British Cycling statement: Transgender and Non-Binary Participation Policy

When the rules were written and male and female categories were created it is this genetic difference that they were looking to accommodate. That hasn’t changed, as genetics hasn’t so seems an entirely rational consistent.

But…….if I were to identify as a woman I think I’d feel aggrieved to have to enter the ‘men’s’ category. Hence why I think ‘open’ is a more welcoming and embracing term. You might need a snappier title than ‘biologically female’ for the alternative I grant you.

It also doesn’t make any sense for most sports

Why is that?

Because it’s “not fair” on those who have transitioned?

I do think we should mostly be listening to women.

Agreed, and perhaps like yours, my views on the subject are mostly informed by having listened to women.

I think it’s actually going to be easier to sort this at the top level than the grassroots and youth mass participation level, where the arguments move away from what’s fair to what people are comfortable with.

Youth is a fascinating one and there’s a reasonable chunk of evidence to suggest that at U8 / U10 / U12, there is very little physical difference between boys and girls, it is certainly possible to hold a single mixed U8 race and then separate the results out to boys and girls but they will all be mixed in.

British Cycling removed the National Series for U8 and U10 a little while ago to remove some of the pressure of competition at such a young age and instead focus on enjoyment, skills development and so on and although there was some push-back from parents, many actually welcomed it in terms of saving significant chunks of cash and also allowing more time in the day for a race organiser to run decent length races for older kids rather than everyone being crammed into one racing programme.

However once past the U12 stage and into U14 / U16, you do get very noticeable differences as children mature at different ages. I’ve seen 14 year old boys built like the proverbial and 16 year old boys who’d be blown away in a stiff breeze which is where factors like gear restrictions come in. BC also have a process by which Youth riders, after scoring a certain number of points in their own age category competition, could apply for Dispensation to ride up into the next older category. There were restrictions on it (Youth riders still not allowed to compete on the open road for example) but it was a good well-managed system for ensuring that one overly mature 14yr old boy did not spend a year lapping the field every time in U14 races but could instead go up to U16 and race.

The problem with that is you run into the same issue that Women’s racing was struggling with for years which is very low numbers.
Organiser puts on Women’s race, gets 3 entries, cancels it and declares Women’s racing a total loss.
Organiser puts on Women’s race, gets 3 entries, spends all his time on social media berating Women for not entering, loses all the goodwill of potential participants, declares Women’s racing a total loss.
Organiser puts on Women’s race, gets some entries, shoots himself in the foot by only paying out paltry prizes (because “smaller field”), social media storm ensues, declares Women’s racing a total loss.

It took years of working with race organisers, progressive improvement in rider categories, points on offer, prizes on offer and so on to bring Women’s racing up to par and that’s with 50% of the population available to race. Try that with 1% of the population (TG) open to race and then understand that it’s not as simple as “TG”; at the very least there is M->F and F->M.

Almost as if it depends on the sport, and the individual. Rules will have to be sport specific, and depend on the level of competition, and it will no doubt exclude some trans-women while hopefully allowing others to compete. It will not be simple if it is to be fair. Of course the simple blanket “no” that the Prime Minister says he backs (knowing most of the population will happily embrace the simple and easy to understand glib approach) is the only path that many people will accept. Governing organisations will have a tough job resisting being pushed down that route… but I hope many will. This needs long careful consideration on a sport by sport, competitor by competitor basis, and will evolve over time.

you have to (I think) define what is male and female, and I think that there is a growing acceptance that the mere presence of a willy or muff doesn’t cut it any more.

Barring those people born with intersex chromosones, this is not difficult to do. The biological definition of male and female is quite easy to establish. The sociological definition is where we run into problems (a problem I am very familiar with and entirely sympathetic to).

The problem with that is you run into the same issue that Women’s racing was struggling with for years which is very low numbers.

True but that’s life; you can’t set rules just to keep everyone happy and to some degree you have to become the change you want to see. Women’s participation has increased because women have started participating, which is due to the initiative of women and is the best and only resolution.

what about rock climbing? Woman are pretty much on par with men.

Is that true? I just had a look and the gap is about two grades, with the hardest ascent by a woman being 9b and 9c for a man. That’s still a very big gap, not really par but then really who cares? Competition rock climbing isn’t really what climbing is about.

If you chose to be different you should have to deal with the consequences.

🤦🏻‍♂️

The stuff about keeping discrimination out of sport also rings very hollow – outside of womens’s downhill, how many pro cyclists are openly gay?

I think you’re in danger of conflating one aspect of discrimination where there is zero potential for someone to have an unfair advantage, i.e. sexual preference, with another in which the question is at best indeterminate. I totally understand and recognise where you’re coming from with that statement, but I’m not sure it’s a valid contrast.

Until we are able to unanimously determine one way or another whether exposure to testosterone in puberty does indeed confer an advantage then we will always have doubt hanging over how fair trans women’s participation in female only events is. And until we do, then we absolutely should continue to debate and discuss it.

On another note, a not all men are stronger than all women, there’s significant overlap between the sexes that are driven by genetics. Some women have the ability to train and develop muscle mass in excess of men (and some of those women may well end up transitioning to a male gender identity) and would be at a distinct advantage over those men in strength based competitions.

Of course the real problem here is that we are so hung up on eugenics when it comes to elite level sport in the first place, but that’s a whole other ball game.

There is only one sport I am good at, but if I were to become a woman there is a very real chance I would be world champion. My 49th in the mens category would have been 3rd in the womens last time. This would understandably (I expect) upset the women who compete at that level, people would definitey notice and would care, at that level the skills are on par but strength and power would give me a huge advantage.

You wouldn’t have the same strength and power if you underwent extensive hormone treatment to feminize your appearance. Particularly if you genuinely wanted to properly feminize your appearance.

You might retain some advantages, but so far the evidence doesn’t suggest it is that great, specifically how many TG women are really participating at the top of the top levels. Read my earlier posts, and also the Pippa York cafe ride video.

Yes there’s a chance that someone somewhere will dose just enough to pass the hormone level test but maximise the retention of male characteristics. Again, not happening yet.

@mattsccm. Really? A ‘choice’? Shall I tell my son he’s just made a bad one; he won’t leave his room currently because he’s a got ‘woman’s problems’, and if he’d just chosen differently he’d be happier?

On another note, a not all men are stronger than all women, there’s significant overlap between the sexes that are driven by genetics. Some women have the ability to train and develop muscle mass in excess of men (and some of those women may well end up transitioning to a male gender identity) and would be at a distinct advantage over those men in strength based competitions.

Yes, some incredibly strong women might be stronger than some fairly weak men in a strength based competition.

However, strength based competitions don’t tend to work like that as they are self selecting in favour of strong people.

For example if you compare powerlifting WRs:
<table class=”resp-tab”>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=”right wclass”>-59kg</td>
<td class=”left name”>Fedosienko Sergei</td>
<td class=”left team”>Russia</td>
<td class=”right dob”>1982</td>
<td class=”right bwt”>58.48</td>
<td class=”right result”>669.5</td>
<td class=”center date”>2016-06-24</td>
<td>Killeen / U.S.America</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
with
<table class=”resp-tab”>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=”right wclass”>-63kg</td>
<td class=”left name”>Bavoil Prescillia</td>
<td class=”left team”>France</td>
<td class=”right dob”>1993</td>
<td class=”right bwt”>62.86</td>
<td class=”right result”>548.0</td>
<td class=”center date”>2021-09-30</td>
<td>Halmstad / Sweden</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
I went up a weight class for the women as the weight classes don’t exactly line up.

I’m fairly sure any Male sport where speed, strength and power is even a moderate factor is pretty safe from Female to Male Transgender athletes.

No lamp.

It just isn’t like that, if you can take the time to actually listen.

Look at the Pippa York cafe ride from about 19 mins. A proper elite level rider being open about what it’s really like.

meanwhile

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/08/trans-people-mental-health-crisis-point-uk-warn-experts

and specifically as the uninformed refuse to try to become informed and just keep saying how simple it is…..

“There is strong evidence that minorities experience greater levels of stress when their rights are being debated,” said Dr Adam Jowett, the chair of the British Psychological Society’s Sexualities Section.

@poah – exactly. Men competing as women will mean some women athletes losing out on prize money, sponsorship and a livelihood because they’re competing against someone who is physically stronger / more athletic.

You can’t start trying to ‘level the playing field’ (pun intended!) by balancing hormones etc.Who would want to partake in that and who would pay for it?

Biology has 2 sexes, keep it simple.

Biology has 2 sexes, keep it simple.

Except, as pointed out several times over the course of just this thread, it’s not that simple.

Biology has 2 sexes, keep it simple.

There are a few chromosonal variations affecting a very small number of people that can make this into a non-binary situation. To be fair though, that’s not (afaik) an issue in the recent British Cycling case, nor any of the other recent, high profile examples. As these variations can be detected by simple testing it shouldn’t be too difficult to create a rule accommodating them. Of course, it then becomes an invasion of privacy issue but regular testing is something that elite athletes have to submit to in any case.

Another random thought…

We have categories of physical disability enabling folk to compete right up to Paralympic level, but nothing similar for those with affected by their mental health.

Biologically speaking it almost is. The frequency of intersex chromosones is so vanishingly small that we can, to all intents and purposes, remove it from the equation.

Depends what you mean. If you mean people who are born intersex and identified as female but effectively go through male puberty then the number is very small. Caster Semenya’s case shows that you can’t just ignore it though

However, the number of people who could be classed as intersex is about the same as the number of people who are transgender (estimates are 1-2%). Most probably won’t gain a competitive advantage from this.

I’ve said it before and it doesn’t seem a popular view but I think the situation with respect to intersex/DSD athletes is similar.

If we want a protected class of athletes called “women” where the vast majority of women feel they fit, and see “someone like them” winning, then we need to define “woman” in such a way as to exclude a fair number of minority cases. Who will themselves be hurt by this decision.

In athletics in recent years it’s not that unusual to see someone who basically appears to be a strong male youth running in amongst a bunch of women.

I know it’s not the same thing as transgender, but the issues seem basically the same to me. What is a woman, in a sporting context?

I’ve got a TERF streak I just don’t seem to be able to let go of. My immediate, instinctual response to cases like this is to think that it’s blokes of a different kind still making life difficult for women. Thinking about it harder I can see it’s not that simple and I’m much more sympathetic, but still a large part of me wants to say go and do something else if you want to go down this path that’s understandably so important to you. I imagine most ordinary trans women must get annoyed at all the drama cases like this bring to their lives. However, having said all that I know that the younger, radical trans rights activists will be proved correct, just as feminists, gay rights and anti-racists have been over the past few generations. I wonder what problem the next generation will struggle to deal with in the way Gen Xers like me have with this one. My guess is body modding, their kids popping their eyes out for cameras or something.

You make it sound like a choice between peas or beans for tea. It’s not a choice in that respect, it’s a necessity for those affected by it.

Why do we make allowances for others in society? Because it’s the mark of a decent civilised society.

I agree that if someone was transitioning just to be competitive then that wouldn’t be right, but once again the overwhelming evidence is that this is not happening. The very few people that are both TG and elite athletes are first and foremost the former and accept the impact that their treatments have on their competitiveness, particularly when the dose rates are sufficient to feminize (let’s be honest this is almost exclusively a MTF TG issue) rather than ‘just enough to pass the testosterone test’ .

As I’ve suggested before look at the Pippa York cafe ride on p1, spend 15 mins listening and maybe you might rethink.

In the end I don’t think a blanket inclusion or exclusion will work, but the ‘there’s two sexes, that’s all we need for competition and anything else is a choice with consequences’ is quite offensive.