I have Humpert space bugels on one of my bikes :), as above
I thought stifling competition through the application of patents was a bad thing
Far from it, they're [u]supposed[/u] to protect people's ideas and allow them to profit from them...
Realistically Patents have two practical functions (assuming its a good idea) ideally they'll force competition to negotiate for the rights to your idea, saving you the time, money and hassle of tooling up to manufacture and market it yourself and letting you generate revenue far sooner...
More typically however they're not much better than a headstart, once it's filed your description of your idea is out there for the competition to work round, or if they're wealthy enough, simply batter you when you try challenging them on legal grounds.
The H bar is an interesting one, I do wonder how well it would hold up to the preceeding hundred years or so of bicycles with all manner of interesting bar designs for someone to try and cite as prior art.
The patent also goes and specifies the angle of "approximately 45*" so you're part way to maybe getting round it by drawing a bar with say 43* or 50* maybe? Tweaking some elements of the construction perhaps, maybe finding a way to make the forward extensions asymmetrical (and still useful of course)? Who knows, someone determined enough could get round it I'm sure...
For some companies (particularly smaller ones) it's enough to just avoid selling into their home market as defending a patent internationally can be harder...
I heard an interview with Beth Barrington (the woman behind Wildcat) where she was asked about whether they had patented their designs and she replied that a) all the bikepacking companies were doing more or less the same thing and b) the cost in pursuing copycats (sic) for a small company such of theirs was prohibitive.
That's true to a point. Wildcat tackled the handlebar and saddle harnesses differently to anyone else (thanks to Jameso for highlighting this). At the time we were small and doing it mainly as an extension of our requirements and our own pursuits
Interestingly, Revelate came out with the terrapin, which had been "18 months in development", which was exactly 18 months after we released the Tiger. It does the same thing, but differently. Alpkit produced their handlebar harness that mounted off the fork crown, same principle as our design from two years earlier. Does the same thing, but differently.
The cost of patenting our designs, and then challenging anyone who chose to copy them would be prohibitively expensive, given the relative size of the Bikepacking market.
Question for Biff - why speak to Alpkit about a bag for the Jones Loop? We've had one available for ages* 🙂
*which is another Wildcat idea that's been copied around the world...
*pours another glass*
Question for Biff - why speak to Alpkit about a bag for the Jones Loop? We've had one available for ages*
And very good it is too!
Question for Biff - why speak to Alpkit about a bag for the Jones Loop? We've had one available for ages
I think he meant bags for the front triangle of the actual bike frame.
Which everybody seems to make (see above).
I stand corrected.
the alpkit/jones diamond frame bags must be the best part of 5 years old...
Shim them and mount them at the loop?
Cowhorns with a crossbar, innit.
I was looking forward to trying something like this at a more affordable price.
And when is someone going to release a carbon apehanger?
[i]Why speak to Alpkit about a bag for the Jones Loop? We've had one available for ages[/i]
Ages? I was talking to Alpkit August 2012. Not sure when you were doing yours (if I read your website correctly (your lovely) Tom Cat announced November 2014 and mentions 18 months development). We digress.
£35 is hard to argue with.
Whilst proper Loops are undoubtedly expensive, I personally think they're worth every penny.
Alpkit have always been about value, but given their humble beginnings, I thought they'd have given a bit more consideration to a one man band like Biff, I assume bars make up a decent chunk of sales for him and I expect will feel the impact of this much more than Jeff.
As mentioned above, Surly could've knocked out a copy, but chose to recognise Jeff's contribution. That was a classy move, and to me at least enhanced my view of Surly.
I don't think the comparisons between the OO Mary or that Humperdinck thing are valid, variations on the same theme maybe, but having had both Mary's and Jones loops, they don't feel at all similar in use.
As it happens, I was looking for another set of loops, hoping to pick up a used set (A purchase which neither Biff nor Jeff would have benefitted from), but I'm now inclined to buy a set of proper Loops at full retail in light of this.
As mentioned above, Surly could've knocked out a copy, but chose to recognise Jeff's contribution. That was a classy move, and to me at least enhanced my view of Surly.
This is exactly the point. Whilst the same in principle I could see a large faceless organisation just copying Jeff's design and being done with it. Whereas I would have thought Alpkit, being a relatively small manufacturer as Jeff is, would have taken the Surly example in a 'let's stick together' approach, especially given the market for loop bars must be pretty small anyway so it's hardly going to be a massive sales winner for the firm.
That said I don't think anyone has confirmed the sweep and it may be that they're significantly different in both sweep and width.
Now who on this thread that's standing up for Jeff bought a Stooge instead of a Jones..... 😉
Eh, Stooge looks nowt like a Jones, looks like an On-one Fatty however... 
Right. Wary of big posts as tend to [i]can of worms[/i] chaos.
Good to see lots of smart/considered conversation. Thanks.
I did email AlpKit and was keen to hear from them but nothing (yet)...
[ edit - email from AlpKit ]
So which number was it?
I don't see what Alpkit have done wrong, Its a handlebar, just a bit of a different shape. If nobody was allowed to make anything like anyone elses where would we be.
Eric started Revelate in 2008 and Scott started Porcelain Rocket in 2009 so there were already at least two small-scale suppliers that could have been approached.gil_ - Member
the alpkit/jones diamond frame bags must be the best part of 5 years old...
I could get it if it was the H bar in question....
But its a loop bar.... and fundimentally the difference between a jones loop and the humpbert space bar is that Jones bars are 31:8 and width - so its a patent infringement.
OR is it .... i mean go to holland - theres bikes older than the sun there sporting space bars.
I don't think the two markets will overlap..
A bar at £35 is not gonna appeal to the sorts of people that spend £140+ on a bar and vice versa
As a product design student in the late 80's i designed and made a bike frame 'bag' for my bmx. I still have the drawings and pics of the prototype. It wasn't made from fabric as the project was to do with vac forming (so it's plastic). It looks, and is attached to the frame in a very similar fashion to the ones 'invented' above.
[img] 
[/img]
🙂
Eric started Revelate in 2008 and Scott started Porcelain Rocket in 2009 so there were already at least two small-scale suppliers that could have been approached.
It's a triangular bag, that's the right size to go in the triangular space of a frame and held in by velcro. It's hardly IP theft. I had a small version on my MTB's as a teenager, looked like this, but cost £5.99 from Aldi, and definately pre date's Revelate and PR, and it was undoubtedly copied from bags that were around 100 years ago. And by current one came from Ibera for £20, again held on by velcro but big enough to hold a 1 man tent.
[img] http://media.chainreactioncycles.com/is/image/ChainReactionCycles/prod33846_Black_NE_01?wid=500&hei=505 [/img]
The bars are unique and Jones (probably, unless someone can dig up some prior art) deservedly has the patent on them. But frame bags are 10 a penny and have been since bikes adopted triangular frames.
I bet ^ he's on here
I may be massively wrong here but I thought patents only work in the country they are registered, so Jones would need a worldwide patent which is rare and expensive.
When the Horst/fsr link was still under patent by Specialized, it was only valid in the USA and Canada. That's why the Germans such as Rose, Canyon etc and the French were able to sell Horst link bikes in the UK and the rest of Europe for years before the USA patent finally expired. They just weren't allowed to sell them in the USA, now they can and loads of brands now use the Horst link when previously they said the faux-bar etc were better.
So presumably as long as Alpkit only sell the bar in the UK and Europe they will be fine, unless Jones pay for and register a Europe wide patent.
It's not really about patents though. It's the fact that Alpkit have a very eco-friendly, ethical image and their actions don't appear to agree with this marketing image.
A blend of 1 and 3. I’ve spoken to Nick at Alpkit.
It was a good conversation. He might post something here.
I wrote so much it’s a shame to waste it…
For the record… Jeff (and his wife Sheila) *are* Jones Bikes (they do now have one person working for them but that is pretty much it). There is no big financial backer. There is no parent company. They are ‘good people, making good things’. Earning a living, not living the life of Riley. Jones Bikes *is* the inventions, the vision, the creativity and passion of Jeff Jones. H-Bar competition (for want of a better word) is a challenge (for want of a better word) to the livelihood of Jeff and Sheila. And me and the independent bike shops that sell H-bars; Shona, Richard, Charlie, David, Jelle, Wayne, Tim, Wolfgang, Giampaolo, Jonathan, Phil (and a few others, but not many, I’ve tried to work with people who get it, not ask about the (not great) margins). It is important that good people do the right thing. It’s not about IP laws, capitalism or ‘dog-eat-dog-reality’ and it’s not ‘so-and-so did this so that makes this alright’ transferred justifications. It’s morals ([i]noun[/i], plural – standards of behaviour; principles of right and wrong) and respect. Charlie has a phrase “don’t be a dick” :O)
I distribute Jones stuff in the UK and Europe because it’s great. And Jeff is unique. I can’t live solely off the money I earn (I’m also a graphic designer and of course The Outcast is an incredibly lucrative sideline) but I want to be a part of the Jones thing. The Jones business is a varying ratio of riding (paradigm-shifting) bikes with lovely people (people truly appreciating the products and the efforts behind them) *and* paperwork and EU sales reports and sales [s]guessing[/s] forecasts and import duty and tax and VAT returns and bizarre ‘can you sell it for free’ requests (from people who must themselves work for free?). I've been riding H-bars since 2004 and got a Jones bicycle a year or so later. I'm old school and old-fashioned (anachronistically principled). I'm sure someone will be along shortly to point out my hypocrisies. We all have them – but lots of wrongs do not make something else right and lots of rights don’t [i]allow[/i] a wrong. I try to do the right thing. One day I might have to ‘eat a dog’ in order to ’survive’ but I’m holding out for as long as I can.
Here’s hoping this reaches an amiable resolution. I'm optimistic.
Biff - that's possibly the most elequent and well reasoned post I've seen on here, cheers 🙂 .
I'm off to see if I can put a Jones bar on my fat bike now.
I dunno if I'll ever be buying a bar that costs more than my frame! Even if it is supporting a very worthy cause
The loop design is very interesting though
I suspect that he would not be offered a patent outside of the US anyway. Not suggesting that blatant copies are "good form" just that I find it difficult to assign any IP to two pieces of tube welded together.
Alpkit also make feedbags for your handlebars. Ok so you could say they are just re-purposed chalk bags but the original were by Epic Ride research, who were bought by Revelate when the owner was looking to wind down business. Eric at Revelate could have easily just started making them without buying out the owner but he didn't. Im not saying at all that alpkit are wrong in their approach, but to see people suddenly jump on them is kinda funny.
It's not really about patents though. It's the fact that Alpkit have a very eco-friendly, ethical image and their actions don't appear to agree with this marketing image.
Well, it would have been about patents if Jones had had one.
In the (apparent) absence of a patent we have instead an (IMO dubious) appeal to morality in the hope that this will allow Jones to continue to sell for circa £130 a style of bar which another company would have sold for £35...
having dealt personally with jeff (bought my spaceframe/truss/loops direct from him) prior to there being any more structured import options to the uk, i think the guy is a star. a unique vision operating on a pretty tiny scale but his stuff really does work. i agree that its possible more folk will arrive independently or otherwise at similar stuff to what he produces which is also the 'risk' of the little guy getting it so right.
also dealt with alpkit (a custom frame bag for the sf etc) so I'm sure everything will work out fine.
4/5 years later, my wife still thinks I'm having an affair with my jones...
[img] [/img]
Yep that's me circa 1880 😛
I wasn't claiming i invented it btw (though i'd never seen one before) just more a comment that you can't really claim patent on something that you didn't invent (i'm sure funny shaped handlebars existed way back then too).
Good to see a total misunderstanding of what a patent is. Always a winner that one.
Thanks Biff for your posts, and it was good to speak to you on the phone. As we both know threads can carried away and true intention can get misinterpreted.
The Fu Manchu bar is a development sample we had at the bike show that we picked for the development table to go with our new bike bags, alloy frame and other new stuff.
It is one of several handlebar developments that are in our minds, down on paper and in sample production. Its nothing more than helping us look at ways to develop bars/bag systems.
If we have been advised right then the patent application was rejected? as it wasn’t unique or novel enough? But our intention is not to rip anyone off.These looped bar designs are over 15 years old now. In the last 15 years geometries, components and bags have developed so much since that we’re just looking at whether we can develop our own bar/bag system, and I don't think this should mean that looped bar development should be off limits
[b]However Biff you are right that this is less about patents and what we can get away with and more about doing the right thing, and as CTBM eloquently puts "not being d1ck” [/b]
So I guess it’s more of a statement of intent rather than an action. As we move into components we know we have an opportunity to integrate our luggage with our bikes in a more modular way, a greater synergy between our software and our hardware. The bars talked about on this thread are a first development step in this direction. They got a good deal of attention at the show and the reaction from people who saw them was that at last somebody was trying to make this style of bar accessible.
We have been making bike luggage since 2007 and have a sizeable, vibrant, motivated team in the factory who come from a varied range of backgrounds in terms of expertise and activities and they are constantly developing new product and tweaking the old, this happens on a daily basis. We have a pretty decent pool of design input so i'm sure there is some path forward for everyone.
I’m sure i’ll speak to Jeff this week and be able to reassure him of our future developments.
Cheers
Nick
Sounds 'furry muff' to me.
Good to see a total misunderstanding of what a patent is.
Always a winner that one.
It's also great when people people smugly tell everyone how wrong they all are
but remain all mysterious and enigmatic as to why 🙄
Its taken you longer to reply than it would to Google it
You've got me hooked.
Do go on ......
a greater [b]synergy [/b]between our software and our hardware
It was all going so well up until that point.... 😉
I have to say I struggle to see where the real problem is. If Jeff has got a patent then OK, not a great idea to copy, but I'm not convinced the idea of loop bars has sufficient IP to warrant a patent. I seem to remember seeing similar design bars on bikes for as long as I can remember. At most I would have thought that Jones optimised and popularised them for mountain biking.
Alpkit and Jones also inhabit different ends of the market. I doubt Alpkit sales will dent Jones' but they may bring people around to that way of thinking so may help Jones either financially or exposure wise. Would it help if Alpkit acknowledged the Jones philosophy behind the loop bars?
Alpkit and Jones also inhabit different ends of the market. I doubt Alpkit sales will dent Jones' but they may bring people around to that way of thinking so may help Jones either financially or exposure wise. Would it help if Alpkit acknowledged the Jones philosophy behind the loop bars?
It might do, or it might demonstrate that there is a market for them and that the patent isn't valid/enforceable, bringing in other manufacturers and further diluting Jeff's market share.
Well anyone buying loop bars that wants to can continue to support Jones, only now they will have a choice. And if there is no patent (whatever that ends up being) then there is no ethical problem I can see.
I just tried to find it out of curiosity (I used to work as a trainee patent attorney for a bit). The only patent I could find was this one..
http://www.google.com/patents/US20040244526
which was abandoned. If you put the application number into the US Patent Office site http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair you can view the correspondence between the Patent Office and the Attorney (I can't see at the moment).
The letter/number after the patent tells you if its been granted or not, A1, A2 etc.. are patent [i]applications [/i], and B1, B2 etc. have been granted.
Yes, they are only valid for the designated region. "European Patents" are converted into a number of local patents upon grant as there isn't really such a thing as a European Patent yet.
If you're reading a patent by the way, claim 1 defines the scope of protection, and it interpreted together with the description. Often the companies use similar description/pictures across several patents to save time and money.
To infringe you have to have ALL features of claim 1. So for instance if you constructed a Jones handlebar which was identical, except that the left tube was not adapted for mounting a brake lever on, you'd be fine.
Also, it can be perfectly acceptable to take known ideas from one area of technology and apply them another, like those thick/thin SRAM chainrings. The fact that no-one had thought to apply that idea to bicycle chainrings until recently could stand in their favour, because they could argue that it is not obvious otherwise it would have been done already given the advantages for DH racing and so on.
(As it turns out, they actually patented the details of the implementation rather than the general concept, because someone HAD already done it)
