I think my love affair with gravel (bikes) is coming to an end. We did a spectacular loop from Crieff yesterday, aiming for 160km but ultimately managed 140km as we had to get home. Lots of classic stuff like Little Glenshee, Griffin Windfarm, the Birks of Aberfeldy climb up to the Glen Quaich Road, and new bits like Glen Fender.
However the over-riding impression (one that I've been forming for the last few big rides) is that at no point did I not miss my faithful old 29er. Even on the climbs the sensation of hanging up, being bounced around and generally just getting the crap beaten out of me was impossible to ignore.
I've recently upgraded to 45mm tyres, so was surprised that I was finding it such hard going. Granted I might not have dropped pressures enough (I started at 31F, 33R at approx 100kg rider + kit weight, and let a bit out en route) so will give it one more try with inserts fitted and Silca's recommended pressures of 25/27 psi. That said they already felt a bit squishy and I would swear it felt harder going on the tarmac bits that it ever has done before (harder going even than the 2.2" Mezcals on my hardtail).
I also wondered if position on the bike could somehow 'amplify' the sensation of bumps and hanging up, I've been struggling recently with fit and I think my saddle is still slightly too far back. I've shortened the front end so it felt a bit lighter and more playful, but the hands still took a hammering.
Not sure what my question is really, I guess just trying to figure out why I'm not enjoying being 'underbiked' as much as I used to! At least a recent 350km tour on the 29er showed me that the MTB really doesn't feel like the impediment I thought it would be, even on fast gravel and cyclepaths. Something I know some people on here have been saying for years! 😆
I see them as a mis-selling scandal, have done for ages. Sadly, there will likely not be any gov compensation scheme for those looking to move back to the 29 HT they should have bought in the first place.
I have a pretty specific type of ride where I'll take a gravel bike and as such, it's on 38's, no dropper etc. I like it for its light weight and zippyness in the right environment.
Anything outside that and I'm taking an MTB. I don't get a perverse thrill from being underbiked and gravel is my least partaken discipline though
Personally I find it fun for a short blast.
The responsiveness to acceleration and the need to put a lot of handling effort in on even moderately technical terrain to get the best out of it is something that is best enjoyed in short high intensity bursts.
30ish miles is probably my longest ever ride on the gravel bike.
140 rough hilly kms does not sound like the sort of ride that most mortals will be able to get the best out of a skinny tyred rigid bike.
I don't know your route, but it sounds like you did a cross country ride not a gravel ride?
(R)evolution of the discipline...stick bigger tyres, suspension, droppers and good brakes on a bike and riders naturally ride harder stuff...
Gravel bikes are great ... But you have to choose your gravel carefully!
I've a Ti gravel bike with 45mm tyres, and a Ti HT 29er (currently with a rigid fork, but also have a 150mm RS Revelation!) with a fast 2.4/2.2 tyre combo.
I use the gravel bike a lot, especially for local 2-3 hour mixed surface rides. It's possibly to overlook the discomfort of being under biked when it's only a few short sections of trail within a fairly short ride.
Getting into longer (5-10 hours) or multi-day rides, I'll now quite often choose the HT for a bit more comfort and control on longer sections of chunkier gravel.
Depends on the route of course ...
Eg, Dirty Reiver - I'd take the gravel bike. North Yorks Moors 300 - I'd take the HT. Forthcoming 'The Land Between' I'll take the gravel bike. If I were to consider the Dales Divide, it'd be the HT.
TBF that is a massive day out, I think I would feel beat up no matter what I was riding one way or another. For me drop bars are faster on the smooth sections so on that ride I would be feeling the strain from using a HT on those.
I ride a gravel bike on everything and enjoy it. Red grade biking is fine but I cannot do the black grade stuff anymore but I only ever have one bike at a time and never had anything bigger than an xc bike so it suits my style well.
TBH, reading your (many) posts over the past few years I wondered when you'd come to this conclusion. Whether it's been comfort, back issues, punctures or squeaky brakes it seems you've always had one or more issues with your gravel bike(s).
Having the luxury of owning both a gravel bike AND a 29er HT I choose the bike according to the route and there are many, many routes where the Topstone just feels like the perfect option, particularly (and not surprisingly) those with linking tarmac sections.
I think there's also something about being on the same niche of bike as those you are riding with as you ideally want the strengths and weaknesses of each to align. There's no point in being the one to zoom down the more gnarly tracks only to then be struggling to keep up on faster/easier sections (though this might be less of an issue if you're amongst the fitter folk in your group).
I love my gravel bike, but the idea that gravel bikes are the right tool for stuff you normally ride on a mountain bike is just silly. They have their place, and they can cope with the unexpected, but if there's properly rough terrain, give me riser bars and big tyres every time. For a mix of road, smoother trails, and the occasional bit of rough stuff, gravel bike is perfect. They can cope with things, but it doesn't make them the right tool for the job.
Tend to agree. My favourite stuff to ride on a gravel bike is stuff that would be rideable but not much fun on a road bike. A similar pattern applies to my hardtail/gravel bike.
Something that really helped me enjoy my gravel bike more was the realisation that I didn't have to minimise tarmac time at all costs. Granted I'm blessed with lots of quiet scenic roads (as is the OP), but treating my rides as a chance to get to some cool places rather than a series of challenges to overcome has made a big difference to me.
I'm also aware that I'm in an extremely privileged position that I have nice road, gravel and mountain bikes that I can choose from depending on my choice of route.
Personally I find it fun for a short blast.The responsiveness to acceleration and the need to put a lot of handling effort in on even moderately technical terrain to get the best out of it is something that is best enjoyed in short high intensity bursts.
Sort of that, I really liked mine for lunchtime rides because inevitably when you're not driving somewhere then the ride ends up 50/50 on paved roads, and the gravel bike was quicker right up until things got technical.
I also did some really long rides on it, but then I've also done really long rides on HT's. There's a tipping point somewhere between the two where flat bars gave me numb hands over 100 miles, and gravel bikes beat me up or limited the fun bits. There wasn't really any way of avoiding that, just had to accept that there's some sort of maximum limit for the equation
comfort = (hand positions x suspension) / (distance x roughness)
Maybe FS gravel bikes with 50mm tyres really are the solution to 100mile XC rides. But that would be a pretty niche type of ride for most people and therefore in the majority of cases a 29er will do the job just as well right up until your hands go numb.
treating my rides as a chance to get to some cool places rather than a series of challenges to overcome has made a big difference to me.
This. It's a different thing to mountain biking. Just out for wander.
Interesting post as I have been pondering selling my gravel bike. Most gravel riders seem quite evangelical but I've owned mine for a few years and just "don't get it". If I'm offroad I'd rather be on MTB, if I'm on road I'd rather be on a road bike. I use mine to commute but a cheap Boardman commuter bike would do a better job. I don't have canal tow paths to ride and although I'm surrounded by forest where I live (Scottish Borders) why would I ride the gravel paths and miss out on the MTB options for which we are world famous?!
I've been hanging on to it in the hope I can use it for touring but time never really allows.
I've never quite clicked with the feel of the bike either, maybe its just a poor fit but I never really look forward to riding it. Will give it a few months but it is starting to feel a bit N-1.
Gravel bikes have their place. . . Hanging on a wall as art. 😁
We get a few around here on the fire roads. The ex-roadies are still miserable, all wondering when they can get back on the blackstuff. The ex-mountain bikers are all wishing they were on their mountain bikes.
One of the latest Trek bikes has front and rear suspension:
Marketing BS.
I would not want to ride my hardtail on routes I use gravel bikes for, but for me 45mm is bare minimum. 50mm on my main gravel bike and bigger on another that blurs the lines between gravel and MTB (but with taller ratios and a useful variety of positions).
Sadly, there will likely not be any gov compensation scheme for those looking to move back to the 29 HT they should have bought in the first place.
Well, I'm hoping the ever-increasing width of gravel tyres will soon mean I have more choice for my ageing 29er hardtail that doesn't really like anything much wider than 2.25"
I bought a gravel bike and enjoyed it so much I started to use it on more XC-type rides, then I started to miss my MTB again, so bought a 29-er MTB with drop bars, then put a 120mm fork on it , and it's brilliant, and I've been riding it for nearly 10 years now, but just recently have started to miss the extra chuckability flat bars give you, so would like to go back to a proper proper MTB again - but I think I'd want to keep this one too just cos it's so versatile and great on the bits in between and on tarmac stretches, etc … it's just really difficult to bunny hop a drop-bar bike, I find
Gravel bikes are really for gravel roads. There are millions of miles of the stuff in the USA, not so much in the UK. I mean, you can always take your gravel bike out on an MTB ride if you want, but it's not really the right tool for the job. There used to be "rough stuff fellowship" who would take their Dawes tourers out for a carry through places like the Lairig Ghru but really that's just a good walk ruined.
I have a CX bike which is at the road end of the spectrum. It's used for road and off road with the appropriate 'wheel/tyre options'. I've done a 350km tour with it (off road and camping), possibly under biked at points, but walked it, but my FS really isn't appropriate with a load of luggage (overnight in a pubs is fine), not camping.
It's my most used bike after the commuter. Got a set of Mavic Cosmics (alloy) for road, and standard Mavics for off-road. 38mm light gravel tyres. TBH, it's not that much slower on the black stuff. I have a lot of fairly mild bridleways which link nicely into my road routes - one gravel track avoids a rather nasty main road descent which is one of the ways out of where I live for 'leisure rides'. My FS is a bit over biked locally, unless I head off into the Peaks. I've hardly ridden the FS since picking up the CX bike. The CX bike if far better on the crappy back lanes than my road bikes.
Surprisingly thoughtful responses, thanks, I was expecting a dozen variations on 'Well, obviously!' 😎
I don't know your route, but it sounds like you did a cross country ride not a gravel ride?
The crux of the issue I think. This is not a route I would ever have planned as an MTB ride, virtually no singletrack and based on fast, 'good' landrover tracks. Basically I think I need to learn to distinguish between likely 'champagne' gravel and 'hill track' gravel. I've managed longer rides on the gravel bike where perhaps it was been more of the former and less of that latter...
For a mix of road, smoother trails, and the occasional bit of rough stuff, gravel bike is perfect.
Good description, I think early doors I had realised that a sort of 45/45/10 split of tarmac, smooth gravel and a sprinkling of rough gravel was perfect. I guess yesterday's effort was more like 30% tarmac, 50% rough/fast gravel, and 20% smooth gravel.
I think there's also something about being on the same niche of bike as those you are riding with as you ideally want the strengths and weaknesses of each to align.
Actually the only reason I was on the gravel bike yesterday is that I knew the other guy would have been on his, and I've enjoyed some big days on the hardtail when others have been on gravel bikes (mine was broken at the time or something) and I've felt bad for them, especially those on 1x gravel having to walk up anything moderately steep or loose 😆
Ah well, a useful exercise in identifying appropriate routes if nothing else!
A road bike won the gravel world champs and a gravel bike won a road crit
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-gear/gravel-bikes-replace-endurance-bikes/
Just pick the right tool for the job.
yes I'm sure you're right sorry - spent my formative years there but very much England-based these days. Have had a few nice gravel(ish) rides up there on our MTBs and yes a gravel bike would have been lovely.
At its inception Gravel was very much a road discipline - paved & unpaved or 50/50 (old hybrid territory). It hasn't so much 'changed' as expanded (probably driven by the marketing machine). Now gravel also includes full off-road with 2"+ mtb tyres on what are essentially dropbar mountain bikes although there are regular threads on here from folk looking for a 'gravel' bike that'll double up as a road bike.
I don't think gravel is a discipline any more, it's more of a master category (like mountain biking) that covers a wide range of stuff. In the end it's just riding bikes so ride the bike you're happiest with.
I'm still happy riding what would now probably be now called allroad (what happened to road+?) on a rigid steel hardtail as I've always done, I seem to struggle with curly bars (although I am trying).
Well, I'm hoping the ever-increasing width of gravel tyres will soon mean I have more choice for my ageing 29er hardtail that doesn't really like anything much wider than 2.25"
I saw somethign that compared wide gravel tyres against narrow XC tyres, slightly surprisingly the XC tyres were substantially lighter because they were designed from the outset to be ~2.2" tyres. The gravel tyres were still just scaled up ~33mm CV tyres, and sill therefore designed to resist the inevitable pinch flatting that comes with skinny tires.
@thecaptain - no shortage of gravel up in Scotland.
Actually this might be an interesting exercise, can you give an example of what you consider Scottish 'gravel'? I guess in the context of a long ride and not just a short section of something rougher. Curious if my poor choices yesterday would have been blindingly obvious to others 🤣
I'll submit Glen Almond, a tiny bit rough/wet at the top but very smooth and fast for most of the glen.
Gravel bikes are really for gravel roads. There are millions of miles of the stuff in the USA,
I've not ridden much gravel, but this is very much my conclusion from all the coverage and talking to various folks. It doesn't really translate as well to places in Europe where there's much clearer difference between "Road" and "off-road"
@13thfloormonk - this is what you definitely need!
They've always felt like this to me. Much closer to a road bike than an xc bike.
You can make them more capable with flared bars, massive tyres etc. but for me it seems like a lot of effort to make it just like a 29er xc bike, so i purchased a 29er xc bike
some uk places do have a lot more gravel fireroads though
I rode the Marches and Castles tour on my Digger. Loaded up (but B&Bing so not super heavy). Dropper post, 650B ramblers I think. Pretty wide. Absolutely left me in bits. The second day over the Mynd was 1800m of climbing and about 80km. My mate was on his hightower. Sure he was slower on the road sections but he was having a lot more fun than me up and down!
Some of this was due to not really riding gravel bikes enough. The digger was also pretty short. But after four days, I decided I was done with drop bar bikes for any kind of riding (I don't ride road). Sold it. No regrets. I'm sure there are routes where it would be fantastic, but I'm probably not interested in those, or I'd just sub-optimally ride my steel hardtail with fast 2.2 tyres.
can you give an example of what you consider Scottish 'gravel'? I guess in the context of a long ride and not just a short section of something rougher.
One of my regular rides would be from home to Tromie/Feshie and back but there are options in all directions, including the Burma Road, Speyside Way, Dava, Ryvoan.
The Corrour loop from Dalwhinnie would also qualify I reckon, with the only rougher bit being the descent to Rannoch.
Actually this might be an interesting exercise, can you give an example of what you consider Scottish 'gravel'?
I'm in East Fife, I know from previous posts you have ridden quite a bit here. My typical gravel ride is low level estate tracks, bits of coastal path, the woody bits around Tentsmuir or Shell bay (nr Elie), linked up with tracks, rough minor roads and occasional bigger roads if totally unavoidable.
Anything with more elevation and I'm thinking Id rather be on an MTB.
Actually this might be an interesting exercise, can you give an example of what you consider Scottish 'gravel'?
a classic gravel loop to me would be the likes of an anticlockwise ride from Aviemore/Glenmore/Ryvoan bothy/NethyBridge/Boat of Garten/Aviemore.
For me this is more fun and engaging on a gravel bike than a MTB, the only exception being the very short section on way up to the bothy where the ‘gravel’ does get pretty rough, more loose chuckles than ‘gravel’, but as you know it’s only a very short section and still totally rideable, if a bit uncomfortable.
@13thfloormonk I’m at the start of the West Highland Way - all gravel bike friendly until Inversnaidish, and serves as a useful link onto John Muir Way and Rob Roy Way. Canal paths also provide useful links between sections to avoid tarmac as much as possible.
Obviously loads of stuff out Aberfoyle way, as well as plenty of other areas - D+G, Moray etc.
Couple of examples of local to me stuff. As it’s out the door stuff, there’s overlap on routes.
https://strava.app.link/DunmpMG003b
https://strava.app.link/6uwPEc5003b
https://strava.app.link/xMfoJ58003b
https://strava.app.link/eWIWej3Z03b
Enjoyable routes on a gravel bike, but would be dull and plodding on an MTB.
One of my regular rides would be from home to Tromie/Feshie and back but there are options in all directions, including the Burma Road, Speyside Way, Dava, Ryvoan.
Great examples 👍 One of the reasons I'm persisting with the gravel bike is I fancied a shot at the Moray Triangle in a day (clearly I'm enjoying 'in-a-day' type challenges at the moment). I sort of assumed Dava/Moray/Speyside Ways would be OK on a gravel bike.
Agree on the Dalwhinnie Loop also, just enough spice to be entertaining without exhausting.
a classic gravel loop to me would be the likes of an anticlockwise ride from Aviemore/Glenmore/Ryvoan bothy/NethyBridge/Boat of Garten/Aviemore.
For me this is more fun and engaging on a gravel bike than a MTB, the only exception being the very short section on way up to the bothy where the ‘gravel’ does get pretty rough, more loose chuckles than ‘gravel’, but as you know it’s only a very short section and still totally rideable, if a bit uncomfortable.
I came here to say the very same thing! 😂
Enjoyable routes on a gravel bike, but would be dull and plodding on an MTB.
Nice, I've just asked to follow so I can steal your routes in future 😎
Dull and plodding is a useful term though, for the longer days my pace is very much a plod (by design), which is perhaps why the MTB doesn't feel like an impediment as I'm not trying to maintain any sort of high average.
I'm in East Fife, I know from previous posts you have ridden quite a bit here. My typical gravel ride is low level estate tracks, bits of coastal path, the woody bits around Tentsmuir or Shell bay (nr Elie), linked up with tracks, rough minor roads and occasional bigger roads if totally unavoidable.
East Fife is a challenge, so much spankingly gorgeous stuff out there but so varied! I posted a big route we did last year where ultimately I think I was glad of the MTB, even though there was no significant long descents.
I use my gravel bike way more than my road or FS MTB but it does have it's limitations. For me gravel riding isn't trying to do XC MTB trails under-biked, it's about doing long rides that get me off roads as much as possible and onto forest roads and the odd bit of single track, with road sections to link them together where needed.
I do enjoy the challenge of the odd section of more technical trail whilst on a gravel ride but too much and it quickly gets old and more about survival than enjoyment.
Whilst I still do a lot of road riding I'm not a great fan of mixing it up with cars if there's a good alternative. Taking my FS MTB to a trail centre isn't it (although it's an enjoyable type of riding in itself) but gravel is. I can go on long rides with more interesting terrain than on a road bike, I can also start a ride from my house.
Most gravel bikes are still rigid so tyre width and pressure makes a huge difference to comfort (and grip), for me 45mm isn't enough for the gravel riding I want to do. My main set of wheels has 2.25" tyres on, whilst I do have a set with 45mm on they are semi slick for mostly road or non technical dry off road rides - they also measure nearly 49mm on the wide internal rims they are on. For sure some people seem to enjoy more technical gravel riding on sub 50mm tyres, I'm not one of them.
Does that mean I want a 32" FS gravel bike with 2.4" tyres? Probably not, at some point making a gravel bike more off road capable is going to detract from it's innate ability to cover long distances at a decent speed inc. on road sections and you basically end up with an XC MTB. I'd definitely consider a suspension fork though to see if it added comfort without making it less fun for non technical sections of trail.
I had a 35c gravel bike. It was rough on anything except the road. It was bought for Liverpool to Scarborough coast to coast gravel ride. Other than going through two pairs of brake pads and only having a front brake for 70 miles it was fine.
It was nicer on my ( potholed) road ride to work so rode it instead of the 25c road bike.
So then tried some xc/ bridleway stuff on the way home from work. The 35c bike managed this, but was rough on all the decents. Even a route that's 1/4 off road and 3/4 on road was annoying because the fun stuff was not fun
Sold the 35c road bike and bought a rigid xc bike that came with 50c gravel tires. Several thousand miles later when a tire work out I went for a 2.3 mezecal.
Still happy on the 4 mile road ride to work. Now happy on the road/ bridle way mix 10 or 20 miles home. It's unsurprisingly harder work than a 25c road bike but I don't feel like my hands are vibrated to bits after a week's commuting.
In the meantime time another road bike arrived. It's gone from 25c to 30c to 32c tires. The roads I ride have got progressively rougher and this works well for me. It tolerates a wee bit of smooth non muddy path ok, but has full road gp5000 tires so care is needed.
I know most of the route you describe very well and I wouldn't have thought for a moment of doing it on my gravel bike. I'm a big fan of long days in the hills on not very challenging terrain and for stuff like that I take my 12 year old Spesh Epic which runs 2.3 Fastracks. Apart from the tarmac bits it's faster everywhere and I'm not beaten up so much at the end of the day.
The gravel bike gets used for commuting where it gives me options for fun routes home.
I’m at the start of the West Highland Way - all gravel bike friendly until Inversnaidish,
You what....that's simply not true.
