I suspect that he would not be offered a patent outside of the US anyway. Not suggesting that blatant copies are "good form" just that I find it difficult to assign any IP to two pieces of tube welded together.
As I understand it, in the US there is no prior art check - so you register a patent with whatever criteria you want to differentiate it from another patent and wait for someone to start action if you've infringed. In the UK they do a prior art check. So it's easy to see how in the US they might say 'ah but this is a 31.8mm bar and the controls go [i]forward[/i] of the stem clamp so it's different, whereas a UK patent clerk might go 'it's a loop bar, it's as old as the hills, jog on'.
So in practical terms then, they are different products. In the same way that my Salsa is a different product to IanB's Shand Bahookie, despite looking extremely similar. Or even more specifically, in the same way that a £70 Easton bar is different to a £10 On-One job.
how does one get the brakes to do this on a fumanchu bar ?
wherein the right [u]front[/u] tube is adapted for mounting a first brake lever and the left [u]front[/u] tube is adapted for mounting a second brake lever.
surely it can only fit on the rear.....
I get it on an H bar...
As it is such a 'marmite' product I'd not want to send £140 to try it, with there being a high chance of me not liking it, so I've not bought one.
For £35 I'd be tempted to give one a try. I'm sure lots of other people are in the same boat.
how does one get the brakes to do this on a fumanchu bar ?
Hope brakes with a two-piece clamp?
Only thing that would tempt me to a loop bar would be doing something like the Tour Divide and having some pads on the stem section to make it into a sort of aero bar. Lighter and less annoying than actual aero bars I suspect.
Various Shimano brake levers have split/hinged clamps too.
Whats the weight comparison on the bars and width ? purchased some Jones bars a couple of months ago and struggled to get my head around the price tag but I had tried a pair and they felt so right.
Rich
Will probably buy some Alpkit bars for my SS at that price?
Various Shimano brake levers have split/hinged clamps too
True, but they don't seem to open wide enough to get them off the bar without removing the grips?
Or was I doing it wrong? Genuine question - it's very possible that I didn't try particularly hard, or I was taking the grips off anyway.
There's a little hole where you need to insert a small awl (or similar) to allow them to open up fully. (RTFM, obviously 🙂 )
For £35 I'd be tempted to give one a try. I'm sure lots of other people are in the same boat.
yeah but then loads of people would have them and they wouldn't be as good then.
100
Pounds or grammes?
kenyan shillings.
Charging £140 for something that costs £10 to make is askng for copies to be made.
£140? You're not considering the added value of the Ti ones then?
http://www.charliethebikemonger.com/jeff-jones-titanium-h-bar-loop-handlebars-2417-p.asp
i find that a little harsh CTK.
unless someone corrects me , they started off being made by a man in a shed by hand in the us. - which is a costly process....
now they are shipped in from abroad where they are made en mass - which should be cheaper.
does the 140 reflect that part ? i cant remember ever seeing the alus for any price other than that.
I did nearly buy a set in bothy bikes in november but ive just stuck with my carnegies and a set of stubbies mounted inboard for the varied position , i still like my aeros for long rides.
Charging £140 for something that costs £10 to make is asking for copies to be made.
I understand where you're coming from but i don't think he IS taking a huge markup, not in his small volumes; and certainly NOT 140%. I also imagine he's tied into some quite specific Jones tooling, having to have large batches of tubes drawn at a time.
It would certainly explain some of his design decisions. For example, when adding width to his Surly versions of the loop bar it was done by lengthening the grip rearward, when adding width by lengthening the central butted/tapered crossbar would be a better solution - doesn't require a stem length change.
The cut loop or original H bar, represents better VFM since it's made from 3 tubes 😉
Bought my Ti H bar back in 2007, second hand for £80, have not used another set set since.
I don't see how patents stifle innovation. Merely copying isn't innovation you know! 😉
I don't see how patents stifle innovation. Merely copying isn't innovation you know!
The stifling innovation point comes from the fact that Jones hasn't developed a new bar in years the lazy bum, just sat back and collected the cheques living the life of riley, if everyone could copy his design he would be forced to come up with something newer and better.
😀
Ghetto loop bars with Marys and some old l-bend bar ends mounted inboard.
Don't tell Jeff.
But will someone make some dirt drops, that fit normal mountain bike controls, for a decent price, and make them available in England?
I'd buy them
But will someone make some dirt drops, that fit normal mountain bike controls, for a decent price, and make them available in England?
I'd buy them
Like these?
[url= http://shandcycles.bigcartel.com/product/shand-one-flared-drop-bars ]Shand ONE flared drops[/url]
Jones bars might be fantastic but the price puts them out of the reach of most riders. Jeff has had years in which he could have produced a cheaper version for the mass market but he has chosen to keep it a niche product. The extra exposure his design gets from imitations being available at real-world prices can only be a benefit for him and the cycling community.
by say licensing his design to that 'small enterprise' Titec and their global distribution network. That really showed the market scope didn't it.Jeff has had years in which he could have produced a cheaper version [s]for the mass market but he has chosen to keep it a niche product[/s]
Jeff has had years in which he could have produced a cheaper version for the mass market but he has chosen to keep it a niche product.
You're unaware of the Jones Bend bar then? Cheaper and lighter!
[img] 
[/img]
those look familiar....
[img] 
[/img]
So those stand ones take MTB controls, not road?
So those stand ones take MTB controls, not road?
ah, my bad, didn't read the part about MTB controls. Too busy trying to get the shameless olug in....
Are people doing that? MTB controls on drop bars? Shifters on the flats?
Jones Bend bars are still relatively expensive and lack the welded junction that make the H-bar/Loop distinctive.
I had forgotten about the licensed Titec version. Obviously that partnership didn't work out.
As it is such a 'marmite' product I'd not want to send £140 to try it, with there being a high chance of me not liking it, so I've not bought one.For £35 I'd be tempted to give one a try. I'm sure lots of other people are in the same boat.
This.. Very much this.
I tried Titec J bars, but they where far too narrow, so sold them after 1 ride.
Granted I could buy the Jones, and I'd probably get back a fair chunk of what I paid for them..
Its possible that Jones missed the Patent
Jones application
[url= https://www.google.com/patents/US20040244526?pg=PA7&dq=handlebar+jones&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UNZuUtzRG-Lj4APxjoDQCA&ved=0CFwQ6AEwBQ ]2003 Jones application[/url]
TBH this thread now has me half considering trying upsidedown Mary bars on my commuter...
Not Jones bars though, I'm just not that rich, niche or bearded...
Its unlikely ampthill as its in his citation.
Readinghis patent its their use for mtb he has applied for.
Jones Bend Bars look similar to On One Fleegle Bars. Very comfy sweep and approx 250g for the Pro version.
EDIT Or halfway between Fleegle and Mary Bars.
I thought the Jones bend bars were 45* back sweep, fleegles are only 15* not sure about the Mary, not actually given on the website, looks like a bit less than the Jones though... Anyone know?
So those stand ones take MTB controls, not road?
ah, my bad, didn't read the part about MTB controls. Too busy trying to get the shameless olug in....Are people doing that? MTB controls on drop bars? Shifters on the flats?
I'd give my left plum for a flared drop bar that I could mount mtb hydro levers on (s/Speed, so no shifters).
That's my point....a flared drop ( think midge etc) set up just like a normal bar...grips, shifters brakes on the grip part of the drops.
I've tried marys flipped, but the bend is wrong...I've also got an old pair of risers, heated them and bent them in a pipe bender..one side turned out ok, but then made the angle wrong to get the other side right!
that Jones Diamond Unicrown frame, groundbreaking, 😆
[quote=ampthill ]Its possible that Jones missed the Patent
97 Application
Jones application
2003 Jones application
CBA working out what the differences are (why should I do something the US patent office can't be bothered with?) but in a general sense there is doubtless too much prior art for a patent on such bars to be valid except if it's very specific about the implementation - which would therefore make it trivial to bypass. Though as discussed the US patent office appears to be happy to register patents without bothering with prior art searches and let such things be decided in the courts - hence the Horst link patent which should clearly have been invalid due to prior art. I understand Scott considered fighting that at one point, but backed off - not because they thought they couldn't win the argument, but because Specialized spend a lot of money on lawyers.
Anyway, I think we all agree this isn't a patent issue - there certainly isn't any patent in force which would prevent Alpkit selling totally identical bars. So we come back to the morals - I totally get that Jeff Jones isn't some huge monolithic corporation and that he shouldn't be blatantly ripped off - but the question is whether that should prevent others from making similar products for those people who wouldn't spend £140 on a bar. I'm not convinced there is such a huge amount of Jeff's IP in those bars - if anything it seems he's simply popularised the idea rather than invented it.
That's my point....a flared drop ( think midge etc) set up just like a normal bar...grips, shifters brakes on the grip part of the drops.
Really? When I'm on the drops is when I'd want to grab a brake lever. Up on the flats, I'm just pootling.
Surely the issue here isn't about patents or morals but about who has the biggest beard?
Nasty corporate man: [img] .jpg)
[/img]
Cool hipster dude:
[img] 
[/img]
See my point?
Ah yes, but Mike's Splitty is cooler than a penguin's pantry, so that has to mean something.
I know they're supposed to be niche but this
[url= http://oldglorymtb.com/round-up-alternative-or-alt-mountain-bike-handlebars/ ]long list of curly whirly, flared and bendy bars for the non-conformist, off-roaderists[/url]
suggests the niche is growing to me.
So maybe Jeff should keep an eye out for Mr Sinyard muscling in...
Nothing Jones strikes me as groundbreaking or special in any other way than the visual, but yes it's a different style to the mbr "norm". Can you have the geometry on other bikes. Yes. Will it be expensive? Not really.
Jones seems to benefit from a reputation far and above other, arguably more innovative folks, like Rick Hunter of Hunter cycles. It all stinks of a "this looks good and I can flog it under this bumph" design rather than any real utilitarianism.
If you want vertical compliance with lateral stiffness Curtlo or Hunter have linkage and flex designs that don't introduce so much lateral wobble and a soft tail design would work even more effectively. The truss fork is a neat idea but with the thin curves would need reworking to actually get the fore-aft and torsional stiffness claimed, check out the old merlin project e for example.
(Long, tedious post snipped)
I suppose that he seems to be earning a decent wage doing something he likes, for that, good on him.
So maybe Jeff should keep an eye out for Mr Sinyard muscling in...
And yet Trek already have, under the stealth cover of Bontrager. Hasn't Keith got a beard? That might explain it.
dunno , i rode a jones for a bit and it was certainly a notable and on the most part exceptional ride.
i came away very impressed but not as was being banded about at the time for a space frame and truss fork in ti from the main mans fair hands £5000 impressed.....
