Hi all,
After some advice on the rear shock from my ebike.
I have a Whyte E150s 29er with a Rockshox Deluxe Select+ shock with supposedly a really light tune.
As I'm getting more confident on the bike I'm starting to feel the limits of the shock compared to the fork with is now running a Charger RC2 2.1 damper.
The trouble I'm having is that it needs a lot of air to get close to the correct sag. Then it blows through its travel before eventually ramping up so much at the end it smacks me up the ass.
It also makes the rear of the bike feel quite wooden and I cant tell what its doing.
I understand that being a fatty that I'm going to need a lot of air to get sag.
What are my options?
Swap the shock? If so to what?
Shock tune? Would that still require the shock to need as much air?
Anything else??
sounds like volume spacers are needed. That'll potentially sort the issues you describe.
What are you classing as 'the correct sag' ?
How fat?
I weighed 115KG when I first got my eeb and I could get the shock on that working ok. It was a bit harsh off the top, but bottom outs were never a problem.
Ok,
So Im 115kgs
I think there is a max pressure limit on the shock of 350psi, I am at about 310psi to get 30% sag.
If I pump it up to 20% sag it feels to harsh.
Currently @ 30% sag the bike blows its mid travel just dropping of a kerb. However, even riding hard I dont think Ive bottomed the shock out as it feels like it ramps up loads at the end.
I think I would like a plusher feeling with more midrange support? Is that possible.
“ sounds like volume spacers are needed. That’ll potentially sort the issues you describe.”
Wrong way around - if it’s blowing through the midstroke and then ramping up too harshly it needs more air pressure and fewer tokens.
A heavier damping tune is needed and a larger volume shock with a bigger negative spring. I’d have a look at the Cane Creek DBair shocks - as a default they’re more damped and calm feeling and you can tune them yourself by twisting knobs. Avoid the Inline version if the shock is driven by a yoke.
A heavier damping tune is needed and a larger volume shock with a bigger negative spring. I’d have a look at the Cane Creek DBair shocks – as a default they’re more damped and calm feeling and you can tune them yourself by twisting knobs. Avoid the Inline version if the shock is driven by a yoke.
Do you mean a yoke as in the link that bolts to the bottom of the shock?
Would it be worth trying a shock tune on the Deluxe shock first or is it better just to go straight to a different shock?
Avoid the Inline version if the shock is driven by a yoke.
Elaborate ?
The CC shocks have a reputation for snapping shafts when used on yoke driven full suss, but I thought that was only the coil.
I'd call TFTuned or similar and ask their advice. They can either advise add/remove volume spacers or even a custom tune. It will cost a few £ but a lot less than a new shock that may have the same issue.
The CC shocks have a reputation for snapping shafts when used on yoke driven full suss, but I thought that was only the coil.
Well i certainly wasn't aware of that one... Thanks for the info fellas.
as per cgg advice - I'd look to remove any volume spacers from the shock air chamber,and try again.
If there are no volume spacers already installed then its probably time for a new shock - unless you can install a larger volume air chamber on the shock you have?
Well i certainly wasn’t aware of that one… Thanks for the info fellas.
Me neither. Good to know !!
I have the same issue with my Rockshox Super Deluxe Select on my Vitus 21 ebike. Though the suspension is extremely sensitive but it blows travel like nobodies business. I'm half tempted to get a coil.
On my other bike (non eeb) the Super Deluxe Ultimate does blow through travel but doesn't feel half as squishy and unsupportive, perhaps its helped by the large amount of anti squat.
There isn't any difference between the ultimate and select other than the fancy dials unless I'm missing something.
Had the same issue on my 5010 when I was at my heaviest (99kg). Smaller volume spacer and more pressure solved it.
A bigger negative chamber may also be useful combined with the above. Can get the Megneg upgrade for your shock for not too much money. Was one for sale in the classifieds this week with spacers (no connection to seller), not sure if it’s the right one though or still there.
A bigger negative chamber may also be useful combined with the above. Can get the Megneg upgrade for your shock for not too much money. Was one for sale in the classifieds this week with spacers (no connection to seller), not sure if it’s the right one though or still there.
I did look into the meg neg but apparently it requires even more air in the shock to start with and as Im getting close to the max air pressure i discounted it.
115kg is heavy, but it's not insanely heavy.. I honestly wouldn't expect you to be up near 350 anyway. Which tells me that something else in the tuning isn't quite right potentially. I am 90kg and run 220. I'd have thought mabye 280-300 for you, but that's still a chunk less than 350.
In some of the reveiws Ive read it says that Whyte spec the shock with a light tune so maybe its to do with that?
In some of the reveiws Ive read it says that Whyte spec the shock with a light tune so maybe its to do with that?
seriously - take the volume spacers out.
seriously – take the volume spacers out
To be honest Im not sure if there are any fitted?
as suggested above, try a meg neg. different bike and rider weight (105kg), but the meg neg made a noticeable difference to the supper deluxe. previously it was harsh and wooden or would blow through the travel - there was no middle ground. fpor £90 it was a relitively cheap experiment that worked well
To be honest Im not sure if there are any fitted?
It looks like on the e150 it has 2 tokens installed by default
as suggested above, try a meg neg. different bike and rider weight (105kg), but the meg neg made a noticeable difference to the supper deluxe. previously it was harsh and wooden or would blow through the travel – there was no middle ground. fpor £90 it was a relitively cheap experiment that worked well
Ive just spoke with TFtuned and the chap said at my weight not to go with a Megneg as they need 30% more air which would put me over the max shock pressure.
I’d still try taking a volume spacer out and upping the pressure. You’re still a good bit away from max. All it will cost is a bit of time.
Don’t get too hung up on the so called light tune. Unless the spring is right changing damping is just papering cracks.
Know anybody with a shockwiz? May give an idea of what is actually going on versus what is going on. Can be hired for a weekend as well fairly cheaply.
As an aside, what rear tyre you running? Reason I ask is my 27.5 e150 came with a double down rear casing which feels completely dead compared to an exo.
Isn't this the bike you are trying to sell.....
Why spend more money on it in that case?
I’d still try taking a volume spacer out and upping the pressure. You’re still a good bit away from max. All it will cost is a bit of time.
Don’t get too hung up on the so called light tune. Unless the spring is right changing damping is just papering cracks.
Know anybody with a shockwiz? May give an idea of what is actually going on versus what is going on. Can be hired for a weekend as well fairly cheaply.
Thanks, going to have a look and see if there are spacers in it tonight.
I had thought about a shockwiz, since upgrading the fork with the charger damper its massively outperforming the rear shock but could still be better itself.
Isn’t this the bike you are trying to sell…..
Why spend more money on it in that case?
I have had it up for sale but keep getting offered silly money for it. Ive also spent a lot on "upgrades" for it so would stand to lose a fair bit of cash.
That plus there is nothing on sale currently that would replace it as everywhere is out of stock.
Isn’t this the bike you are trying to sell…..
Nah can't be it's a well known fact that he keeps his bikes for years and never sells them because something isn't right.
Nah can’t be it’s a well known fact that he keeps his bikes for years and never sells them because something isn’t right.
I was wondering how long it would take for the sarcastic comments.
What does it matter if I've had it up for sale or not?? Genuine question.........
Ive come on asking for advice thats all.
It doesn't.
It's just an observation and a bit of a standing joke how often you swap bikes.
Carry on as you were.
You know deep down keep changing bikes doesn't solve the problem.
I reckon a megneg might really help here. Would increase the mid-stroke support noticeably. They're actually good pieces of kit.
I reckon a megneg might really help here. Would increase the mid-stroke support noticeably. They’re actually good pieces of kit.
I had considered it however after speaking with one of the techs at TFtuned this morning he said it wouldnt be a good idea as when its fitted you need to run more air pressure which would put me over the max shock pressure.
Renton, I can loan you a Shockwiz mate
Renton, I can loan you a Shockwiz mate
That's really generous. I'll ping you a pm.
Thanks.
Steve.
Fair enough you would be close to the max. Did they say a custom tune might help?
I found a shockwizz helpful as it showed how badly my pump gauge was reading, I had way less pressure in there than I thought.
Fat and used to be thin man here. Weigh 113kg nekkid.
Have found that getting air shocks to perform optimally at 100kg+ is so difficult to be almost impossible. My answer to this has been coil. I have two bikes with Ohlins TTX22 coil.
Interestingly, air forks have not given the same hassle.
Try putting a spacer in the negative chamber.
I’ve an e180rs and I find exactly the same as you. Need to run 330psi in the x2 to stop it blowing through. Faffing about with spacers doesn’t help either. There’s something fundamentally awry with the design.
Also, unless you run 20% sag it’ll kill pedals with strikes in days. It’s not like the geometry is wrong either, it’s within a gnats chuff of the figures on my alpine & that’s completely fine. It just gets 70 or 80% through travel, gives up support and down it goes, as if the leverage ratio at the end of travel goes up massively. I need to re-ShockWiz it now I’m 6 months into ownership and see what it suggests.
Also, unless you run 20% sag it’ll kill pedals with strikes in days. It’s not like the geometry is wrong either, it’s within a gnats chuff of the figures on my alpine & that’s completely fine. It just gets 70 or 80% through travel, gives up support and down it goes, as if the leverage ratio at the end of travel goes up massively. I need to re-ShockWiz it now I’m 6 months into ownership and see what it suggests.
This is exactly how my rear travel feels. Lots of pressure to get anywhere near correct sage, then blows most of its travel before ramping up massively at the end. Dont think Ive ever bottomed out the shock even at 30% sag??
“ Try putting a spacer in the negative chamber.”
This is a good idea! That’ll firm it up at the start of the stroke. Take out some volume spacers to soften the end of the stroke. And then up the air pressure to firm the middle of the stroke.
If that gets you roughly in the right place then a custom tune with more low speed compression should finish the job.
fwiw, I'm 96kg on a Commencal Meta Power, which has a similar shock arrangement (150mm travel, 210x55 rockshox super deluxe ultimate) and I run 245psi to get just under 30% sag. Shock doesn't seem to blow through its travel. Certainly not dropping off a curb. I have to run rebound 2 clicks off max though.
Maybe it came with the wrong shock tune?
Maybe it came with the wrong shock tune?
Going off what other people have said on the Whyte ebike stalkbook page, it's a common complaint (once you get through the fog of bad spelling, flag waiving, massive mudguards and questions like: "its got tu mANy geaz, kan I MAK it 8 spead!?!!")
“ Try putting a spacer in the negative chamber.”
This is a good idea! That’ll firm it up at the start of the stroke. Take out some volume spacers to soften the end of the stroke. And then up the air pressure to firm the middle of the stroke.
Is this an option? Ive seen nowhere on the net mention neg air volume spacers??
Yeah you can put spacers in the big negative chamber. That's kind of the point to be able to tune the negative spring as well as positive.
from J-tech a few years back, when I was having similar issues (you use the same 'band' spacers):
Do you know that you can put the spacers in the negative chamber also, to reduce the volume to that of a standard can? Chances are that the compression damping tune is too soft for your weight, so your best approach is to get that sorted first - it's the lack of damping that causes 'blow through' more than the air spring curve. In fact the Debonair spring curve gives a higher spring rate through the middle of the travel than the standard can, relative to the spring rate at the start and end of the travel.
Yeah you can put spacers in the big negative chamber. That’s kind of the point to be able to tune the negative spring as well as positive.
Do you have a link at all showing how its done?
from J-tech a few years back, when I was having similar issues (you use the same ‘band’ spacers):
Do you know that you can put the spacers in the negative chamber also, to reduce the volume to that of a standard can? Chances are that the compression damping tune is too soft for your weight, so your best approach is to get that sorted first – it’s the lack of damping that causes ‘blow through’ more than the air spring curve. In fact the Debonair spring curve gives a higher spring rate through the middle of the travel than the standard can, relative to the spring rate at the start and end of the travel.
Cheers mate I might give J tech a call.
Try this *edited
Ah ok, thats a megneg can which mine doesnt have and I cant see any other way of adding neg air spacers?
I did look into the meg neg but apparently it requires even more air in the shock to start with and as Im getting close to the max air pressure i discounted it.
I've used a MegNeg on a SuperDeluxe, it does indeed increase the air pressure needed by around 15-20%, so if you're near the top limit already I would avoid it.
Personally, I would send it off to TF-Tuned who will set it up to work however you want. I've never been disappointed with any work they've done on forks or shocks.
Personally, I would send it off to TF-Tuned who will set it up to work however you want. I’ve never been disappointed with any work they’ve done on forks or shocks.
Part of the reason I looked at selling the bike is due to a conversation I had with TFtuned.
Basically I could have it retuned but for my weight it would make a clunk noise and still not fully cure the symptoms I have. Something to do with the suspension kinematics of the bike.
One option was to wait a few months and buy one of the new 2022 Fox DPX or DPS air shocks and have that custom tuned by TFtuned but thats going to be circa £700.
I was looking to sell and buy an Orbea Wild FS with are a bit plusher tuned, however Weeksy has kindly offered a loan of his shockwiz so Im going to try that first I think to see if it helps.
I did try and remove the aircan to see about volume spacers but couldnt get it off yesterday so will try when I get a strap wrench tomorrow.
I was looking to sell and buy an Orbea Wild FS with are a bit plusher tuned
not sure about that - the whyte and the orbea both have fairly progressive linkages, Probably not much in it between the two in terms of that.
I've got a wild fs though, its nice. But then the whyte looks good too.
Part of the reason I looked at selling the bike is due to a conversation I had with TFtuned.
Basically I could have it retuned but for my weight it would make a clunk noise and still not fully cure the symptoms I have. Something to do with the suspension kinematics of the bike.
One option was to wait a few months and buy one of the new 2022 Fox DPX or DPS air shocks and have that custom tuned by TFtuned but thats going to be circa £700.
You should be able to pick up a used Fox DPX2 (it's much better than the DPS in my experience).
Looking at the leverage ratios for the E150, I really don’t see a problem with it for you. The Orbea Wild has a 65mm shock rather than a 55, which would help as a heavier rider but it has 43% progression vs the Whyte’s 31% so you’ll have even more trouble getting to full travel.
You’re only 115kg, so you and the bike are about 130kg sprung weight. That’s about 25% more than me but it’s not way out from what a large ebike is made for.
Regarding blowing through the travel going off a kerb, why is this a problem? You don’t want a bike that collapses when you pump but a bike that squishes down when you pump a turn is rather nice - it’s not like when a fork blows through the travel and makes the geometry all steep and nervous.
You mention 20% sag being too harsh and 30% too soft. I don’t understand why you’re swinging between such extreme ranges? Change the pressure 5-10psi at a time, equalise the negative chamber and then ride it.
On my Levo I’d been running 30% fork sag and 37% shock, on a Lyrik RC2 Charger 2 and a Deluxe RT (think that’s called Deluxe Select RT now). I’ve just had them serviced and am at about 25% sag with a Charger 2.1 damper (upgraded due to leak) and 35% sag with the shock stroke increased from 52.5 to 55mm and a volume spacers removed.
I’ve been taking a long way home to set things up these last two days and small changes make a big difference. The fork was diving way too much at 30% sag and LSC and HSC in the middle, but leaving about 50mm of unused travel. This morning I increased the pressure by about 10%, reducing the sag to 25% ish, added some clicks of LSC and fully opened the HSC. Result: No diving, firmer and more responsive when I pump or preload, only ~20mm travel left after riding the same trails (a bit faster).
I realise that with this shock you can’t change the compression without having it tuned but I think this shows how small changes can make a big difference.
Take out all the volume spacers, add some air, and go ride it! Don’t fall into the selling and buying trap again, it’s just a massive waste of money and time. Keep persevering, it’s a good bike.
One thing to bear in mind if the air shock won’t behave as you want - the Whyte has a very low BB. This means you can run less sag and it still feel great. It also has quite a lot of linkage progression. Both of these bode well for swapping to a coil spring.
Hi Chief.
Are you looking at the right E150.
Mine is the 29er version with 50mm shock travel.
The problem I have is that it has no mid stroke support hence the blowing through its travel but then ramps right up at the end.
I also don't feel comfortable standing up and pedalling as it's just wallowing a lot.
Since upgrading the fork to a charger 2.1 rc2 it's showing how poor the rear shock is.
I am going to try taking out any volume spacers tomorrow when my new strap wrench comes and go from there.
My mate who has the rs version of the bike with the same shock has no issues with it at all. He is 35kg lighter than me though.
The problem I have is that it has no mid stroke support hence the blowing through its travel but then ramps right up at the end.
That behaviour is very symptomatic of too many spacers, you may have no spacers, but it's deffo worth checking before doing anything else.
That behaviour is very symptomatic of too many spacers, you may have no spacers, but it’s deffo worth checking before doing anything else.
Do you mean volume spacers ?
I'm hoping to get the can opened tomorrow and see. Is it worth removing anything that is in there or just one at a time ?
You may be right, Whyte have done a very good job of confusingly naming their ebikes. I shouldn’t be surprised as their 27.5 hardtails are all called 9**!
Let us know how it feels with the volume spacers out and more pressure. Small increments when adjusting and testing!
Do you mean volume spacers ?
Yes, I'd remove the lot and start from there
Ok,
So I just wanted to give an update on how Im getting on since I last posted.
Weeksy very kindly lent me his shockwiz which I have had set up on my fork for the past week setting that up. On the first ride I did a 3 mile loop to start with of various terrain doing climbing, descending etc. When I first checked the wix it said all I had to change was add some LSC which I did then went out and done the same 3 mile loop again to compare. The fork felt loads better and I had less hand soreness. However.. When I checked the wiz again it wanted more air pressure, more volume spacers etc etc. Cut a long story short Ive been tinkering all week and got the fork in a very good place.
Rear shock wise Ive not done much... There was one spacer in it that I removed and Ive also dropped pressure to just over 30% sag. To be fair it feels a little better but not great and Ive noticed that there is more and more oil appearing on the shock stanchion so I think its dying.
Im in a bit of a predicament now with the bike: I have been offered good money for the bike but that would leave me bikeless as there is no stock anywhere of anything that Im looking at and no forecast of when they are due in.
The other option is to fit a different rear shock, Ive had a good conversation with J tech and they have suggested a Cane Creek DB air CS tuned for my weight. Yes the initial cost is high but if it means I keep the bike then I feel it would be money wells pent.
Apart from the rear shock the bike feels and ride phenomenal, Im hitting Pr's on Strava the more Im riding it.
Decisions...........
The Cane Creek DB air was also on my list recently, but i've stuck with what i have on there and it's working fine at the moment.
I guess the question is, what would you replace it with and why ? Something with a better rear shock curve ?
I guess the question is, what would you replace it with and why ? Something with a better rear shock curve ?
I was looking to replace it with something with more rear travel. The E150 is meant to have 140mm rear travel but tests have measured it at more like 134mm
The bikes Im looking at are the Orbea Wild fs (160mm F/R) YT Decoy 29er, Focus Sam or Jam, Merida e160.
Orbea Wild fs (160mm F/R)
MAte on here Couchy had a Wild FS with some new RS forks, i think they're 35s, they're were absolutely AWFUL ! We couldn't get them to work no matter what, either too soft or too harsh, had no compression to speak of and pogo'd like crazy, i rode it at FoD and wanted to throw it in a hedge.
MAte on here Couchy had a Wild FS with some new RS forks, i think they’re 35s, they’re were absolutely AWFUL ! We couldn’t get them to work no matter what, either too soft or too harsh, had no compression to speak of and pogo’d like crazy, i rode it at FoD and wanted to throw it in a hedge.
The one Im looking at has fox 38 forks and fox dps or dpx shock
MAte on here Couchy had a Wild FS with some new RS forks, i think they’re 35s, they’re were absolutely AWFUL ! We couldn’t get them to work no matter what, either too soft or too harsh, had no compression to speak of and pogo’d like crazy, i rode it at FoD and wanted to throw it in a hedge.
yeah, the RS 35's are pretty poor, they come as standard on the lowest spec wild fs, its worth going up a model or two in the range just to get a better fork. I think the 35's are rockshox entry level fork. They were obviously specced by orbea to hit a low price point.
My wild fs has a fox 36 factory fork , which is decent as you'd expect.
Could be you just disturbed some of the lubricating oil when you had it apart, wipe it off and see how it goes. Also check you haven’t tucked the wiper seal when putting it back on.
Not being rude (chunky myself) but at your weight you will be pushing the limits of the shock on any bike you swap to. Bikes come tuned for a 70-80 kg rider. Once over 95kg they all really need a reshim. I’m usually on the cusp of maxing out the adjustments on any bike, but make it work until first service when I get them done.
Had a DB air on my bike last time I went to a Whistler and it was amazing. Loads of adjustment that you can actually feel. E150 is an amazing bike, would be great with one of those on it.
Had a DB air on my bike last time I went to a Whistler and it was amazing. Loads of adjustment that you can actually feel. E150 is an amazing bike, would be great with one of those on it.
Fingers crossed it will be !!
@Renton, I've had my e-150 rs 2021 for 2 weeks and have ridden it all over the tweed valley. There is no wallowing or difficulty with the rear shock and the bike rides incredibly well. I'm 105kg inc gear so not far from you. It sounds like a fundamental problem with the shock. If anything the bike doesn't seem as sensitive to suspension setup as my megatower. I'm riding the Whyte with 35% sag.
@Renton, I’ve had my e-150 rs 2021 for 2 weeks and have ridden it all over the tweed valley. There is no wallowing or difficulty with the rear shock and the bike rides incredibly well. I’m 105kg inc gear so not far from you. It sounds like a fundamental problem with the shock. If anything the bike doesn’t seem as sensitive to suspension setup as my megatower. I’m riding the Whyte with 35% sag.
Good to know. It will be interesting to see how it performs with the CCDB on it. Im 120kgs with gear btw
How are you finding the bike overall. I think its great to be honest.
It's awesome! Slightly unwieldy in tight turns but so planted it makes up for it everywhere else. Only criticism is the slightly slack seat tube that makes very steep climbs more challenging. But both ups and downs are grin-inducing 😁
Slightly unwieldy in tight turns but so planted it makes up for it everywhere else
This x 1000%
Its a bit of a handful on tight and twisty trails but elsewhere its so stable and planted.
My mate has the RS model and he absolutely flies on it but then he is about 35 kgs lighter than me !!
Sadly those 35kgs woukd also help me 🙄😂
“that would leave me bikeless as there is no stock anywhere of anything that Im looking at and no forecast of when they are due in.
The other option is to fit a different rear shock, Ive had a good conversation with J tech and they have suggested a Cane Creek DB air CS tuned for my weight.”
If you have no bike to ride then you’re likely to lose any fitness you’ve been gaining since riding the Whyte regularly.
The big DB air is a great shock - only complaint tends to be that it’s inherently more damped feeling than single tube shocks - but that’s ideal for a heavier rider. And with the four damping knobs you can adjust it to suit you properly. It also runs lower pressure than a lot of air shocks.
134mm of rear travel is plenty on a 29” bike, unless you’re planning to race enduro or ride extremely gnarly trails very fast.