[Closed] Disc Brake injuries at Paris Roubaix

Is anyone here a pro cyclist and actually able to comment with a semblance of credibility rather than just making things up?

Fran Ventosa on disk brakes, since someone asked.

Open letter: Fran Ventoso.

On disc brakes.

I’ve spent thirteen years in the pro cycling peloton and another thirteen moving up the ladder in youth categories. That makes it 26 years on my bike, training every day, enjoying what I like most, my passion. Since I was six, I’ve enjoyed racing, and I continue to do so. I’m so happy to have turned my vocation into a dream job.

Just like in any other sport, cycling has evolved in many technical aspects. However, it has not done so in others in a way we’d all have liked.

Through all these years, I’ve witnessed many improvements on different parts of the bike and cycling apparel. We started off with steel, then aluminum, and later on, carbon. That last one came here to stay, since it was as rigid as we needed while also offering lightness. We’ve also stopped using toeclips for clipless pedals, much more comfortable, effective and secure. Days are long gone when we used hairnet helmets: modern ones are now lighter, beautiful to the eye and offer absolute security guarantees when you use them.

I’ve also seen very important improvements on gearing. My first bike had one chainring and three sprockets; nowadays, we use two chainrings, even three, and 11 sprockets… and I’m certain it won’t end there. Technology evolution has been a sort of trial and error: getting to this point hasn’t been easy. I remember how easily chains were broken when we first used ten sprockets: links that broke, because of materials still not as resistant as it was required… it still happens today. We could also talk about the revolution that has brought the electronic shifting. When it was first shown and used, we all were surprised and made early judgments: it’s not necessary, it might not work well, carrying batteries seems wrong, having to connect your bike to AC is bonkers… And now, we can’t imagine our bikes without it.

My point is: two years ago, we started seeing disc brakes put on cyclocross bikes, and the rumour was that there could be a chance that they be tested in road cycling events.

Beforehand, I want to make this clear: I’m so in favor as anyone else that cyclocross professionals or participants in sportives enjoy the advantages of disc brakes during their rides.

But then, there’s pro road cycling events. Was there really anyone who thought things like Sunday’s wouldn’t happen? Really nobody thought they were dangerous? Nobody realized they can cut, they can become giant knives?

At Paris-Roubaix, only two teams used them. With eight riders each, that makes it sixteen, carrying a total 32 disc brakes into the peloton. Let me take you to 130km into the race: into a cobbled section, a pile-up splits the field, with riders falling everywhere. I’ve got to break but I can’t avoid crashing against the rider in front of me, who was also trying not to hit the ones ahead. I didn’t actually fall down: it was only my leg touching the back of his bike. I keep riding. But shortly afterwards, I have a glance at that leg: it doesn’t hurt, there’s not a lot of blood covering it, but I can clearly see part of the periosteum, the membrane or surface that covers my tibia. I get off my bike, throw myself against the right-hand side of the road over the grass, cover my face with my hands in shock and disbelief, start to feel sick… I could only wait for my team car and the ambulance, while a lot of things come through my mind.

Just a stroke of bad luck? I don’t thing so: few kilometers later, one of the thoughts I had sitting in the gutter becomes real.

15km after my incident, Nikolas Maes, a rider from Etixx-Quick Step, comes into the very same ambulance I’m sitting in. There’s a deep wound in his knee, produced by another disc, one of those 32. One question comes inevitably and immediately to one’s mind: what will happen when 396 discs get into a race where 198 riders ferociously battle for position?

Disc brakes should have NEVER arrived into the peloton, not at least as we know them right now. I haven’t met any rider who has run out of braking power with traditional brakes; I haven’t known anyone who didn’t see his wheels skidding when you brake with all power you’ve got, no matter traditional or disc brakes. Then: why using them?

Conversely, there are lots of problems to change wheels after a puncture; added trouble for neutral service, which has to carry three or four different sets of wheels to help you out in case your team car is not around… and the most worrying thing, as I stated before, is that disc brakes in its actual concept are giant knives, ‘machetes’ when crashing against or crashed by them at a certain speed. And in some points, we reach 80, 90, 100 kilometres per hour.

I’ve been lucky: I didn’t get my leg chopped off, it’s just some muscle and skin. But can you imagine that disk cutting a jugular or a femoral vein? I would prefer not to.

All of this happens because the international riders’ association –the CPA–, national riders’ associations, international and national feds, teams and, above all of them, OURSELVES, PROFESSIONAL RIDERS, are not doing anything. We always think that it’s not a problem if it doesn’t happen to ourselves. We always wait for horrible things to happen in order to take measures. Sooner or later, it could happen to anybody: it’s a matter of probability, we’ve all got the same. Pro riders should take a look beyond our own belly. Others tell us what we should do, but we just can’t forget WE’VE GOT THE POWER TO CHOOSE, AND WE SHOULD MAKE A CHOICE.

Disks produce cuts. This time it was me; tomorrow, it can be more serious and happen to others.

CPA has called on UCI to suspend disc brake testing
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/professional-cyclists-association-calls-uci-suspend-disc-brake-testing-220921

Hmmm, I kind of seethe point now Fran Vertosa has explained it. I hadn't really considered the injuries that might occur whilst the bikes remain upright. You can well see how someone mightride into a rear disc, which might still be spinning around. These things can get pretty sharp (I remember having a laugh at my brother as he described reading the warning about touching the edge of a disc due to sharpness, but doing it anyway...).

I'm not convinced that they couldn't be manufactured in such a way as to avoid sharp edges though.

UCI suspends use:

[url= http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/uci-suspends-use-disc-brakes-professional-racing-220931#KfjOHdBjUQK8J1uG.99 ]http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/uci-suspends-use-disc-brakes-professional-racing-220931[/url]

The pro thing is irrelevant to me. The simple question is: do you want good brakes or so-so brakes? Once you've answered that question the rest is easy.

I hadn't really considered the injuries that might occur whilst the bikes remain upright

Me neither. The spinning element is a potentially serious one. As it turns a relatively harmless object into what is essentially a circular saw.

Still not convinced it's a major risk. But maybe it warrants further investigation. Two incidents in one race does seem a lot considering the limited number of bikes using them, but it's entirely possible to have two freak accidents in one day. I don't think you can write them off just like that. And certainly protective covers might be the way forward, though I'm not sure rattly plastic covers are going to be embraced with open arms.

[quote=igm ]Interesting thought. On a flat road at a constant speed - agreed. But as soon as you through in acceleration and deceleration then moving weight from the rim to the hub may help (see the comments on different rim designs) - and that would certainly interest the sprinters, and possibly the climbers and GC guys. But (again) less rim weight means less stability which might affect descents detrimentally . But the bike would turn more easily that might improve hairpin descents.
But it would all be marginal.

Except bikes don't actually accelerate and decelerate all that much, even when doing stuff which you think involves a lot of that, most of your energy still goes on overcoming aero drag. That goes even more for sprinters - their acceleration in the sprint is pretty small, but they're doing a lot of work against aero drag - they're the last people who would get any benefit based on that reasoning. As for the climbers/GC guys, isn't the absolute weight of a disc system higher even allowing for the possibility of lighter rims?

[quote=reggiegasket ]The pro thing is irrelevant to me.

It's not irrelevant to the pros, which is what I thought this discussion was about. I'm sure for lots of people on here there are benefits and they don't ride in big packs where the issues are. I note that as Ventoso points out, the pros don't consider rim brakes to be so-so.

pros don't consider rim brakes to be so-so

I don't think that's an absolute though; they're just not convinvced of the +/- balance. I bet if you held a TdF time trial down one of the HC hills (and wouldn't THAT be fantastic?!) they'd all be using them

They may have safety concerns - and those may be valid, IDK - but I don't think you can plausibly deny that discs are better at consistent, controllable and powerful braking

weight is a non-issue in the peleton. They're weighting up the bikes to reach the limit, not trying to shave grams off.

I like my disks but I'm not a pro cyclist riding (and crashing) in a large peloton on a daily basis. I'm prepared to consider that they may well have a valid point.

You don't have to be a pro cyclist for this to be an issue, anyone riding in a group is open to the risk and as the article also points out and has been said in countless previous disc bike threads, rims brakes are more than good enough on bikes intended for sporting use.

If your cycling to work, in the rain, in Halifax, discs make a lot of sense, no question about it.

Which was my point all along. When the whole bunch goes down you never really know how you will fall or onto what. Chainrings can cut, of course, but there is usually a leg clipped in to provide some protection. Hands out over the bars and into a rear disk? No thanks

Cross races don't really have the same bunch riding or speeds.

Speaking of sharp spinning objects causing injuries in the peloton, anyone remember the controversy over Spinergy wheels after Bartoli sliced his knee open in a crash?

more than good enough on bikes intended for sporting use.

The same could have been said about almost any technological advances. I mean, who thought QR wheels were a good idea? Not as safe as a bolted through. Aero TT bikes? Lethal. Chain rings? Scary stuff. Only need one, to drive your flip flop fixed hub. After all, one gear is more than good enough on bikes intended for sporting use.

Luddites be ludditing.

It's called progress. It happens. Sadly, the UCI seem keener on pissing about over discs than dealing with doping and dangerous vehicles at races. Suppose it's something to do with tradition. Keeping all those neo-roadies happy.

weight is a non-issue in the peleton. They're weighting up the bikes to reach the limit, not trying to shave grams off.

If this is the case then the lack of shrouds make even less sense. It's a very simple and effective tool, why not use it?

On road.cc they reckon that Maes (the Etixx rider Ventoso refers to) crashed nowhere near a Lampre or Direct Energie rider so couldn't have been hurt by a disc.

Aracer - I don't think I disagree. But of course a less aero disk brake might be compensated for by a more aero rim. And disk brakes might be constructed or fitted in a more aero manner in future (remember the calliper is basically MTB technology at the moment and we didn't need aero really). And I would have thought that although the majority of a sprint is aero, the kicks are short sharp accelerations that are all about inertia.

But if you ever meet me you'll be able to spot very quickly that I'm not a pro-roadie of any type - in fact the closest I'd get to being a pro-roadie is if someone paid me to carry their Marshall amps to the van.

But of course a less aero disk brake might be compensated for by a more aero rim.

And the ability to carry more speed for longer.

in fact the closest I'd get to being a pro-roadie is if someone paid me to carry their Marshall amps to the van.

[img] ~c200[/img]

IME rim brakes and carbon wheels are a bigger hazard - e.g. having some distinctly twitchy moments road racing in the pouring rain on a road circuit that included a steep downhill and tight bend - each lap I wasn't sure I was going to make it! I built a road bike with discs 12 years ago and used to train with some elite riders - noticeable how much later I could brake into corners with guys who knew how to ride.

reggiegasket » The pro thing is irrelevant to me.
It's not irrelevant to the pros, which is what I thought this discussion was about. I'm sure for lots of people on here there are benefits and they don't ride in big packs where the issues are. I note that as Ventoso points out, the pros don't consider rim brakes to be so-so.

I think this is the key. For whatever reason (expensive coatings, expert mechanics choosing appropriate brake pads and setting up/maintaining the brakes daily etc.) the pros don't seem to perceive any problems with their current brakes. Obviously when they wear out a £1000 wheelset they don't have to pay for a new pair, which might help.

As I've said above, I don't think this invalidates the existence of disc braked road bikes, but for the pro peleton it seems it's a solution to a number of problems which don't exist.

how does a disc cause a horseshoe shaped injury?

I think the pros may have to sway to the choices of the masses. If disk brakes continue to grow in popularity for casual riders, the manufacturers will focus on development and sales of them, and want to promote them more. They'll do this by insisting their sponsored riders use them in competition, so the pros may be forced down this route anyway.

Going back a page or 2. The reason I as a rim braked roadie drag my brakes and go slow down descents is to allow the fat knackers with disks to gain a bit of time and give my something to reel in on the flat.

I'd get a disk braked bike if I was buying a new one though! 😉

I don't know if, in the last 3 pages, this was definitively known, but as of this morning, [url= http://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/uci-suspends-usage-of-disc-brakes-after-ventosos-roubaix-injury/ ]the UCI has suspended use of disc brakes[/url] in light of Paris-Roubaix.

how does a disc cause a horseshoe shaped injury?

Give us yer leg and we'll try to find out...

Apologies in advance to the squeamish / anyone having breakfast but there almost looks like regularly spaced teeth marks round the periphery of the wound at the bottom, no?

If you don't want to see it - scroll quickly now 😉

[img] ?oh=ebc32f5f57eadc965b3d19f6ae295d2a&oe=57AF5EBE[/img]

If you made it past the picture, above, then you may also be interested to read [url= http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/04/news/injured-ventoso-blasts-use-of-road-discs_402394#5UJwRE89eud8K2DH.99 ]Ventoso's own words about discs[/url] in the pro peleton.

For whatever reason ... the pros don't seem to perceive any problems with their current brakes

Alpine descents aside, closed roads mean not much braking required?

I've read a few other posts online which put Ventoso's claim that Nikolas Maes was also the victim of a disc injury into severe doubt, as there were no teams using discs involved in the crash that injured him, nor anywhere near it...

Are we against aero spokes too? 40 sharp 30cm long blades PER BIKE spinning at 200rpm, that's TEN THOUSAND per race 😯

Classic thread for trolls, the righteous and hand wringers. I can't understand why folk get so angry about this. I race, so have bikes with caliper brakes and also have a lovely Colonago with disc's that I tool around on when not racing, and obviously have a bang on trend grrrravel bike. Luckily, I look 'pro' on all my bikes.

lovely Colonago

For whatever reason ... the pros don't seem to perceive any problems with their current brakes

Most local roadies I know (myself included) are of the same opinion.

I guess if I lived somewhere with long tricky descents, or had to commute in heavy traffic in all weathers, then maybe I'd feel differently.

I've read a few other posts online which put Ventoso's claim that Nikolas Maes was also the victim of a disc injury into severe doubt,

I also have doubts (not saying it didn't happen, just that there are unanswered questions in my scientifically sceptical mind) about whether a disc caused the Ventoso injury.

He believes it was caused by a disc rotor but in his report of the events he doesn't say who he ran into. Was it a disc brake rider - if it was then surely you'd say so.

Secondly in his own words, he didn't fall, he just touched the back of another riders bike. With his left leg, on the left hand side of that rider's bike. How?

If you[s]r cycling to[/s] work[s], in the rain,[/s] in Halifax, [s]discs [/s] suicide make a lot of sense, no question about it.

FTFY

but there almost looks like regularly spaced teeth marks round the periphery of the wound at the bottom, no?

Can't disagree with that!

I for one am glad the UCI have got off their backsides and binned them.

Now all we need is for them to be as decisive in more pressing issues sitting on those lovely oak desks in oak panelled drawing board offices eh...

typical UCI, bugger all resolve no interest in progress just cave in to the luddite whingers...

TBH the issue of deadly blades of doom removing princesses limbs has already been solved by bicycle polo:

[img] [/img]

If the manufacturers can persuade the boys club to try another trial after this debacle I would expect to see some aero-sexy-carbon version of that, plus it's another thing to flog the spotivists...

cookeaa - or anyone else who shares your view - can you please answer a few questions -

(1) What problem in road racing do disc brakes solve?
(2) How do disc brakes make road racing better for the participants or the spectators?
(3) How do you feel about UCI's minimum weight limits?
(4) How do you feel about UCI's rules on geometry and wheel sizes?
(5) If the UCI were truly forward thinking they would allow electric motors (after all the winner would still be the bloke who puts out the most power above what the motor ddoes). Discuss.
(6) Do you think that the UCI was foolish to rush them in without more extensive testing and consultation?

[i]I would expect to see some aero-sexy-carbon version of that[/i]

Like the one on [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/disc-brake-injuries-at-paris-roubaix/page/2#post-7635344 ]page 2[/url]?

We dont need all rhose questions,

Do you regularly ride in groups or race?

Yes = Dont want discs.
No = Do want discs.

I've been less convinced about the whole discs are best things since going to a big cyclo cross race

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-going-to-the-cx-world-cup-in-milton-keynes/page/2

Almost no one used discs. I loved these quotes from the Trek riders

Sven and Katie gave their reasons for their choice to use canti's over discs. They both said modulation and being able to 'feel' the braking. They said at the moment discs don't give the feedback that canti's do and you' can skid to before you know it with discs. She did say though that for dry races they were fine. They also both liked the lightness of cantis over the heavier disc set ups.

Do you regularly ride in groups or race?

Yes = Dont want discs.
No = Do want discs.

Yes = don't want to get injured or killed by a support vehicle

But nobody's doing anything about that, almost like a single injury allegedly from a contentious source is taking the heat off them.

The team bike and component sponsors will drive this more than the teams themselves - sponsor wants to drive sales and disc brakes are enforced obsolescence in the market.
Pro riders will simply ride what they're paid to ride as long as they're not disadvantaged e.g. unreliable
The benefit for racing is more predictable braking in the rain - carbon rims, rim brakes and rain are not a great combo.
Riders have been having lumps carved out of them due to crashes for years - road furniture probably causes more injuries but it hasn't stopped them - it's an accepted occupational hazard

Obviously have to respect the views of a pro rider ^ however some of the logic still escapes me. FWIW, my last Olympic Triathlon ended 200m into the bike leg. A motorcycle clashed with the bike in front of me, we all ended up in a collision and I had a chunk of skin flapping around my ankle and blood staining the good roads of Windsor! To my disappointment at the time, the marshals grabbed my bike and stopped me continuing. Off to Slough hospital in an ambulance for some impressive sticking to reattach the flapping skin.

No disc brakes but one bloody motorcycle marshall in the way.

Ok, it's an anecdote but bikes have lots of sharp bits that win in a battle with soft flesh. Indeed I have a cut in my shin now caused by my pedal on an early evening ride today.