Really? You don’t see the increasing divisive politicisation of the LGBTQ+ community?

That’s not quite straightforward to answer, because there are some areas of politicisation but they’re quite specific, such as things rainper has talked about.

But my short answer is no, not in any way that does or could potentially relate to sport (except for what the OP and thread is about).

I disagree that sport has been “selected” as a proxy battle ground for anything else. I think it’s exactly what it purports to be – one part of the broader discussion around women’s rights versus trans women’s rights.

This even extends to within the LBGTQ+ community, where many trans rights activists are strongly opposed to lesbian women meeting at all unless they include ‘male lesbians’. In recent years in some countries, eg Australia and some US states, it’s actually been made illegal for lesbian women to meet in this way. It’s a real and imminent threat to many people.

The one mainstream area of debate where it’s not about women’s rights is the question of child transition. I’ve seen you write a lot about this personally, so I have some small idea of that you’ve been through. All I want to say about this is that I hope it brings your son the happiness he deserves.

*so it turns out I didn’t know what purports means 🙂 I meant exactly what it says it is

I’d suggest it already is, where prominent athletes and ex-athletes are vehemently against transathletes ostensibly on the basis of competition but scratch below the surface and there’s a nasty smell.

I think thats an oversimplification. After all its not “transathletes” but mtf transathletes.
Its certainly being exploited by some groups who do see it as an opportunity to if not gain some votes at least persuade some women not to vote but going for the “nasty smell” with regards to those prominent athletes is problematic.

Tell me again about how inclusive we are, about how people should be free to live their lives. The indicators are all in the wrong direction for one section of the community. Is anyone surprised by these survey results.

https://natcen.ac.uk/publications/bsa-40-liberalisation-attitudes

Tell me again about how inclusive we are, about how people should be free to live their lives. The indicators are all in the wrong direction for one section of the community.

You’re comparing results of surveys that bear no relation to one another – one has data going back to early 1980s, the other has data going back to 2019. Come back in 34 years time and see where we’re at.

It’s only in recent years that the Trans debate has come into mainstream media so attitudes are bound to spike.

Back in the 80s the only time any such thing was talked about was when someone chatted a ‘bird’ up in a nightclub only to be a little surprised later in the evening.

What has changed that opinion?

Linguistics? I reckon that more folk than ever have become aware of the difference between sex and gender due to the ongoing debates. If that same question was about gender then it may have ellicited a different response.

Linguistics? I reckon that more folk than ever have become aware of the difference between sex and gender due to the ongoing debates. If that same question was about gender then it may have ellicited a different response.

I don’t think a proportion of the population at least does make such a differentiation – and in any case the report says ‘transgender’ which despite saying gender doesn’t really differentiate

“64% describe themselves as not prejudiced at all against people who are transgender, a decline of 18 percentage points since 2019 (82%)”

In the same spirit as looking like, quacking like – we can try to rationalise by language and methodologies, but the reality is pretty clear to anyone close to it, and being driven further by (RW) <span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>politicians, the mainstream press, and personalities.</span>

I’ve just seen that article. Apparently the female was getting battered. Just not fair at all.

Strange that this ‘madness’ with this particular athlete has been going on since 2018 and no one has batted an eyelid.

You’d think people would have noticed the trail of broken bodies in her wake.

entirely possible that she just isn’t that good of a boxer, so is not dominant despite allegedly raised testosterone levels. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It reads like there’s maybe some kind of intersex thing going on, rather than she having been born a man? It’s tricky though as the organisation/individual that previously banned her sounds a bit shady, but if I’m reading it correctly the IOC don’t test for testosterone at all now, instead relying on the honour system?

I’ve just seen that article. Apparently the female was getting battered. Just not fair at all.

Nice dig, they’re both female. Watch the fight and see if you still hold the same opinion.

I disagree that sport has been “selected” as a proxy battle ground for anything else. I think it’s exactly what it purports to be – one part of the broader discussion around women’s rights versus trans women’s rights.

This even extends to within the LBGTQ+ community, where many trans rights activists are strongly opposed to lesbian women meeting at all unless they include ‘male lesbians’. In recent years in some countries, eg Australia and some US states, it’s actually been made illegal for lesbian women to meet in this way. It’s a real and imminent threat to many people.

I’ve recently returned from Germany, where I attended two Pride parades in different cities. What was very noticeable, compared to Pride parades I’ve attended in the past, was the significant absence of older Lesbian women. So it was mainly Gay men, younger Lesbians, and a significant number of straight women. Pride was once a protest for greater equality and inclusion for Lesbian and Gay people. It seems now to be much more of a corporate ‘Pridewashing’ type event. Most older Lesbian women I know would not attend a Pride event, for what they see as it being hijacked by those who wish to exclude gender critical women.

I had to escort my wife and a friend to a feminist conference a couple of years ago, after social media reports of a group of ‘pro trans’ demonstrators threatening women attending the event. When we go to the venue, there was indeed a group of very loud, aggressive young people screaming abuse at any women going in. As a man, I recognise this kind of aggression as very ‘male’. Indeed, it was coming from young men.

I can easily see why there is a short-term backwards hardening of attitudes. The approach is harder and more forceful so people will harden their attitudes in response – in a “I won’t be told what to think” way.

‘Backwards’? Alternatively, it could be that increasing numbers of people are becoming more aware about the issues, and forming better informed opinions. Thankfully, we are starting to move away from a situation where women have been threatened, attacked, cancelled and sacked for stating their beliefs and facts. In sports, it’s good to see that sporting bodies are adopting a more thoughtful and non-destructive approach when it comes to womens’ rights. It’s good to see more and more female athletes coming forward and speaking out against the injustice of being forced to compete against biological males.

I have a niece who is trans. She wants to be a boy. She presents as very masculine. In the past, she’d have been labelled a Tomboy and had all sorts of abuse. She competes very well in sports, and wins competitions against boys. However, that is all about to come crashing down as she’s on the cusp of puberty, and is likely to follow the family trait of a very ‘womanly’ body type. Such is nature. I hope she grows up into a society where gender isn’t an issue, that she can be who she is without prejudice. And that she is happy.

As regards identity; I’m sure many people of colour would like to experience equality and the privilege that having white skin brings. Because no matter how you identify culturally, you will still be judged on the colour of your skin. This is a social reality. And Race, like Gender, is also a social construct.

Well done BruceWee, you’ve ticked a box with that reply.

a significant number of straight women

How did you know they were straight?

How did you know they were straight?

I’ve developed a sense of this.

Clearly has a gaydar everyone, so no need to question

I have a niece who is trans. She wants to be a boy. She presents as very masculine. In the past, she’d have been labelled a Tomboy and had all sorts of abuse. She competes very well in sports, and wins competitions against boys. However, that is all about to come crashing down as she’s on the cusp of puberty, and is likely to follow the family trait of a very ‘womanly’ body type. Such is nature. I hope she grows up into a society where gender isn’t an issue, that she can be who she is without prejudice. And that she is happy.

Sounds like you have a nephew.

What’s that based on?

What’s that based on?

They have XY chromosomes and levels of testosterone that are equivalent to a male of similar age/weight/height

They have XY chromosomes and levels of testosterone that are equivalent to a male of similar age/weight/height

IS that confirmed, do you know? I don’t mean to be argumentative, you understand – I know the now-unsanctioned Rusdian federation DQ’d them, but it’s not like they haven’t been tested here (or in Tokyo).

Princejohn – actually she has differences in sexual development .  Female presenting but genetically male in this case.