle is 72° and the trail is apparently 68mm (referring to geo charts here).
Typical for a gravel bike? Ground trail is what most brands quote, 65-75mm seems a common range. Road bikes at 56-62mm. MTBs way out ~100mm or more.
http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/trailcalc.php - useful online tool that shows both trail (ground) and mechanical trail.
Mechanical trail is another measurement and more relevant to actual steering feel, for some reason we seem to quote ground trail as the standard. And they're proportional, roughly, so comparisons are valid as long as it's a similar general geometry and both are the same measurement.
These are all very good thoughts:
“What is engaging to you and me is probably different because we ride differently. I might like a razor-sharp cornering feel or I might prefer a bike that can really thrown into a corner to see what happens.
I don't like slack (longer trail) gravel bikes, I know that much. I like a lighter more neutral steering feel.
…Nothing could make me like [a very] low trail steering feel. The more I thought about why the more I realised it's mechanically flawed and just a bad idea for anything but a loaded bike on hard surfaces. On any looser or softer surface forget it. Poor steering feedback too, you realise how much you rely on that feedback.
…when the steering axis is much further ahead of the tyre contact the whole caster effect system stays in line over a wider range of situations. It creates a more carvy kind of cornering feel, more opposite-lock bias in the steering if it slides, it's just much more suited to riding when the wheels are sliding and the tyre-ground contact is more chaotic. But that distance creates a lever, the flop or torque on the steerer (which also adds to feedback and creates a flowy, carve-y steering - how that works with the rider and biases how we ride is the fascinating bit of rider-bike interaction.”
I do recall that when I came back from a holiday where I’d pootled about a bit on Dutch bikes my slack MTB felt weird for about 10 minutes riding on the road to work. Years ago I had a -2 deg headset fitted to my hardtail that had a 65.4 deg static head angle beforehand and when my LBS test rode it they said it felt like it was broken - but I got on it and said “yes, that’s better.” It’s like the flip-flop around a car park tells me that it’ll feel great once it’s up to speed or pointed down hill.
That slow/heavy steering, leaning the bike to corner not turning the bars, that’s how I like a bike to handle. Is this connected with me preferring to ride standing up with my seat dropped? And also riding with a tall stack from BB to grips?
Controlling the bike mostly from feet and hips, standing tall, only weighting the bars if a flat loose corner needs the front tyre sticking down, otherwise it’s head up, carvy, poppy, jumpy, drifty. We were riding down one of the very fast SDW descents on Sunday and I realised I was deliberately choosing the roughest line possible for fun!
At some point I’ll borrow a friend’s gravel bike as it feels like everyone I ride with has one - I guess I’ll have to swap the pedals to flats… 🙄😉
I do wonder though how a slack but light hardtail with a shorter or rigid fork, wide range gearing and fast tyres plus some bar-ins for aero would work on a group gravel ride for a slack addict like myself?
Reclaim Cross-Country!
Yeah but actually there *is* such a thing as gravel riding and gravel bikes are well designed for it.
There just isn't much of it in England.
That slow/heavy steering, leaning the bike to corner not turning the bars, that’s how I like a bike to handle. Is this connected with me preferring to ride standing up with my seat dropped? And also riding with a tall stack from BB to grips?
Controlling the bike mostly from feet and hips, standing tall, only weighting the bars if a flat loose corner needs the front tyre sticking down, otherwise it’s head up, carvy, poppy, jumpy, drifty. We were riding down one of the very fast SDW descents on Sunday and I realised I was deliberately choosing the roughest line possible for fun!
At some point I’ll borrow a friend’s gravel bike as it feels like everyone I ride with has one - I guess I’ll have to swap the pedals to flats…
I do wonder though how a slack but light hardtail with a shorter or rigid fork, wide range gearing and fast tyres plus some bar-ins for aero would work on a group gravel ride for a slack addict like myself?
sounds like you need an Evil Chamois Hagar
Gravel bikes are really for gravel roads. There are millions of miles of the stuff in the USA, not so much in the UK. I mean, you can always take your gravel bike out on an MTB ride if you want, but it's not really the right tool for the job. There used to be "rough stuff fellowship" who would take their Dawes tourers out for a carry through places like the Lairig Ghru but really that's just a good walk ruined.
Yep, I think it depends on what type of locally accessible terrain you have on you doorstep , although gravel bikes have the benefit of extending that doorstep.
I’m in Spain and we have plenty of gravel roads as well as quiet tarmac so a good interesting ride is achievable (although there’s the issue of having gravel that goes somewhere)
So 0ver here yes but U.K. a little more nuanced,
