[Closed] 29er adoption resistance theory

Why go to the hassle of more cost, factory searching, designing, tooling etc, etc, when you could go ahead making money just fine with what you've already got?

TBF the cycle industry didn't have the balls to go out and out 29er from day one did they. So they didn't fully believe their own hype all those years back. It's been drip drip and now they're getting all cocky.

29 ers will have truelly arrived when they are no longer described by their wheel size

Good point, but what do you suggest we call them.

Bikes?

Doubling back, cars etc are not classified by wheel size, more their intended purpose... Offroader, family car etc. the thing with bikes is that YOU are the engine, the 2.8 V6 in my car has little emotion, does not use STW, rarely screams with pain... When you are the engine you feel the difference in wheel size, when you are the driver you probably don't.

Can we name bikes by their degree of suffering?

have a chat to BETD goldtec, Kev rides an dinky niner and loves it and you can probably have a go on his to see if you'd like them to get one for you

Ha ha, that's the second time someone's recommended I go to goldtec and borrow Kev's bike, last time was when I was complaining about the lack of small Mojos to demo! A visit may be in order...

Especially guys like Specialized making the Rockhopper a 29er only; as an entry level bike people will think it's the norm

We made a ridgeback 'hybrid+'/29er 6 years ago- it felt like a better bike for what 90% of people do on entry level sub £600 MTBs (easy trails, 'a bit of everything') and I still believe that. Tyres and forks were still limited, partic at that level. It didn't sell that well, feedback was that retailers saw it as a 29er and they hadn't bought into the idea. Some saw the appeal and sold them, but generally it was a slow sale into the shops, never mind to customers. Commercially, Spesh have got the timing right. As the customer progresses they may want a more chuckable bike, they'll soon find them if they want them.

oldgit, imagine the fuss if a big brand went 26 to 29 in one year 4 years or so ago.. commercially a huge gamble unless you're a brand needing a USP like Niner.

I notice Charlie that when I talk to my American friends about Singlespeed ratios they automatically talk in 29er ratios. 29ers are now inbeded in their culture, 26ers are the 'VHS' of the world. We are so far behind America and the bike industry with newer technology it's sad. We are easily five years behind them where 29er tyre sales outstrip 26ers. Bored of the whole thing now! Lets stop being 'stuck in the muds'

But then, Charlie, you kind of have a vested interest in selling people new stuff don't you? No criticism, but it's a fact. And 29ers are a godsend to the industry, a perfect storm of generalised obsolescence. New, frames, new wheels, new tyres etc...which is good news if you sell bikes and bits, no.

Yeah but no but yeah

I think some in the industry in general see it as godsend. But at the retail end they might see it as a stock nightmare (so I now need to keep 26, 700c , 20, 12, 24, 27inch, 27 1/4 inch and 29 tyres... FFS) . It's a commitment to go 29, you need a whole new bike, but I suspect a new bike is not purchased because of 29, a new bike was on the cards anyway. "I'm after a new bike and looking at 29ers". I see it everyday. I think it gives the industry something to do, marketing men get to talk fresh twoddle, manufacturers have new products, the warehouse dude gets a new shelf... But it's not fresh new sales. When bmx turned up, it gave the tired trade of steel racing bikes a shot of fresh rad, not just sales, but folk new to cycling buying bikes, new sales. 29 is the same folk with a bigger wheel.

So how many early adopters of 29" will try out 650B?
Or will they say 'I don't see the point, I like my 29"', echoing many 26" rider's (perfectly legitimate) feelings now?
Will some 29" purchasers feel like 26" riders do now, that people are trying to say that 650B makes their bikes are obselete / inferior / less suited etc?

Interested to hear an answer to this too.

@ctbm On reflection I don't know that this phenomenon really exists. A couple of people here bang on a bit about the so-called 'hype' and 'pressure', but that doesn't make a movement, it's just a handful with some kind of issue.

Most people, the vast majority I think, are cool, ride whatever they want and can make up, or change, their minds when they're ready.

People might just enjoy the world more if they focused more on the experience of riding, listening to music, watching great cinema, rather than obsessing about the medium that brings them that experience.

Could not agree more. I believe cycling has almost nothing to do with bikes. It's about:
Cakes
Beer
Skids
Racing your buddies to the pub
Horse shit
Big views
Adventure
Swimming
Pasties
Cheese
Sausages
Giggling
Scabs
Pain
Suffering
Cider
Shouting at careless motorists
More cakes

Surly have a sticker "bongs, farts, chainsaws" which pretty much covers it.

HOWEVER: what would the mags write about if they did not talk product. Imagine a crazy world where they wrote about "riding bikes" *

* stw excluded from that cheap stab.

I saw a bling 29 er the other day. It looked ok for riding in circles but for the riding I like to do, messing in the woods, steep tight tech trails, I couldn't see how it could be good fun.

Not for me.

You don't have to believe the hype

I do wish the 29er evangelists would give it a rest for a while. At least until I've sold off all my old 26" bits.

So how many early adopters of 29" will try out 650B?
Or will they say 'I don't see the point, I like my 29"', echoing many 26" rider's (perfectly legitimate) feelings now?

I've tried out a 650b bike.
As I will try out most new things so that I know first hand what they're like. I try not to rely on other peoples opinions prefering to try it myself.
It just felt like a 26er to me.
Though maybe that's because i rarley ride my 26er any more.

Charlie sells 29ers, Charlie isn't selling enough 29ers, Charlie starts a debate on Singletrack knowing its what Singletrackers do best, Charlie raises the profile of the things he sells.

Yes I have trust issues.

Stw is the best place on the web for a good debate, but I am genuinely curious, and enjoying this. Some of the comments are so true, sincere and grounded

.the limiting factor with my riding is me, i could do with having better technique, being fitter, being braver

I don't think I can raise the profile of 29, where can I take it, it's oh so damned high already. And if this thread generates any business, I have probably put 99.9% of it into wiggle CRC etc. sincerely I am here because I love what I do, and I enjoy your company. My old career was marketing, brand management, so this is a subject that I know and enjoy... Tell you what... Now you know my background you may well make a judgement, let me help you... The subject is car insurance but a crammed in a good tune, chicks and Harleys. Who is the Dude with the newspaper?

I've tried out a 650b bike.
As I will try out most new things so that I know first hand what they're like. I try not to rely on other peoples opinions prefering to try it myself.

AKA constantly on the lookout for something new, never satisfied with the perfectly decent bikes you've already got. 😉

Brum: trying, actually throwing your leg over, grabbing the bars, stomping and spinning, wafting and sliding.... for a first hand experience is very different to not being satisfied.

Which is one reason I keep demo bikes, you can't beat the real thing. One experience is worth 1,000 stw threads.

I absolutely love my Cotic Solaris, not sure about full suss 29ers though. I normally ride an Alpine 160 but it may be some time before that comes out again. Its just different,huge fun on long distance rides, I was sooo close to buying a fs version but thank god I didn't.

What concerns me a little about this whole thing is newcomers to the sport not getting enough help to make an informed decision at time of purchase. I recently guided three adults who were fairly new to mtbs around the Fod and all of them had carbon specialized 29ers just because they were told they roll faster etc etc. And i can't help feeling that's what the shop wanted to sell them just because they were the latest thang.
Oh, and one of the frames snapped 🙁 not that it means anything.

Brum: trying, actually throwing your leg over, grabbing the bars, stomping and spinning, wafting and sliding.... for a first hand experience is very different to not being satisfied.

Which is one reason I keep demo bikes, you can't beat the real thing. One experience is worth 1,000 stw threads.

Yeah I agree and I'm certainly up for trying one (I have had a brief spin on one but not a proper ride), I'm just not really desperate to make it happen. If I was going to buy a new bike it would either be a DH bike, or I would just be buying a different frame and swapping bits over.

Like some folk are saying, 26 can be good for some things,29 better for others.

For me, I still choose 26 as the best all rounder through trial and error. I have owned fully rigid 26 and 29, short travel 26 and 29,longer travel 26 and ridden a reasonably long travel 29 (blur ltc)

For hammering around technical trails both up and down I found the Blur with longer travel a good bike up steep rough climbs and steepish rocky descents. The extra travel over my own short travel 29er seemed to help and the momentum seems to keep up the pace both up and down rocky trails... when you are putting the power down.

Now here's the bit that sways me back to 26 as the happy medium through trial and error riding in the Cairngorms,Torridon,trail centers.. right down to old school firetracky stuff around the highlands. The pace that I tend to propel my 13.5 stone around these terrains on an average ride never benefits from a 29 inch wheel over the whole ride compared to a 26. This is what I have found having ridden them from fully rigid through to longer travel on all the above mentioned terrain.

If I ride 29 as I have always done,at the same pace.. the wheelsize is not as suitable either up or down a hill,rough or smooth,as the pace/speed I find myself trying to overcome rock gardens,rocky boulders over Torridon etc is just plain easier at the slower speeds on 26. I can be grinding around 2-3mph up a steep rocky garden and power the bike up and over from near standing starts FAR easier on 26 than any of the 29's I've ridden or owned (both light wheels and mid-weight) This has been found where I have nearly ground to a halt on 29's whereas on 26 I can get up techy stuff. So from experience mixed with my riding style/weight/power output.. the 26 is far easier to ride with.

Not just on techy rocky descents or climbs. I can grind up the likes of the Burma road at a pace I'm comfortable with and get on FAR better on any of my 26 inch wheeled bikes than the 29 inch wheeled bikes I've owned.

I don't know what it'll take (or how long) to make a 29 inch wheel as light,strong and responsive from slow speed acceleration but I have a feeling it could be many years to come.

To recap on that, for my weight,power to weight ratio,riding style,speed on average through the rides I generally do.. a 26 inch wheel is easier to ride over the majority of the terrain,it's also more enjoyable.

Yes, 29 inch works wonders when the gas is on in certain situations but for the whole ride,its 26inch for a long time to come. I tried to adopt one of these 29ers but if it's not quite right for what I do,there's no point in forcing it upon myself any more than I already have done.

For the people that find them better than their 26's through back to back trial and error,Enjoy!

Just found the answer..... Obviously it's not on the subject of 29, but you get the idea...

[i]"CHARACTERISTICS OF THE INNOVATION

Relative Advantage:

Generally, innovations must be seen as producing a SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT over current procedures and techniques in order to be adopted. The benefits must be perceived as so great as to be well worth the inevitable problems and costs associated with any change.
Simplicity:

The innovation, or at least the way it is presented, should be EASY TO UNDERSTAND. Even when users agree that the proposed change would be "good," they may not be enthusiastic if they think it's too complicated to understand or implement.

Easy to Try:

The new method or item must be easy to introduce, as well as easy to abandon if it doesn't seem to be working out. If an agency must make drastic changes in operating procedures in order to try something out, it will resist change, whatever its perceived merits. It helps if a technology can be tried in stages before the final decision to adopt is made.

Easy to Measure:

Once the new procedure or item is in place, it must be easy to measure the benefits, whether in money, time, efficiency or some other evaluation measure meaningful to the adopter.

Inexpensive:

The up-front cost of a new technology is often an obstacle, especially in rural areas and small agencies. If there is a large immediate increase in costs, it will be difficult to get the technology adopted, even if long-term savings are guaranteed." [/i]

So 29 is not easy to try, not inexpensive... But you can sort of measure it, and the relative advantage is easy to understand, but given the cost( when you have a perfectly good bike ) it's difficult to swallow.

I wonder has anyone paid for a 29er, because its 29, rather than they were going to buy a new bike anyway, is 29 a convenient excuse for a new bike, rather than a true "need"?

First off Charlie, thanks for the "No point living sticker" - stuck it outside the local cemetery 😀

charlie the bikemonger - Member

"CHARACTERISTICS OF THE INNOVATION

Relative Advantage:

Generally, innovations must be seen as producing a SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT

Isn't the [i]significant improvement[/i] of 29" wheels simply that they make riding a mountain bike a little bit easier in some situations?

I've not ridden one btw, but have a good imagination.

Euro... You stuck in on a cemetery... I shouldn't be laughing.

Yep, easier, by being faster, bumps steel less speed... In many situations.

You also get a slightly bigger foot print, more traction in corners, on climbs and when braking. (The new 3.0" surly krampus 29er really exaggerates this point)

If you are tall, there is a feeling on being in the bike rather than over the bike, a sort of stability, less going over the bars (and arse over tit)

I wasn't sure. Had a ride on one. Liked it. That's alli have to sy on this matter...

See, a standard 29er doesn't interest me, despite being well over 6 foot, but that surly big fat thing looks like a right giggle. It would let me go places my current bikes can't - I can see the thinking behind that, and it's far enough removed from my regular bikes (jump bike, steel hardtail and 6" DH bike - all 26) to appeal.

[img] [/img]

Euro.... i like your point about being far enough removed from the norm. It's actually just a 29er with more rubber, quite close to 29, a good distance from 26.

Far enough removed... Probably why half the bikes I am building right now are fat bikes.

Here is shonky krampus review.

Blimey some passion on this one...

I've ridden a few 29rs and some were great others not so, in fact I was so blown away by the last one I posted about it...

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/well-a-fantastic-ride29r-content ]After a very cool ride...[/url]

I completely agree with the argument about speed, definitely very quick bikes. I also noticed the ability to hold grip on lose surfaces such as sand, a real benefit especially if you often ride on sandy surfaces as we do. I'm in the process of negotiating the purchase of a 29r as bike number 2. I love my full sus 26" and I've yet to come across a 29r that tempts me away from it for all round trail bashing, but I want a more XC oriented 29r as a stable mate. The speed and climbing ability is addictive and I want some if it... 😀

Read this thread yesterday and went for a very muddy ride this morning and it got me thinking. Have a friend who has a 29er but doesn't ride it when claggy because the longer footprint (that gives many of the grip advantages) has a bad effect in the mud making it very draggy and when the tyres fill up they are heavy also not great clearance round the BB but this may just be his bike.
I am not a 29 hater - think lots of choice can only be good but this seems like a genuine disadvantage for UK winter rides but I had never heard it reported in magazines or on forums and wondered why not. What do other 29er riders find? Just curious.

I rode my 29er yesterday - in very muddy conditions - when I got home I was pretty much covered in the stuff - anyhow my bike was fine in the mud - despite running a 2.4" tyre in the rear and a 3.8" Surly Nate on the front - no problems with the mud.

a bad effect in the mud making it very draggy and when the tyres fill up they are heavy also not great clearance round the BB but this may just be his bike..What do other 29er riders find? Just curious...

Could not agree more. I believe cycling has almost nothing to do with bikes. It's about:
..........

Amen.

I could have the best bike in the world, but without being out there with my buddies in the mud and rain and frost and sunsets and moonlight and puddles and gales and dust, and then warming by the fire in the pub afterwards talking crap, it would be nothing.

Read this thread yesterday and went for a very muddy ride this morning and it got me thinking. Have a friend who has a 29er but doesn't ride it when claggy because the longer footprint (that gives many of the grip advantages) has a bad effect in the mud making it very draggy and when the tyres fill up they are heavy also not great clearance round the BB but this may just be his bike.
I am not a 29 hater - think lots of choice can only be good but this seems like a genuine disadvantage for UK winter rides but I had never heard it reported in magazines or on forums and wondered why not. What do other 29er riders find? Just curious.

My 29 is great in the mud, the 26s nonce about going around, I just go straight through. The momentum carries you through and you lose nothing like as much speed as on a 26. Same for big puddles. It's massive fun. I have a 2.35 on the front, it's like the parting of the Red Sea. The bike is SS so I don't have to give a toss about the drivetrain so that helps too.

AKA constantly on the lookout for something new, never satisfied with the perfectly decent bikes you've already got.

That's quite a negative view.
I just see it as there could be something even betterer out there and the only way to find out is by trying new stuff for yourself.
Do you eat the same food every day and dissmiss everything else that's new to you as wrong. 😉

Momentum is all very well but it was all muddy today. Momentum won't get you through all of it!

I tried a fully rigid 29er for about a year. Then I rode a fully rigid 26er for a couple of months. I went back to the 29er, just felt right. It just seems to roll better over the terrain near where I live. I'm going to be going mid travel full suss next spring, hopefully there will be a suitable Yeti by then...

Momentum is all very well but it was all muddy today. Momentum won't get you through all of it!

I found fitting pedals to my 29er solved that problem.

^^ 😆

I guess it's all a question of personal taste and function. 26ers general accelerate better and turn better, 29ers roll faster and are a bit more stable. Neither is better or worse depending on your riding style and discipline. Each to their own and all that.

I'm pretty short and waiting until a small Solaris comes out next Feb. Until then I'll stick to my FS 26er and 26er hardtail.

650b is supposed to become the next big thing and surpass both...being the best of both worlds...apparently?!

Three of us did a fun test at Learnie jump park a few months ago to see how far we could roll around the whole area without pedalling.

One 100mm travel 26er, One hardtail 26er (Susp up front) and a 29er with approx 80mm rear/110mm up front.

Each of us rolled around the track and the 29er was stopping short of the 100mm 26er by approx 20ft.

Each of us marked the spots where each bike rolled to a stop and we all tried out each others bikes to find the 29er rolling to a halt,20ft short of the short travel 26er. The hardtail was also ahead of the 29er (which I thought would be the best in sillytest).

Fun little play around,not scientific but .. oh well. :O)

The interesting thing is the way that probably chubby, probably middle aged, probably men, will debate the miniscule performance differences of which ever piece of machinery they are concerned about this week for ages and ages and ages, while never ever even getting close to using said machinery at anything like its limit.

You very funny people.

Copied from that other thread..

I hate to break it to folks but the idea that everyone in the UK that buys a mountain bike is off riding sweet singletrack every day is a complete red herring. Most are bought by folk that will do not much more than ride on the streets, canal tow paths and old railway lines. For that application the hybrid/29er makes a lot more sense.

In 10 years, 26" wheeled bikes will be a specialist purchase, much like 20" is now. Choice will be a lot less and not all manufacturers will bother with them.

Three of us did a fun test at Learnie jump park a few months ago to see how far we could roll around the whole area without pedalling...

What was the surface like?

29" rolls better where there are things for the wheel to fall into - the reason it rolls better is that the angle of attack of the wheel is less. But if it's gravel or smooth dirt, then it doesn't matter.

I wonder how much of the 29er effect is psychological?

Oh, and as a corollary - on Tarmac, wheel size is irrelevant. 29"/700c wheels are no faster, assuming same tyre and tyre pressure. That's why recumbents and Moultons are so fast on the road - small, light, stiff wheels with less air resistance.

It's not like a fresh bmx track smooth. If you know what I mean. It's not exactly rough either. Canal towpathy?

After doing it we never talked about it and to be honest.. I haven't even analyzed it at all. With the tyres and pressures and everything else being different,there's not much to look into. The 29er just rolled the slowest no matter which one of us rolled it.

The funny thing is, same brand/model of bike but with a lighter set-up and a pro2/flow/tubeless combo, the same thing happened coming over the crest of a hill around a well known race course up here. Everyone on 26 inch wheeled bikes rolled off into the distance while I went backwards. I said at that very moment 'erm,whats the deal with this?.. I thought 29ers were supposed to roll faster?!' as the others picked up speed and moved ahead down the track. I even pointed out that although we were descending,I was probably the heaviest rider in the group and still going backwards.

Again, another moment I haven't analyzed but coupled with a constant feeling of riding with the brakes slightly binding.. compared to my other 26 inch wheeled bikes.. something had to give.

I even have a zesty that can often feel quicker on the climbs. I felt this with both 29er's I have owned and also felt it on a demo bike that's probably classed as the holy grail of longer travel carbon 29ers at the moment.

It's strange. I don't have the time or patience to look into it. All I know is that I'll be enjoying the 26 wheel for a while yet.

[Img] [/img]

Only donuts care what size the wheels are... bikes are ace.

I saw a guy on a p5 the other day full aero ,zipps ,helmet slammed (contorted) as low as he could get, problem was the grass was growing faster than he was going , don't think at middle aged fat bloke level the bike makes much difference and if your 40 and in Cameron's work till you drop big society you can either argue for the next ten or have fun doing it on whatever takes your fancy

I do get the feeling sometimes that new trails are built to suit 29" wheels, being smoothed out, less technical and less tight and twisty in an effort to force us all down the 29 route.

I love these comments... completely missed the point 😀

You've clearly not ridden a 29er then. It's on the rough techy trails that the big wheels have the most advantage in my experience - rock gardens, steps, roots etc. Suggesting they're only suitable for smooth trails or tarmac is madness as they're where the big wheel has no advantage over the 26er.

I'll agree with you on the very very tight twisty stuff though, my 29er is slower through those sections, and definitely needed a slight change in technique.

Three of us did a fun test at Learnie jump park a few months ago to see how far we could roll around the whole area without pedalling...

Most are bought by folk that will do not much more than ride on the streets, canal tow paths and old railway lines. For that application the hybrid/29er makes a lot more sense.

Try the same test over a rough techy rock garden, that's where the big wheels come into their own. The idea that 29er's perform best on smooth surfaces is a myth.

NB. You also choose the trails you ride, nobody forces you, so if you don't like smooth less technical trails then man-up and shred the gnar 😈

It's not like a fresh bmx track smooth. If you know what I mean. It's not exactly rough either. Canal towpathy?

Ah, well then I'm not surprised at all that the 29er was slower - on that kind of surface, wheel size doesn't matter much until you get very small (like 16"), and with a 29er you've got a heavier wheel so more inertia, making acceleration slower.

What everyone says is right - the rougher the surface, the more having a big wheel will help - big wheels don't fall so far into a hole. Not sure about the "technical" bit of it - you're fighting the inertia again with technical stuff.