Zone 2 Training (yawn…)

First ride with a Garmin (500) HRM today, so I decided to feel what Zone 2 is like as I prepare for winter training to build endurance. Now, either theres something wrong with me, or Zone 2 is really, really slow.

Checked all the zones related to age etc, and even my reseting heart rate is in the “excellent” band.

Is that others experience?

What’s your max? Have you tested it?

How did you work out your zones?

FWIW my (lab tested) zone 2 changed from training

125 – 144 to 140 – 158

Zone 2 you should be able to hold a conversation fairly easily

I rode in at what I think zone 2 is today, under 130 (max HR is 186), it took 54 minutes. The fastet I’ve done is 42. So yes well slow.!

If you don’t do some recovery level or base level training you will burn out / plateu or get fat is my thinking

Try this

http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/heart_rate/heart_rate_zone_calculator_abcc_bcf.html

It was set by the Garmin, then I used an internet calculator for the zones (based on age, weight, activity levels etc. Base was 5 x checking pulse through the day at states of rest, then average at 58bpm. Max is 186, again from the internet.

I could indeed hold a conversation. I did my usual (MTB) training ride as usual pace and found I’m pretty much always in zone 3.5 to 4.3.

Obviously zone 2 on the road would be faster, but probably way below the 17mph average (for 50 & 70ks) I have been riding. The 100k I was planning would take ages!

Zone 2

It is important to note that when out on the open road you may find on hills etc that your heart rate goes out of this zone. It is important to avoid this happening. You may think after uphill sections you can recover back into zone 2 and burn fat again but that’s not the case.

Once your heart rate has gone up your body will kick into sugar burning mode and it can take over 30 minutes to get back to fat burning so the training session can be wasted. 80% of your cardiovascular training should be spent in this zone.

This may seem a little easy and hard to keep to, but the main thing is to be aware of not spending too much time out of this zone. Over time this zone will increase to a level (in terms of heart rate and power output) where you still use fat as an energy source.

TD – I used exactly that yesterday 🙂 and thanks for the text that confirms what I thought. Its a matter of training correctly but I’m going to find this hard indeed….

Obviously zone 2 on the road would be faster, but probably way below the 17mph average (for 50 & 70ks) I have been riding. The 100k I was planning would take ages!

But you wouldn’t be riding it in zone 2. Base training is the foundation of aerobic training where you train your body to utilise fat as an energy source

Eh? I ant to train in Zone 2 for exactly the reasons you mention and build slow twitch endurance – why wouldnt I ride my 100k in Zone 2 – are you suggesting just do a shorter ride? Does that still have the same effect?

. The 100k I was planning would take ages!

I assumed you were talking about riding in zone 2 for the whole of the 100k challenge you were training for.

Sorry.., yes if training in zone 2

Ah yes – training only. The roadie (atm) is a training bike for MTB. I ride 3 x per week – once on the roadie. I’m trying to stretch my distances. At the age of 39 despite riding MTB’s for 10 years (socially) I’m about 3 months in to road riding once per week after racing the MTB’s this year and wanting to continue with that. I’ve basically just been riding as fast as I feel comfortable at 50k, then the last 2 rides have been 70k and now I have a 100k planned.

I’m usual Joe Friels book to train to, but this is the first time I’ve used the HRM. I might then, first try a 50 at Zone 2 otherwise I’m likely to be out for more time than Mrs Kryton would be happy with…. :-/

Cheers for the assist.

Tricky, when you had you zones calculated, were they based on 5 or 6 zones as depending on which you go for it throws up different figures.

I’ve gad a look at your zone link but there’s also this one. Clicky. There’s a link about 2/3 of the way down which gives you a 5 zone chart.

How were you feeling today, not got a cold or anything.

I have been training in Z2 (Don Fink) so maybe a bit different to yours. Did 110m on the road a couple of weeks ago in Z2 and averaged 17mph.

Week after I had a bit of a cold and on similar terrain averaged 15mph over 40m in Z2.

Just a thought

When you say max is 186, have you done this through a self test or by a formula?

I was given a 5 zone chart from my fitness test. I’m not sure it matters how many zones but to work consistently.

The coach doing our weekly turbo sessions uses 6 but i think that’s too much

opps, ignore.

Some of that text strikes me as a bit misleading, zones are not step changes, you don’t suddenly go from ‘fat burning’ to ”sugar burning’ over a 1bpm increase, so I’m not sure about this “30 minutes to get back to fat burning” melodrama!

Using zones from an estimated max HR may well be totally pointless. Do a max HR test. To be honest, riding absolutely flat out up a big hill will give you a reasonable idea. If you’re feeling sick and seeing stars and doing 170bpm (or 200bpm) you’ll want to recalculate your zones!

I use HRM and turbo during winter and for some interval training all year round For a reality check wear your HRM say at local trail centre and record your time and zones. My HR for the black at Afan are nearly all 4 and 5. Little or nothing in Z2. My maximum and rest have been tested professionally so I know Im set up correctly. Point is that for MTB you do need endurance but that could mean using Z4 and Z5 for say a 4 – 5 hour enduro. I tend to just use Z2 for recovery but most of my 3 – 4 turbos per week this time of year are aimed at developing my threshold. I will add distance when the weather warms up 🙂 Just dont be too fixated on long slow. Whats your goal? Adapt your training to your goal. Lots of Z2 may well have a negative affect on top speed or burst power up a steep incline.

I think more in terms of training that brings about an adaption of my VO2 that raises my lactic threshold. So on an enduro I may be in zone 2 but they may well allow me to maintain a lot higher speed/effort than others. One persons threshold isnt the same as the next and its that threshold that defines your ultimate endurance. The higher the better. The change from fat to sugar burning is gradual and this explains why very fit people need less water and food during events as they simply dont burn it up at the same rate as a less fit person for a given speed/effort.

Sorry for rambling but wanted to make sure you noted the plus and minus of long and slow training and alternatives approaches

A couple of other ways to calculate MHR. Link

ome of that text strikes me as a bit misleading, zones are not step changes, you don’t suddenly go from ‘fat burning’ to ”sugar burning’ over a 1bpm increase, so I’m not sure about this “30 minutes to get back to fat burning” melodrama!

To be fair it was taken out of context of a full report i had. The chart showed a gradual decline of using fat as an energy source as my hr went up..

it’s not about miles it’s about hours. zone-2 is best done for longer blocks, if you are after winter base miles to increase endurance then half an hour commute isn’t enough. no idea what miles i’m doing but i try to do 1-2-3 hr blocks.
don’t use a HRM just go on breathing/perceived effort or ride with others with the same training agenda, sticking to the inner ring helps too.

As for goals, I just want to be fitter and faster. I have limited time (work, family etc) and am never going to be on a podium, but it’d be nice to being doing well generally for events such as 50k’s, posting good lap times at things like SITS/Bonty 12, and generally trying to achieve that via the 3 rides a week I can manage consistently.

As some kind of indication – confirms with Pawsy’s info – I did a 31k training mtb ride today, with the following stats:

Average speed 11.9mph
Average HR zone 3.9 (85% max) 158bpm
Max HR zone 5.6 180bpm

I’d really like to be riding at 12.5 -13mph average in 2012 on the same course.

Useful input everyone, thanks. – Good tip about limiting the road bike to the inner ring.

Zone 2 is a happy place

zone-2 is best done for longer blocks, if you are after winter base miles to increase endurance then half an hour commute isn’t enough. no idea what miles i’m doing but i try to do 1-2-3 hr blocks.

Nearly all my ‘base’ training/zone 2 was done at 1hr at a time max last year (indoors).

it’s not about miles it’s about hours. zone-2 is best done for longer blocks, if you are after winter base miles to increase endurance then half an hour commute isn’t enough.

i was under the impression that base was cumulative & could be done on several 1 hour commutes a week.

happy to be corrected.

i was under the impression that base was cumulative & could be done on several 1 hour commutes a week.

happy to be corrected.

if you commute every day (and ride at the weekend) then there is no recovery (or active recovery) if you could take the commute hours and do them in longer blocks with a rest day in between then you would be better off. life doesn’t always allow that though 🙂

I’m only really spending much time in zone 2 on “recreational” road rides where I’m working but not hard. If I’m going out to push myself, zone 2 is as low as it gets and I keep myself somewhere in low-mid zone 3 for most of the ride. But usually that sort of ride is the once a week longer ride 40-50 miles so it’s not like I need to conserve energy for the way home, following day etc.

If you’ve been using Joe Friel’s books then you’ll be aware that he doesn’t advocate using MHR as a basis for establishing training zones – he works on LT (lactate threshold). He also shows you how to calculate it using a 30 min time trial – ride flat out for 30 mins & start the HRM for the final 20 mins (once your HR has settled in). Your average heart rate for the 20 mins will be very close to your LT.

+1 atlaz

+1 for LT its the way forward

I find it difficult to get a good training session in on the road except. Stopping for traffic and cold. Happy to put the telly on and spin away 🙂 yes the turbo is in the living room shocker 🙂

If you’ve been using Joe Friel’s books then you’ll be aware that he doesn’t advocate using MHR as a basis for establishing training zones – he works on LT (lactate threshold). He also shows you how to calculate it using a 30 min time trial – ride flat out for 30 mins & start the HRM for the final 20 mins (once your HR has settled in). Your average heart rate for the 20 mins will be very close to your LT.

Indeed – I intend to try that this weekend, although finding 30 minutes / 10 miles of flat isnt easy. There is a midway section of a 50k look I have which is a gradual rise to a gradual down back to the same point which is approx 10 miles so I’m going to use that as my measure.

I’ll then adjust the zones according to the scale in Joe’s book.

I’ve ordered Joe Friel’s book too and should be here today, so I’ll be doing the same thing. I’ll be using a turbo trainer though.

Need to fit in a 2/3 hour Z2 ride as well.

I’ve ordered Joe Friel’s book too and should be here today, so I’ll be doing the same thing. I’ll be using a turbo trainer though.

Need to fit in a 2/3 hour Z2 ride as well.

Once you’ve read it, I’d be interested in your opinion of “overtraining” and “overliving” version the “One to two rides per day” suggestion.

I think I’m struggle with the difference between amateur and pro in Joe’s book – I think the only flaw to the book (it is very very good IMO), is that is doesnt distinguish a line between those two points – its very grey.

I’d imagine if you’re not used to a high frequency the 2 rides a day wouldn’t be advisable.

I’ve used the book as a basis for a plan for the past few years and have felt the benefit, esecially the Z2 training in the winter.

I read that book this time last year and mapped out my season using the blocks of training weeks that were recommended.

Its an interesting and helpful book for those looking for a thorough introduction to creating a training plan.

Once I planned my sessions I stuck to the schedule roughly 80% of the time, but found I needed to simply get out and ride every so often to remind myself why I cycle.

I got myself tested in Jan this year and again last month, the increase in fitness, (in watts/kg at threshold), has been considerable, so it clearly works if you put the effort in.

I’ll make some adjustments based on my experiences and use the same formula again this year.

So I’m also trying to keep it aerobic at the moment. Got HRM but using the old if you can breath through your nose, you’re aerobic.

Thing is, one session on the turbo I’ll be 165ish bpm at the upper end of aerobic and then the next session I may be around 175bpm.

I know that HRM is not an exact science, but can ones HR be that different one session from the next?

Oh the HR monitor is a garmin… distances,times and average speed stay pretty constant.

Its also worth noting perceived effort as well as HR. The book talks about calculating the weeks effort and using that number as a gauge to make sure you’re training consistently, (Think it was perceived effort of each session time training time in minutes, but I’m not sure off hand)

10BPM is not much, but certainly enough to push over into the next zone. What you ate, drank, how you slept, if you’re stressed all potentially alter your HR. What you should do is reduce the effort until your HR falls into the desired zone, otherwise what the point of using an HR?

I hardly ever prescribe what the OP refers to as zone 2. IME it’s an utter waste of time for the vast majority of riders.

And the term ‘lactate threshold’ is bunkum.

I can recommend the polar on line traing diary. It can even create a training plan based on your HRM data. Its also free and givces you an indication of total training load to help you avoid over training. From my experience its a good guide

https://www.polarpersonaltrainer.com/index.ftl

helps to provide structure and motivation 🙂

I think short regualr mix of training is best in different zones. Improve that LT. Gym is also essential to strengthen arms, core, neck, back which you need if your aiming at enduro type distances.

Pawsy_Bear – Member
Gym is also essential to strengthen arms, core, neck, back which you need if your aiming at enduro type distances.

I use Kettlebells for that, a mixture of Swings for Cardio and core strenght plus as weights for everything else.

I hardly ever prescribe what the OP refers to as zone 2. IME it’s an utter waste of time for the vast majority of riders.

Do you mean most people don’t actually train in zone 2 at all and are actually not taxing the body enough to adapt/get stronger or do you mean most zone 2 training is a waste of time?