[Closed] Why are bicycles so expensive?

Volume I should think. 0/10

Volume I should think. 0/10??

Bicycles are produced in lower numbers than motorbikes (at an 'enthusiast' level, so ignoring the Honda cub and endless BSOs) so there are less economies of scale. The 0/10 was for the trolling attempt (which 99.9% of 'why are bikes so expensive?' threads are)

Ok then,don't think you are getting the point.no point in going on 🙄

probably mostly to do with volume. i'd give you 0/10.

It's not volumes of production, Im not sure the analysis compared to the motorbike industry is right, its just blatant profiteering.
I have a couple of shops and I am totally frustrated at the prices im being offered by the distributors, I now spend more with CRC than I do the likes of Madison/Fisher etc as CRC are usually cheaper and deliver FOC without minimum order quantities and they have better stock.

Of course it's volume. Supermarket BSOs aren't expensive. Ask Yamaha to only produce 1000 R1s, see what happens to the price...

Trade prices being a bit high hardly makes it profiteering. If you bought in the quantities that CRC et al do then you'd get better rates. Just look at the multiplier discount you get at Madison for 8 (say) XTR chainsets. Imagine you buy 100...

It's because people will pay. Stuff wouldn't be on sale for silly prices if there wasn't people willing to buy it despite the cost.

i wonder hoe many R1's get made compared to say how many specialized Enduros?
I dont know the volumes so I dont know, but i suspect the bike trade does get the benefit of mass production efficiencies.
And your trade analysis dosent make sense.
I can get a better price from CRC for one XTR chainset for example than I can for buying 8 from Madison.
I can imagine Madison buy more than 8 at a time.
Another example then, how come On-one can buy giro Helmets from India and then sell them in the UK cheaper than i can buy them from Madison.

One of the most ludicrous points that I never want to think about too carefully is how my local LBS could charge more for labour than your average major car mechanic, especially when there is a large wage disparity in the two workshops.

Economies of scale for sure, also if you start comparing like with like a bit more - look at a top end set of Ohlins motorcycle forks or a shock?

As for labour - your LBS charges how much per hour? franchised motorbike dealers can be £50 - £100 per hour

we have a few fixed charges for jobs and labour is about £20/hour
so not mental.

£20 a hour is very cheap

I think its reasonable.
we do have some fixed fees but some jobs can take a bit of time and we factor about two and a half hours for a basic service at £45.

Well it depends if you buy your R1 as a whole or bits by bits (in such case it will cost you 4 times the price).
I actually think motorcycle are more expensive than bike. A panigiale is about 20 grands and a MV augusta full on mag probably even more.
A scott aspen is barely 400€ mucho cheeper than a yam 125 cc

I assume you're comparing a new bicycle with a 2nd hand* motorbike. Hardly the same thing is it?

*or 3rd / 4th / 5th hand...

I always think it's worth comparing comparative performance in cars when talking about prices.

Generally speaking most of us a re riding what might be called "high performance" vehicles...if they had engines 😉

The comparator of, say an spesh enduro, is say, a Scoobie WRX.

A scott carbon scale race machine, more like a ferrari.

A Storck = Koenigsegg

456 = Ford Focus

Halfords BSO = Trabant.

Jeff Jones = Caterham Seven

The relationship of low volumes and specialised engineering stands for bike prices as for cars.

125ml of bicycle dot 4 oil £5.99.
125ml of car dot 4 oil £1.90

Same stuff, same bottle, different sticker, different market.

I buy a lot of my fluids etc from the auto distributors now anyway so trying to keep servicing prices down for lubes etc.

Volume is one big factor I think and also the absolute sticker price, its harder to make profits on low cost items easier on higher cost items. The other comparison is complete bikes vs components, we all know the story about how much a car would cost to build out of "spares"

to counter the dot 4 thing.

can of coke £1. 2 litres of coke in morrisons. £1.

volumes, packaging. volume etc.

and so on

i personally think bikes are cheap.

we all know the story about how much a car would cost to build out of "spares"

It was calculated that you could build a brand new Austin Healey 3000 from all the spares in the AH Spares catalogue...for about £250,000 😉

You can buy in to bikes at any price point to suit your needs and pocket, I am pretty sure that like all hobbies and interests we spend way above our actual capabilities and waaaay more than we spend on work related expenses where we all tend to be much more hard headed and cost concious.

If someone sells you a can of coke (take away)for £1 they are taking the ****. Also afraid the volume thing doesnt stack up, bikes are mass produced components hung on degrees of mass produced frames.

Globally Trek, Giant, etc have all the volume required to benefit from scale.

Busineses do not like to leave any money on the table and in the UK there is still a lot of diposable income especially whilst MTB remains the new golf.

I think itsalso supplychain and related to oligopolys/duopoliesthat exist.
If you are making a car then you have a very compact, squeezed supply chain,with multiple no namecompanies able to bid for the supply of individual parts (ok the likes of bosch escape this to some degree).
Now look at bikes...
The number of fingers in the pie as separate brands is massive:
suspension...well that will be fox or sram taking a cut.
drivetrain...erm well shimano or sram
Contact points has more players and that why saddles and bars and stems can be had cheaply.

We demand as users subcomponents from brands we trust. We pay this price for known quality and length of technical support (compare with CODA OR Specialized own brand stuff which will leave you high and dry for spares a few years down the road).
The price of drivetrains astounds me.....£300 or more for a friggin crankset. £300 for dura ace shifters....here is where the money is creamed off.

Overall though, bikes at normall levels are cheaper than ever....£500 buys more now than it did in 1992 when I started.

I agree with OP. Prices for mountain bike related stuff seems very expensive. Sometimes it's hard to keep it in perspective as the prices just seem to be the norm and what's expected. But when you look at £2500-£3000 for a decent brand full sus and £230 for a gravity dropper (just a spring and pulley system) and approaching £100 for a pair of flat pedals..well it seems hard to justify.
Same goes for all the additional stuff.Buy mountain bike branded lubes and tools and then compare to pretty much the same products at a car or DIY shop and see the price difference.

www.bikebiz.com/news/read/giant-and-merida-expect-chinese-sales-growth-this-year/012857

I think the volumes in the bicycle industry are comparable to the motorbike industry if this is anything to go by.

I think the supply chain has a lot to do with it.

Thats the reason that any company that adopts a more direct model (Canyon, On-One and the like) immediately looks like good value compared to other brands that are supporting a dealer network.

..when you look at £2500-£3000 for a decent brand full sus...

£1300:

[img] [/img]

bargain.

Yep, fair point. Having said that, how many people outside the MTB world would think £1300 for a bike is a bargain! Just goes to show how inflated the prices in general are.

There are ways to reduce costs - such as direct distribution methods. Honda makes bikes, Honda UK sells bikes...

But I would counter that there are weight issues with bikes that mean that technically they are extremely advanced. Motorbikes don't have to worry (too much) about 2 or 3kg here or there, or the suspension absorbing some power. On a bicycle, those issues make a huge difference.
That's not to say that those issues aren't important on a motorbike, but the weight saving and material optimising levels on bikes that we see, are, as Mr Stoner says, are Scooby WRX level, ish...

For instance... motorbike frames don't, in general, use butted tubing, for instance. Only the most boggo level bike would use all plain gauge tubes.

1. Cheap Credit (just look at houseprices) - the more money there is in the system, the more prices will increase
2. Bike to work schemes
3. Increased demand maybe?
4. Increased cost in general - oil, metal, transportation between countries)
5. More technical bikes - more R&D by the companies

It's probably a mix.

Also look at the materials used,

Mountainbike frame, 4130 CrMo is considdered cheep. IIRC Ducati used to (Pre 1199) make their super dooper top of the line limited editions from the same steel's you considdder mid-market on an MTB, the rest were comparable materials to BSO's.

And in reality a new enduro motor-bike is ~£6k, an enduro push-bike is £4k at the most (Ok, you could spend more, but most people would wince at spending half that), £2k for an engine? Sounds about right.

6. Marketing - we are believing the hype and want to spend the money.

And your trade analysis dosent make sense.
I can get a better price from CRC for one XTR chainset for example than I can for buying 8 from Madison.
I can imagine Madison buy more than 8 at a time.

You misunderstand. If you buy 8 of an item from Madison, you may get 10% off the basic trade price. Now imagine you buy 100 of them (as CRC will do), you'll get a significantly better price, so CRC are able to sell them on cheaper.

It's not that Madison are ripping you off, it's that CRC are taking advantage of selling higher volumes at a lower margin, and you are able to capitalise on that.

Or they're getting their parts elsewhere, which is obviously the case in some (but not all) circumstances.

Brant's point about technology is reasonable too.

Some vaguely interesting, slightly out of date stats [url= http://nbda.com/articles/industry-overview-2010-pg34.htm ]here[/url]. Suggests just under 2m >20" wheel bikes sold by IBDs in the US in 2010, at an average price of $524. Seems pretty reasonable to me. What's the average price of a new motorbike?

I agree with the OP as well.

While I can see how very niche manufacturers may have high production costs, I can't see how companies such as Specialized or even Santa Cruz don't benefit from economies of scale.

Has anyone else noticed that prices rose sharply after the start of the current recession?

Plus don't forget that usually for motorcycle things don't change every years. In the MTB industry, if one design has been here for more than a couple of year, people start to take the p1$$, say it's crap etc etc.
When it come to warranties, we are much better off than motorcycles. Break your frame on a YZ450 and ask for it to be replace under warranty, then look at the bloke in front of you laugh his ass out.
The supply chain is very inmportant as well. As njee said CRC probably don't go through the official channel of distribution. To sell a yamaha you have to be a yamaha employee from an official yamaha importer etc etc. Only brant and Cy on here sells the bikes they "make". So plenty of different things, but on the over all I don't think bike + bike parts are more expensive than motorcycles ones.

they charge more because they know We are stupid enough to fall for their marketing and lust for debt ... the sooner we stop buying at their (OBVIOUSLY SILLY PRICES) the sooner they will drop, i mean £5000 for a bluddy pushbike PERRRLEASE 🙄

i only buy anything new if its on sale, nearly all my stuff is second hand.

Only brant and Cy on here sells the bikes they "make". So plenty of different things, but on the over all I don't think bike + bike parts are more expensive than motorcycles ones.

it's terrifying the number of people i'm agreeing with on here now.

it's terrifying the number of people i'm agreeing with on here now.

I must say, I totally agree with Juan's post, and I never thought I'd say that 🙂

[i]Has anyone else noticed that prices rose sharply after the start of the current recession? [/i]

which was down to the 20%+ devaluation of our currency.

ok, so compare these two:

[img] [/img]

Sram x7 groupset, Recons with lockout, Avid Elixers - £500

[img] [/img]

same brakes, similar forks, similar groupset, only difference is maybe the frame - £1000

option 1 plus say an on-one frame = £700

It's bollock all to do with volume, its how the companies value their brand. You can put a sticker on a bike saying "hand built" but in reality it probably means "hand assembled". At the rate that people on here go through expensive components compared to mid priced components (dropper seatposts, very few people seem to have one that works according to this forum) it scares me that people are so easily led by super expensive tat.

But then every hobby seems to suffer from that

Yeah but a bike from Decathlon lacks trailcentre chic!

Cheap proper mountain bikes (£300-500) are probably as good value now as they have ever been.

Us lot that want all the trinkets are baubles are probably bearing the brunt of any price increases. But then thats a bit like complaining that Ferrari's and Aston Martins aren't the good value they used to be

RockRider are decathlon, which on a european scale probably make CRC look like an LBS. They'll be buying recon forks and x5 groupsets in quantities Ornage can only dream of. They also follow the model others mentioned above of selling their own stuff so only have to make a one profit margin*.

Orange are a bike company in Yorkshire, so yes I can believe that the P7 cost's them £1000 minus a sensible profit margin for themselves and the LBS that has to stock and sell it. There aren't a fleet of Ferrri's parked outside the factory anyway.

*The downside of this is your LBS is roudn the corner and can probably order a 5, Decathlon have only a few big wharehosue sized shops in a few big cities, so it'll cost you in time + petrol to buy from them too whereas Orange spend that time/money/petrol gettig the bike to a shop near you.

I find it amusing when cyclists who are used to paying enormous sums of money for bikes and components think the sport isn't expensive anymore, simply because they are used to seeing those prices when they look in websites/catalogues. That includes myself. Compare that to a layperson who doesn't ride - the reaction is always 'how much!?' followed by a gawp when you tell them how much your bike/components cost.

Yes, bikes can be cheap as chips but for anything performance-oriented, let's be honest, prices are simply absurd. A top-end road bike can cost £10k nowadays, which is similar to a top-end superbike. Even paying thousands for a pushbike, as most people on the forum have done, is expensive. A top-end complete XC race bike costs around £6k! Six thousands pounds. If you think that the likes of Giant/Trek/Specialized [i]really[/i] can't supply a mass-produced, made-in-Taiwan bike for less then you are simply deluding yourself.

Bikes are priced so highly because people are willing to pay that amount. It's that simple. Smart people work out the level at which to price the product that will make the most profit, factoring in the drop in demand at higher prices. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_maximization

I am not suggesting that we, as cyclists, should stop buying for this reason. Just that people need to be a little more aware as to the reasons for high prices, not attempting to justify them for reasons of 'advanced technology' or whatever other BS they come up with to justify the amount they spend.

Edit: if this interests you, have a look at the trade price of complete bikes vs the RRP, you'll get a real kick out of that...

they charge more because they know We are stupid enough to fall for their marketing and lust for debt ... the sooner we stop buying at their (OBVIOUSLY SILLY PRICES) the sooner they will drop, i mean £5000 for a bluddy pushbike PERRRLEASE

Crikey, is that how much a bike costs these days? That IS expensive.

RockRider are decathlon, which on a european scale probably make CRC look like an LBS. They'll be buying recon forks and x5 groupsets in quantities Ornage can only dream of.

+1

If you think that the likes of Giant/Trek/Specialized really can't supply a mass-produced, made-in-Taiwan bike for less then you are simply deluding yourself.

As has been said there's profits to be made. The amount of R&D and material design in top end bikes is a reasonable justification, and let's not forget the fact that the majority of parts will generally have to be bought in from 3rd party suppliers, all of whom have to make a profit too.

It's hardly just bikes though, is it?

I bought my other half a Skagen watch from John Lewis a couple of years ago - I think it cost £99.
While the woman was out the back of the store getting a box to put it in, she'd left the folder open with a list of all the watches/photo identifier/bar code etc. and the retail price of the watch I was buying was £99 but the cost price to John Lewis was £33! I saw that and have to admit to being tempted to walk out the shop and not buy it.

The amount of R&D and material design in top end bikes is a reasonable justification

I would dispute that, but of course, it's entirely subjective whether you think that the R&D justifies the price.

let's not forget the fact that the majority of parts will generally have to be bought in from 3rd party suppliers, all of whom have to make a profit too

That's true but that will be peanuts. Think about how little it costs an online store to buy in those parts before they mark them up for sale; now think about how little actual bike manufacturers must pay.

I bought my other half a Skagen watch from John Lewis a couple of years ago - I think it cost £99.
While the woman was out the back of the store getting a box to put it in, she'd left the folder open with a list of all the watches/photo identifier/bar code etc. and the retail price of the watch I was buying was £99 but the cost price to John Lewis was £33! I saw that and have to admit to being tempted to walk out the shop and not buy it.

There is a huge mark up on most things, but I consider this more justifiable when running a brick and mortar store - the costs involved are enormous. Hiring/buying the premises, decorating/branding it, paying all staff, etc. Hence I was careful to stick to online stores in my above ramble 🙂

A top-end road bike can cost £10k nowadays, which is similar to a top-end superbike.

compare like with like

Your "superbike" costing £10,000 is more like a boardman bike cost £1000

There is a huge mark up on most things, but I consider this more justifiable when running a brick and mortar store

That's a far far bigger mark up than bikes too.

hink about how little it costs an online store to buy in those parts before they mark them up for sale; now think about how little actual bike manufacturers must pay.

Not saying they'll pay as much as the shops, but it's another person in the chain who needs to make a profit. There's a lot of people taking a bite out of the final sale price, so to speak!

The amount of R&D and material design in top end bikes is a reasonable justification

I would dispute that, but of course, it's entirely subjective whether you think that the R&D justifies the price.

A typical high end carbon fibre frame will require up to 4 custom machined moulds for it's manufacture. These will range between an average of 4k and 20k depending on the quality of finish and complexity. Now in the development process it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe that say 3 different design iterations may occur in a single frameset. Now if the frame has 4 moulds at an average of 10k each that's 120K before you've got your finished frame. Once you got your finished frame design you'll have to have your 4 mould in for instance the 4 different sizes you want to manufacture the frame in. That's a further 160k, if you really want to mass produce the frame you may require multiple copies of each individual mould. So for instance for 1 high end CF frame you may require 280K of tooling in it's development and manufacture to be absorbed before you ever pay a single overhead in the manufacturing process. For a something like a santa cruz carbon fibre or say niner bike that will be manufactured in compartatively small production runs e.g. less than 10,000 per annum that's 300 on the cost of each frame just in tooling. This doesn't include for the cost of testing, sampling, materials, wages, painting, etc. used in the frames manufacture.

When you look at all of these types of expenses, typical production runs of high end bikes, the level of complexity in their, design, construction, component parts and the very high end materials used in them it's a wonder a lot of them aren't more expensive considering the number of hands they'll typically go through before they get to the consumer. People have become used to cheap high production volume tat in this modern age and have lost all understanding of the cost and complexities of manufacture. So when something seems expensive usually they come to the conclusion that someone somewhere is ripping them off. Comparisons with cheap cars or motorcycles are poor as whilst your average performance mtb may not actually look like it has a lot technological development in it, it's actually incredibly complex system that usually has much tighter constraints on it's design than the average car part on the average car. For instance a replacement shock for a ford focus is probably a quarter the price of a fox fork but the shock for the focus will be manufactured in volumes that fox could only dream of and they aren't even remotely as limited as fox in their design variables.

To be frank as a mechanical engineer I'm surprised bicycles are so cheap. Especially considering I've been doing this mountainbike lark for 20 odd years now and you're getting an awful lot more for you money now than you did in 1990.

My first mountain bike was a full rigid steel Marin which cost me nearly £500 in the early nineties.
Look at what you get now for the same money,especially if you can find something discounted,and its far more bike for the money.
Its a point of diminishing returns.
As you pay more so the benefit gradually gets smaller.How many people actually need a 3k full suss bike for UK trail centres.I ride my local black routes on a 12 year old Giant hardtail but see people on expensive bikes puffing and wheezing up the hills.
Expensive mountain bikes and components are now no more than just jewellery.

It's quite interesting reading the varied views on this thread.

Really the OP was basically talking about shiney new 2012 YM bikes you go into a shop and are sold at full SRP by the assistant, with all the overheads that such a "Shopping experience" incurs, being able to operate google can probably help a moderately savvy individual cut that price by ~1/3rd?

My own feeling is that generally pricing is not really that high for "performance bicycles" relative to the development costs, materials and production methods that go into making them especially when set against the volume that are actually sold and the distribution/retailer costs on top of that, we already know the direct retailing brands already mentioned address this last cost.

I also think that the cost of taking part in the sport can be as much or as little as the individual is able/willing to afford, you can still buy a new MTB for ~£300 most STWers would turn their nose up at it (Myself included) but they can be bought and will still get you up and down hills.

2nd hand you can get alot of machine for your money too.

The perception of all cycling kit having a high cost comes from some peoples habit of defaulting to new, top end kit without even considering stuff lower down the range/2nd hand, I mean how many of the chubby IT mongers rolling around Surrey with shiney XT kit would really notice the difference if you quietly substituted half those XT bits for SLX, Deore or even (Gulp) Alivio in some cases? One mans "basic" is another mans "bling"...

MTBs are only expensive if your not willing to compromise...

People spend what they can afford/justify on their chosen hobby/interest sports; Some MTBers will be OK with spending £3K on a bike but laugh their arse off at someone spending the same on a Stereo/Kayak/Train set... Everyone percieves Value in a different way...

Many of us are actually somewhere in the middle and willing to ride used kit and/or use lower spec' parts to effectively get the same riding experience...

Retailers/Bike companies will only charge what they know someone is willing to pay...

but laugh their arse off at someone spending the same on a Stereo/Kayak/Train set

Interesting you say that, my 'other' hobby is one of those (I'll let people guess which...) and the prices are pretty crazy due to the ridiculously small production numbers (think 500 world wide of an item). It's also pretty common for an item to be announced with a release date perhaps 3 months away, and then take 3 years + until it appears. This is accepted. Very little discounting anywhere because of the lack of availability, and stuff retains it's value amazingly, if not increases in pretty short periods of time.

All very different to the bike industry!

£3k for train set?! 😯

If someone sells you a can of coke [s](take away)for £1 [/s]they are [s]taking the[/s] [b]selling you[/b]****

FTFY

A top-end complete XC race bike costs around £6k! Six thousands pounds. If you think that the likes of Giant/Trek/Specialized really can't supply a mass-produced, made-in-Taiwan bike for less then you are simply deluding yourself.

They do though, don't they?
A quick Google brings up a Giant XTC Composite 29er 1 for £1700.

Aye, but the top spec one is far more expensive. And made in far smaller numbers. These are not inextricably linked...

But that's the same for pretty much anything you care to mention I think.
And while the 2 things you mention might not be inextricably linked, they're not exactly unconnected either.

Well yes, but people like to moan that a top end bike costs the same as a mid-range motorbike (or whatever)! Comparisons like that just don't really stack up, bikes are expensive, probably too much so, but its the top models where the prices are really mental, and that is partially driven by the small numbers in which they're made.

Yes you can buy a car for the same as an S-Works Epic now, but it's among the most advanced MTBs out there vs a proper bottom of the range car. Compare to Veyron...

Mountain bikes aren't cheap but I think they represent good value. The forces involved when you're bombing down trails are huge, yet these bikes and components (usually) handle everything thrown at them.

I once spent 6 weeks out in the Alps and all I had to replace were pads and tires, everything else just worked. Amazing pieces of engineering.

A long time ago I got a mate to help me change some of the struts and springs on my car. £40 a strut direct from a local manufacturer, £30 a spring through a car parts place. I also got two new front disc brake discs, top of the line for £30 each. I then got into MTBing and went to get a shock for my bike. Steel springs were £30 then. I got the spring in my hand for the bike and was shocked after lugging the car ones around. It took a bit to realise that if you take away the difference in cost to the manufacturer of the materials for the two different springs, the costs have to be pretty much similar for the rest of the business.

Complexity wise, bicycles seem quite simple compared with motorbikes so I might expect them to be much cheaper.

But the industries work very differently. The motor industry has far greater design integration at the top, and component standardisation underneath. Both of these effects drive costs down and quality up. Then factor in the amount of automation in motor manufacturing.

While we are happy to quote 6k for a new mountain bike as an example, it's far from typical. My most expensive bike is insured for £1800.

What about R&D? Car manufactures release a new model on 5-7 year interval. Where as bike manufacturers update their designs every year. An engine may be designed and used in multiple models also.

Also car suspension weighs a ton compared to an MTB fork, weight is only a consideration in high performance cars, and they cost a significant amount also.

Buyzz - actually most modern bicycles are as complex if not more so than motorcycles bar the engines,

Motorcycle stanchions will be chromed steel, MTB alloy with fancy coatings. Motorcycle suspension less adjustable and less linkages.

The biggest thing is weight - while weight is important to motorcycles its OK to add a couple of lb in weight to make production easier - you cannot do that on a bike. finally economies of scale - far far greater for motorcycles if yo think of the worldwide market

So, having read the comments I'm u-turning and I now think we should actually count ourselves lucky to be paying so little for our high-spec goodies. Thank you for being so kind spirited MTB companies 😀

They do though, don't they?
A quick Google brings up a Giant XTC Composite 29er 1 for £1700.

Midrange X7 gearing, bottom end Fox RL Evo forks, the cheapest brakes Avid make, own brand wheels and finishing kit. That sir, is one fine racing beast there!

The big companies are the only ones taking the mick in my eyes. The fact is, it's often cheaper to buy all the component parts and make a bike at shop prices is completely nuts.

£200-£500 for a hardtail frame made in limited amounts sounds like a good deal. The fact that On-One for example can undercut massive bike companies like Giant on value for money is completely broken, where is all the buying power going?

[url= http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/PBOOWHIPX9/on_one_carbon_whippet_x9_complete_bike ]http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/PBOOWHIPX9/on_one_carbon_whippet_x9_complete_bike[/url]

Better groupset across the board, better brakes, lighter wheels, and a decent fork, for £200 less than the biggest bike company in the world?

just for interest according to the bible of definitive facts (wiki) re scale of output

in 2002 Giant made just under 5m bikes in one year.. (imagine it is more now?)

Nissan in 2010 made just over 4m vehicles.

what would be interesting would be the see what the average retail cost per unit of the two was - I image that the bikes would be much lower than the vehicles.

as a further aside brompton made nearly 30 thousand bikes last year.

http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/PBOOWHIPX9/on_one_carbon_whippet_x9_complete_bike

Better groupset across the board, better brakes, lighter wheels, and a decent fork, for £200 less than the biggest bike company in the world?

It is a fair point but probably because people like on-one

a. benefited from the manufacturing tech pioneered/advanced by the big companies (cycle and otherwise)
b. don't have a massive range, worldwide coverage, full on marketing etc like the big companies do

Midrange X7 gearing, bottom end Fox RL Evo forks, the cheapest brakes Avid make, own brand wheels and finishing kit. That sir, is one fine racing beast there!

It's a mass-produced, made-in-Taiwan bike, which Alejandro seemed to be suggesting doesn't exist. No, it's not as good as a top line XC racing bike for £6K. But that's the point. Not everything can be the same price. But you can get a pretty damn good, mass produced bike for an awful lot less than the £6K halo bikes Giant and all the rest of them make.

Indeed, but where is the money going? Picking a normal model with no 29er tax:

[url= http://www.winstanleysbikes.co.uk/product/46965/Giant_XtC_1_2012_Bike ]XTC 1[/url]

So we've got:

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/MTB++Parts/Transmission++Gears/Groupsets+-+MTB/Deore+10+Speed+Disc+Brake+Groupset_DEORE-GROUP-10.htm ]Deore groupset + brakes - £250[/url]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/Frame++Forks/Forks++Shocks/Rockshox+Suspension+Forks/Rockshox+Recon+Gold+TK+Forks+-+Disc++V-Brake_RS-RECON-GOLD-TK.htm ]Gold Recons - £200[/url]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/Wheels/Mountain+Bike+Wheels/Factory+Mountain+Bike+Wheels/Shimano+MT15+Wheels+-+Black+-+Pair_2176.htm ]Some cheap wheels (which I bet are better than the Giants) - £90[/url]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/Tyres++Tubes/Tyres++Tubes+MTB/Schwalbe+Tyres/Schwalbe+Tyre+Sale_NOBBY-NIC-SALE.htm ]Expensive Schwalbe Tyres - £50[/url]

So we're up to £590 buying from Merlin. Could easily chuck in a much more expensive 853 Rock Lobster frame, Thomson finishing kit and a Fizik saddle, and I've managed to undercut the biggest bike company in the world from one shop in about 10 minutes.

Can't see why that bike shouldn't sell for £600 or something, it would have about 3 years ago.

Waht about the rest of the bike?

Bars, Stem, headset, seatpost, saddle, pedals, grips, etcetc

It's a mass-produced, made-in-Taiwan bike, which Alejandro seemed to be suggesting doesn't exist. No, it's not as good as a top line XC racing bike for £6K

No, he said the top ones cost £6k, but much less to make. Clearly you get diminishing returns, like pretty much everything in retail. I don't think pointing at the top end is the best way to get the point across though, if anything the bottom end seems more broken.

rootes1 - Member

just for interest according to the bible of definitive facts (wiki) re scale of output

in 2002 Giant made just under 5m bikes in one year.. (imagine it is more now?)

Nissan in 2010 made just over 4m vehicles.

The relevant question is not how many bikes/cars either manufacturer made. Rather what % of Giant's production was high end high performance bikes and what was BSOs. Similarly how many performance cars did nissan make? Sure you can buy a Nissan micra for **** all but how much does a GTR cost comparatively? And what percentage of the micra's parts are so homogenous that they're actually used on 10/15/20+million cars per annum?

Waht about the rest of the bike?

Bars, Stem, headset, seatpost, saddle, pedals, grips, etcetc

I dunno, lets keep going then, not going to have a hard time getting comparable bits to plastic Giant pedals and 300 gram riser bars for the remaining £240 after the frame 🙂

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/Frame++Forks/Frames+-+MTB/Merlin++Rock+Lobster+Frames/Rock+Lobster+Tig+Team+853+Frame_697.htm ]Frame[/url]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/MTB++Parts/Bars++Stems/Handlebars+-+Riser/Easton+EA30+Riser+Bar_460.htm ]EA30 risers[/url]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/MTB++Parts/Saddles++Posts/Seatposts/Easton+EA30+Seatpost_1388.htm ]EA30 seatpost for no other reason than it matches[/url]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/MTB++Parts/Bars++Stems/Handlebar+Stems/Easton+EA30+Stem_1389.htm ]EA30 stem, there's cheaper about but I can't see us hitting the limit[/url]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/MTB++Parts/MTB+Accessories/Headsets/Cane+Creek+S3+Headset_1355.htm ]Cane Creek headset[/url]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/MTB++Parts/Saddles++Posts/Seatpost+Collars/list.htm ]Seatpost Collar[/url]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/MTB++Parts/MTB+Accessories/Cables/Shimano+SIS+Outer+Gear+Casing+_2446.htm ]Outer cables x 2 meters?[/url]

[url= http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/Bike+Shop/MTB++Parts/MTB+Accessories/Cables/Shimano+MTB++Road+Stainless+Inner+Gear+Wire_2374.htm ]Inners x 2[/url]

£130 left to pick my saddle, grips and pedals of choice. Slightly crazy, no? Basically, you can swap the frame for anything around £300 and match Giant or Specialized for buying power. The Specialized 29ers are event more stupid:

[url= http://www.evanscycles.com/products/specialized/carve-comp-29er-2012-mountain-bike-ec030141 ]http://www.evanscycles.com/products/specialized/carve-comp-29er-2012-mountain-bike-ec030141[/url]

Must be like a £500 frame, made out of their cheapest aluminium. Forks so low they had to wait for this year for them to even be invented, on a £1000 bike?!

See I now concur for the second time with Brant and Njee... I am starting to believe this thread sucks 😀

"bar the engines"

Yes I can see your point TJ and the one about being cheaper because there isn't so much fuss about weight reduction - making stuff small and light is very expensive*. But what about the cost of those high-performance engines - there really isn't anything to compare £ with on a bicycle?

rootes1 - Member

It is a fair point but probably because people like on-one

a. benefited from the manufacturing tech pioneered/advanced by the big companies (cycle and otherwise)
b. don't have a massive range, worldwide coverage, full on marketing etc like the big companies do