[Closed] Disc Brake injuries at Paris Roubaix

It wouldn't surprise me if this wasn't at least partly a conspiracy by the riders - they don't want disc brakes so why not create a whole smokescreen around the issue, kick up a stink.

Says a lot that Ventoso doesn't even know what he hit, in fact he continued riding for a while before realising that he was hurt and he seems to have jumped to the conclusion that it MUST have been a disc brake (cos obviously there is nothing else remotely sharp, pointy and sticky-outy on bikes, barriers, road furniture, other riders or the ground...)

The injury doesn't look like a rotor cut it and it would be bloody difficult for a rotor to do that anyway, it's pretty well shielded by the frame/forks. Even his manager doesn't think it was a disc.

What gets me is the controlled way this has all been introduced, the UCI taking it's time, weighing up all the issues, gradually filtering it in and then suddenly a knee-jerk ban based on seemingly one or two rider's uncorroborated reports. Meanwhile motorbikes continue to pile into riders, riders will continue to crash in pretty much every race and nothing will be done.

then suddenly a knee-jerk ban based on seemingly one or two rider's uncorroborated reports. Meanwhile motorbikes continue to pile into riders, riders will continue to crash in pretty much every race and nothing will be done.

The two things could be connected though, heightened awareness of being seen to act on rider safety in light of the recent tragedy.

It's almost as if the uci are desperate for a bit of good publicity. Do what a couple of riders want, and everyone will forget about the other stuff for a while.

But...but..but..what about motorbikes, what about drugs, what about marshalls....what about xxxx..just a load of whataboutery!!

This thread is about discs and they are just not (prod you in the forehead) needed.

But...but..but..what about motorbikes, what about drugs, what about marshalls....what about xxxx..just a load of whataboutery!!

This thread is about discs and they are just not (prod you in the forehead) needed.

Cycling is a technology driven sport, the providers of the various technologies generally seem able to work within the rules as set, it's a reciprocal relationship SBC/Trek/Giant/Merida/shimano/SRAM/Campag/etc all get to showcase their wares, while the UCI now get to "Approve" equipment for competition use (that doesn't happen for free by the way)...

For the most part it works TBF everyone gets something from the deal. Except with discs, the manufacturers have seen the technology develop in various other branches of cycling for the last 25 years or so, to where it is now; a mature, well understood and, for consumers, pretty familiar concept...
But they can't put it in their biggest [i]shop window [/i]still. I don't generally side with "the industry" but it just feels like resistance mostly for the sake of it... Its not like they're asking for compulsion, just to broaden the rules to allow for it...

Someone mentioned the initial resistance to helmet compulsion when it came to pro-cyclist, the antis claimed to know and accept the risks of racing back then, but it went ahead anyway, more of a gladiatorial mindset than today where they are able to cry "Health and Safety" and get something they weren't too keen on to start with banned without any real analysis...

If there's truly no advantage to be had then that'd will be demonstrated through competition. So why the fervent desire to keep a ban disc brake use?
Surely if there's no benefit riders and teams will naturally come back round to rim calipers and a rule change to allow discs, with guarding if you prefer, will still largely have no effect on the design of the bikes...

Obviously have to respect the views of a pro rider

Do you? I mean really do you [i]have to[/i]?
While I might respect the individual, their ability, skill, commitment, etc they are still fallible humans and their views, like anyone else's, can be plain wrong based on false assumptions or personal bias... Leccy shifting, 11 cogs at the back, carbonfibre everything all refined, increasingly complex technologies, not a peep about those, but discs have to be banned completely?

While I might respect the individual, their ability, skill, commitment, etc they are still fallible humans and their views, like anyone else's, can be plain wrong based on false assumptions or personal bias... Leccy shifting, 11 cogs at the back, carbonfibre everything all refined, increasingly complex technologies, not a peep about those, but discs have to be banned completely?

But they didn't object to those did they. Surely as its them riding together they should get to decide

I think a ban on road discs in pro racing would be a good thing because it will help force the split between bikes for competition and bike for leisure. part of the whole gravel bike thing is slow realisation that riding a copy of a road race bike might not always be the best if you are not racing yourself

Are any pro riders actually coming out in favour of discs? Seems odd to me that if the manufacturers are so keen to have them in the peloton, they're not getting their riders to make the right noises.

Anyway, aside from the apparent dangers they just seem impractical to me in a road racing context. I crashed and bent a wheel on the way to work this week. Walked to my LBS and swapped it, like for like, with one from a demo bike and continued on my way. Disc rubbed all the way to work where I reset the caliper.
That was only 10km, wouldn't it be a PITA for the last half of a Spring Classic?

Disc rubbed all the way to work where I reset the caliper.
That was only 10km, wouldn't it be a PITA for the last half of a Spring Classic?

Very easy to standardise the position of the caliper / rotor when it's being done by pro mechanics. Each team and neutral service would just need a centralising jig for the wheels, shim the rotors if hubs vary slightly, everythings's transferrable.

I've done it for 3 sets of wheels so i can use across bikes, it's just a process to scale this up.

I seem to see a few riders coming off on the outside of bends in these mountain races. Who was it that rode into someone's driveway a few years back?

That kind of crash is caused by not enough braking power, ime, so discs could help there. BUT as we know from motor racing, this kind of improvement can result in higher speeds generally, which can result in more serious crashes when they do happen.

Thomas Voeckler about a minute in

but if your going too fast it doesn't matter how good your brakes are ! 🙂

Running off the outside of a bend is caused by going too fast, not having enough traction or fixating on some "feature" rather than where you are meant to be going.

The only one that is brake related is the speed side of things, and the few times i've done it i've never actually run out of brakes. i.e. i could have easily doubled the friction between pad and rim. I'd have then skidded into the nearest bit of furniture. Even if i hadn't hadn't locked the wheels, it'd have exceeded the amount of traction available.

It's essentially a judgement fail, rather than a component fail.

That kind of crash is caused by not enough braking power, ime, so discs could help there.

It's caused by misjudging the corner. You could argue that if you had more stopping power that could get you out of trouble, but you're racing and you'll just have used that power to brake later and deeper. If you've badly misjudged the corner you're still likely to crash.

Edit... what ghostly said!

molgrips - Member
I seem to see a few riders coming off on the outside of bends in these mountain races. Who was it that rode into someone's driveway a few years back?

That kind of crash is caused by not enough braking power, ime, so discs could help there.

With any good set of rim brakes on a road bike, braking power is limited by tyre traction, not the brakes.
I have never felt the need for disks on my road bikes, and Ventoso makes the same point in his open letter.
The simple point is: disks aren't a safety improvement in pro road racing. In fact the opposite.
It's just about selling to consumers - the UCI only allowed disk brake use in the first place because it was repeatedly requested by the main manufacturer lobbying group (World Federation of Sporting Goods Industry, WFSGI).

the UCI only allowed disk brake use in the first place because it was repeatedly requested by the main manufacturer lobbying group

It's the "what wins on a Sunday sells on a Monday" attitude. Use to be the same for cars and motorbikes.

And it may well be true for some segments of the bike market but I think most have moved past this. Best selling models now in most LBS seem to be those labelled endurance/comfort/sportive (e.g. Defy, Roubaix, Synapse). Also seems pretty clear people buying those bikes want discs. Maybe discs will be what finally forces the bike industry to move on (which may ironically not be a good thing for bike racing!)

Would seeing disc brakes in the pro peloton really influence anyones decision on whether they wanted discs on their next bike? It's a bit like watching F1 and deciding I really need a giant spoiler on the back of my next car.

It's the "what wins on a Sunday sells on a Monday" attitude

Be interesting to see if Hayman winning P-R on Scott's aero bike is exploited or has any effect on sales.

Front page of the [url= https://www.scott-sports.com/global/en/ ]Scott website[/url]. Though one of the features titled "Cobble eating machine" is about the Solace, despite P-R being won on a Foil, interesting dilemma for Scott marketing department 😆

looks like they're covering their bases with "#aerocomfortable" on the celebration pic, but then an other pic in the rotating banner of an IAM rider on what I assume is a Solace in front of Hayman....

Front page of the Scott website. Though one of the features titled "Cobble eating machine" is about the Solace, despite P-R being won on a Foil, interesting dilemma for Scott marketing department

I don't think buyers are as easily led as some people are suggesting.

We understand why and how a race like that can be won on an aero bike, but many of us also happily admit that comfort is a higher priority for us than for the pros.

I didn't buy a Defy 'cos of who races on it, I genuinely have no idea. It just strikes the right balance for my needs.

Would seeing disc brakes in the pro peloton really influence anyones decision on whether they wanted discs on their next bike?

Massively. Whereas currently many people are continuing to choose rim brakes on the basis that the pro peloton doesn't need anything better, if the pro peloton made a switch en masse to disc brakes, so would many others.

I don't think buyers are as easily led as some people are suggesting.

Indeed.

Interesting to click through to the page on the Solace ([url= https://www.scott-sports.com/global/en/page/solace-disc ]here[/url]). Full of images of pro's racing the bike on bumpy stuff.

Whereas currently many people are continuing to choose rim brakes on the basis that the pro peloton doesn't need anything better,

I'd have thought riders would be capable of making up their own minds on whether they felt their braking was lacking something that could be addressed by discs 😕

I don't think buyers are as easily led as some people are suggesting.

the point being whether the industry marketing men are the "some people".

I DID buy my road because of who raced it. Kind of. It was seeing an FDJ-liveried Lapierre (in Compiegne for the start of P-R in 2011, funnily enough so coming vaguely back on track) that re-ignited my interest in owning a road bike after ~15 years of only riding MTBs. So I bought a Lapierre. Okay, so CRC selling old stock at 45% off helped... 😉

Would seeing disc brakes in the pro peloton really influence anyones decision

I think it would, if only to make them more mainstream and become the norm, rather than a slavish "wanna look like a pro" approach. At the minute people are used to seeing road bikes with caliper brakes, and on something as svelte and minimalist as a road bike a disc brake has a big impact on the bike's aesthetics. As I said early in the thread, people are naturally resistant to change and at the minute disc-equipped road bikes are the abnormal minority.

But if the pro peloton are forced to ride disc braked bikes then I imagine that they will be what manufacturers concentrate on producing and then everybody will end up disced , like it or not .

I'd have thought riders would be capable of making up their own minds on whether they felt their braking was lacking something that could be addressed by discs

You could say the same about so many other things both within and without the cycling world. If it was true then 'marketing' would cease to exist; the fact it does indicates that the market is very lead by what we are told we need, and what better illustration of that is what the pros are using.

I don't need 11 gears but I want it because that's 'state of the art'

How did his [u]LEFT[/u] knee get mangled by a disc rotor?

Because it happened in crash.

How did his LEFT knee get mangled by a disc rotor?

Explain to us how that couldn't happen then.

He said he just touched the other bike and kept riding, I can't see how you can get your knee on the disc that way and at that angle. The cut suggests his knee was coming from a direction perpendicular to the wheel.

I didn’t actually fall down: it was only my leg touching the back of his bike. I keep riding.

With any good set of rim brakes on a road bike, braking power is limited by tyre traction, not the brakes.

Actually, on a dry road, it's limited by the position of your centre of gravity relative to the front wheel contact patch.

Only in a straight line, with clean tarmac and good tyres.

Maybe his shin was abraded by the tyre?

Only in a straight line, with clean tarmac and good tyres.

dunno gm, you ride a hell of a lot more than me, but my braking's been limited by pivoting over the front wheel on corners (not sharp corner, but well off the vertical), dirt, bracken, road, Schwalbe marathons, Conti mountain kings, V brakes and discs. This week.

Front wheel loosing grip has been off the brakes on roots, UK slop and grime, and loose corners.

I have contacted all the Pro teams who are running disc brakes to offer my services, i will, at my own expense collect all the bikes that now have this illegal technology and...erm...dispose of them.
i will also open this offer up to anyone who privately owns one of these death traps, just email me the Make, Model and spec, and i will arrange collection, free of charge of course.

otsdr - Member
He said he just touched the other bike and kept riding, I can't see how you can get your knee on the disc that way and at that angle. The cut suggests his knee was coming from a direction perpendicular to the wheel.

I didn’t actually fall down: it was only my leg touching the back of his bike. I keep riding.

He also wrote: "I’ve got to break [brake] but I can’t avoid crashing against the rider in front of me"

His story is full of query, inconsistency and conjecture. Not saying it didn't happen, just saying there's not proof enough there to say to me that it did.

Further - as well as present the facts as he saw them, he's acted as judge and jury (and pushed the UCI into being the executioner) without querying his version of events; worse than that he cited another example of a similar injury as being 'obviously' caused by another disc brake which in turn I think we're all reasonably clear in accepting wasn't which degrades his opinion further.

Put it all together - you can still argue about whether discs are a hazard to the peloton, whether that risk is a risk that is small enough to accept, whether the advantages of discs are enough to outweigh those risks, just as we are. That's all still a debate that will rage. But in the specific question of 'look what a disc rotor did to my knee!' I don't see his evidence as sufficient to convict.

I think it's pretty clear that most (not all, I know) recreational riders, when considering a new bike purchase, want discs. This suggests that what the pros ride isn't perhaps as important as some people advocate (as, der... the pros don't ride discs)

This puts bike manufacturers in an interesting position I think, as the market (us) is choosing bikes that the pros don't use (or even want to, it appears).

With any good set of rim brakes on a road bike, braking power is limited by tyre traction, not the brakes.

I do wish people would stop spouting this crap. It's nothing to do with absolute power, it's to do with how that power is applied and the modulation and control that you can have.

I have a rim braked road bike (Dura Ace calipers on alu rims) and a disc braked CX bike. Put the same slick tyres on them, wind it up to speed and the CX bike will stop far more quickly than the road bike with no lock up.

I've never unintentionally locked a wheel up on either although it's easy enough to do on both bikes if you try.

You can lock up the wheels on a car with drum brakes but no-one says discs are pointless. You always want more braking power than you can actually use (subject of course to that power being contrrollable).

We've been saying that for ages crazy-legs but they just aren't listening.

Yes, it's also been shown in video on youtube too.

You can lock up the wheels on a car with drum brakes but no-one says discs are pointless.

It could be argued that the rim (particularly an alu one) is better for heat dissipation, but the reality is "it depends", and to the pros both systems are adequate. I think there is a perception in some quarters that rim brakes will be inadequate, but they simply aren't (if they're good and set up well) for road riding, except for wearing through rims, which isn't an issue for the pros.

It's probably worth saying as well, that maximum stopping power (and thus control of that power) comes when the brake pad/surface is up to temperature. In an emergency, a disc does this VERY quickly, whereas a rim doesn't usually do this in anywhere near as timely a fashion.

I had someone open a car door on me this week, at 24kph and just passing the rear of the car, I still managed to stop before hitting them. A similar situation in the evening just a few weeks before (on my rim braked Kona) when a lady pulled out in front of me, I had twice the stopping distance/reaction time but still had to swerve in front of the car to avoid an impact. In neither situation did I lock a wheel, but came close with the discs.

I do wish people would stop spouting this crap. It's nothing to do with absolute power, it's to do with how that power is applied and the modulation and control that you can have.

You're right, you might be better off with discs if you don't have the experience or dexterity to modulate caliper brakes.

I can manage with caliper brakes just fine, thanks. I'm also capable of using downtube shifters and clips & straps.

Same here. Not sure what sort of point you're trying to make though.

Same here. Not sure what sort of point you're trying to make though.

The point is that hardly anyone uses them, because newer alternatives are preferred.