Today's "road tax" conversation

{WARNING: Very long post. A thread in itself. But may amuse some}

A some months ago I posted a YouTube comment in response to the usual bleating about cyclists “not paying road tax”.

No one in the UK pays “Road Tax”. There is no such thing. It is “Car Tax” (aka VED). Asking why bicycles don’t pay Car Tax yields a rather obvious answer. You might as well ask why non-smokers? don’t pay cigarette tax.

Bear in mind that Car Tax is not specially set aside for roads. Roads are paid for by local councils, who are mainly funded by the council tax we all pay.

Also there over 2 million cars on the road that don’t pay car tax either, as they have Band A emissions or are exempt.

Pretty standard rebuttal really (Carlton would be proud[/url]), but it got voted up and became the Most Popular Comment on that video.

So the other day someone called chew1047 messaged me on YouTube, taking issue with my comment and our subsequent conversation progressed over the next few days. It was like something on here only slightly less coherent.

Here it is in full. Hopefully some of my arguments may be useful to anyone engaging in similar pointless internet debate.

See how many straw man and ad hominem attacks you can count debating fans:

From chew1047:

Road Tax is just a name for V.E.D Vehicle Excise Duty, some government official websites sill call Road Tax, why do cyclists find this so difficult to understand ?.
Council tax only pays for road repairs, who do you think pays for road building ?.
There maybe over 2 million cars with no Road Tax or V.E.D. but they are breaking the law, cyclists just get away with it.

From GrahamStw:

Who do YOU think pays for road building?? It comes from general taxation that we all pay, the same as everything else.
Car Tax is NOT a tax on using the road, it’s a tax on a car. And it is NOT put in a special pot (hypothecated) for spending on the road. They stopped doing that in 1937.
The ~2 million cars that don’t pay Car Tax are NOT breaking the law, they are Band A or exempt so they don’t have to pay.
And cyclists don’t “get away with it” – we just don’t pay Car Tax for a bicycle. Just like you don’t pay Alcohol Duty on a lemonade.
Why is this so difficult for some motorists to understand?

From chew1047:

What planet are you from ?, you call it “car tax” but when motorist call it “road tax” you start banging on about “no such thing as road tax, blar blar blar” so lets call it by its proper name V.E.D. which you’ll find a good chunk of goes to road building and widening, tunnel construction, bridge building,and so on, the rest of it tops that general taxation pot you talk about, and Ive not even started on fuel duty, parking fees etc etc, you should try doing some research, that way you don’t look so stupid.

From GrahamStw:

> lets call it by its proper name V.E.D.

Fine by me. The full name is Graduated Motor Vehicle Excise Duty if you want to be precise. The DVLA call it “Car Tax” or “Vehicle Tax” for short, but “VED” will do nicely.

> “you’ll find a good chunk of goes to road building and widening, tunnel construction, bridge building,and so on, the rest of it tops that general taxation pot you talk about”

Nope. That’s not the way it works. It is not a hypothecated tax. Revenue from VED goes straight into the general taxation pot along with all the other taxes which we pay.

The RAC Foundation quote the total revenue from VED as £5.4 billion a year.
Annual spending on roads is around £9 billion.
If VED was a tax to pay for roads then we’d need to pay almost double what we pay now to cover the bill.
http://www.racfoundation.org/faq/Economics

Incidentally, The London School of Economics estimates that cycling is worth £3 billion a year to the UK economy.
But the UK gov spending on cycling facilities is just 70p a year per cyclist!
http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2011/08/cycling.aspx

Cyclists more than pay their way!

And don’t forget of course, most adult cyclists also own a car. (In fact they are statistically MORE likely to own a car than non-cycling adults).

So I pay a decent whack of VED on my car and then I cycle to work twice a week. If anything surely I’m due a 40% rebate?

> “you should try doing some research, that way you don’t look so stupid.”

Trust me – I’ve done LOTS of research on this!

Hence why I can tell you that “road tax” stopped being a ringfenced special tax for building roads around 1937.

Winston Churchill (a clever man) orchestrated this because he was worried that a ringfenced tax would lead motorists to think that they owned the road and were more entitled to it than cyclists or pedestrians:

“”Entertainments may be taxed; public houses may be taxed; racehorses may be taxed…and the yield devoted to the general revenue. But motorists are to be privileged for all time to have the whole yield of the tax on motors devoted to roads? Obviously this is all nonsense…Such contentions are absurd, and constitute…an outrage upon the sovereignty of Parliament and upon common sense.” — Churchill, 1925

—

Here’s a thought that may clarify things:

“Should unemployed people be allowed to drive on the roads?”

Let’s say unemployed Joe Bloggs pays £130 VED a year for his Band F car. Great.

Then there’s me, on my bike, which I don’t need to pay VED for. But then I do pay £10,000+ in income tax and NI a year, thus paying for a shitload more roads than Joe Bloggs.

So clearly he has no right to be on the roads?

No. That’s daft. Obviously he does. Because we all pay for the roads. That’s how the system works.

From chew1047:

The motorist pays in total £48 billion a year in taxes, i think that more than covers the £9 billion spent on road building,
Fact-1, It costs me an arm & leg to put my car and motorbikes on the road, yet i can only drive/ride one at a time
Fact-2, I could have 50 pushbike, the cost=£0.
Try cutting out all the red tape bull shit and using basic mathematics, its much easier.

From GrahamStw:

> “The motorist pays in total £48 billion a year in taxes, i think that more than covers the £9 billion spent on road building”

Right, so you don’t just want cyclists to pay Car Tax for bicycles then?

You also want them to pay Petrol Tax, Motorway Tolls, Congestion Charge, Company Car Tax and all the other guff that makes up that £48 billion?

I see.

Well if you’re looking at external revenue sources to come up with £48 billion, then you also need to consider the external costs too.

Cars cost the taxpayer a lot more than just the £9 billion for building roads:

For a start there are 203,000 people injured or killed on the road every year. That’s a lot of NHS, Police and Fire crew time to pay for, plus the on-going costs in benefits and aid for those seriously injured.

Then there are on-going medical costs from rising obesity and falling fitness levels in the population due to everyone driving instead of walking and cycling as they would have done not so long ago.

Then there is the lower air quality causing more medical costs for asthma and pollution related illnesses, plus the fines from failing to meet our CO2 reduction targets.

By now I expect you’re dismissing this line of argument as hippy waffle, so here is a quote from an Institute of Fiscal Studies report commissioned by the RAC Foundation (not well known hippies or cyclists):

“Road use generates costs which are borne by wider society instead of the motorist. These ‘externalities’ mean that in the absence of taxation or pricing, there is an inefficiently high level of road use”
— http://www.racfoundation.org/assets/rac_foundation/content/downloadables/fuel%20for%20thought%20-%20ifs%20observation%20piece.pdf

And here is another quote from a government advisory group called Sustainable Development Commission, whose report on “Fairness in a Car-dependent Society” concluded:

“it would appear that the overall costs imposed on society by motoring outweigh the revenues obtained from motorists, probably very substantially.”

They also have full cost-benefit analysis and breakdowns of all the figures if you’re that interested.
http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/data/files/publications/fairness_car_dependant.pdf

> “Fact-2, I could have 50 pushbike, the cost=£0.”

That’s right. Or you could walk. Or take the bus. Or train. Isn’t it nice to have choices? Makes you wonder why anyone bothers with the incredible expense of driving really.

From chew1047:

That’s just £48 billion in taxes, you seem to be conveniently forgetting what the Automotive industry is worth to the UK,
You like banging out quotes, let me bang out some facts.
More than 40 companies manufacture vehicles in the UK,
Automotive manufacturing provides 135,000 direct jobs and contributes some £10 billion value-added to the UK economy,
UK offers a highly sophisticated retail and service/ maintenance sector, which generated some £22 billion value added to the UK economy. It comprises some 66,000 businesses employing 518,000 people.
In 2011, 1.36 million cars and 120,000 commercial vehicles were produced in the UK. Of these, more than 83% of the cars and 59% of the commercial vehicles were exported.
There are around 2,200 component manufacturers in the UK, ranging from the global players to small and medium-sized businesses. Together they contribute £4 billion added value and employ around 70,000 people.
The components sector exports over £5 billion worth of goods annually,
The UK is also a centre for design engineering where around 7,500 people are employed, generating a turnover of some £650 million,
I suppose we could throw all that away, get the pushbikes out and live off the land, it must be nice in your world.

From GrahamStw:

I’m really not sure what your point is now?

Yes, the automotive industry is massive. We both know this.
That’s why it has such massive lobbying power over government.

What has that got to do with whether “road tax” exists or not?

Or whether cyclists should be made to pay a CO2 emissions-based Car Tax that 2 million cars don’t even have to pay?

Especially given that, as I said earlier, adult cyclists are statistically MORE likely to have cars than non-cyclists, so they have already contributed to those automotive industry figures in the same way as every other car driver.

> “I suppose we could throw all that away, get the pushbikes out and live off the land, it must be nice in your world.”

I’ve never suggested anything like that. I’d just like to be able to legally share the road without idiots in cars trying to deliberately knock me off my bike whilst screaming “Pay road tax you ****”.

Is that too much to ask?

From chew1047:

“I’m really not sure what your point is now”
Have you forgotten saying things like “Cars cost the taxpayer a lot more than just the £9 billion for building roads:
and “it would appear that the overall costs imposed on society by motoring outweigh the revenues obtained from motorists, probably very substantially.”

I’m just replying to your silly quotes, i could of asked you a long time ago “What has that got to do with whether “road tax” exists or not?”

and when did i say “cyclists should be made to pay a CO2 emissions-based Car Tax”

…………………..TYPCAL CYCLIST……………….

From GrahamStw:

Ahhhh, I see.. so you’re claiming that because we get business tax revenues from the huge automotive industry that makes it okay that motorists are subsidised by the taxpayer?

I like it. Can we expand that thinking into other areas?

The UK has a multi-billion pound alcohol industry, yet drinkers are STILL expected to pay full price for booze AND pay tax on it!

Shocking!

Following your logic it’s clear that taxpayers should in fact be subsidising the cost of booze. And of course tee-totallers should be made to pay their share by making them pay Alcohol Duty on their soft drinks.

> when did i say “cyclists should be made to pay a CO2 emissions-based Car Tax”

I rather thought your entire argument was that cyclists should pay VED?

If you now agree that there is no such thing as “road tax” and that cyclists shouldn’t have to pay VED then I think we’re probably done.

Thanks.

> …………………..TYPCAL CYCLIST……………….

Yep. That’s me 🙂

clubber likes this post.

Brilliant, good work sir.

I didn’t read it all, but it’s worth pointing out to the ‘cyclist should pay road tax’ brigade, that even if did ‘pay’ for road tax (or whatever you call it) they would be zero rated anyway, just like any other low emission vehicle.

Apart from anything, else, as a cylist, I DO pay tax in various different forms.

You forgot the bit where you agree with him wholeheartedly, then point out that V.E.D is based upon emissions, and since you have none on your bike, the V.E.D will still be £0.

Edit: Beaten to it!

Awesome. What a weapon.

The motorist pays in total £48 billion a year in taxes, i think that more than covers the £9 billion spent on road building,

Which motorist? Who ever it is, A thanks, B, you got screwed.

Fact-1, It costs me an arm & leg to put my car and motorbikes on the road,

That must make riding the motorbikes quite difficult, especially if they were both from the same side…

actually that depressed me- whatever you say he wont change his beliefs, nor will the people who liked his post in the 1st place

I’m impressed by your patience 🙂

A some months ago I posted a YouTube comment

Oh dear god.

Props for taking time to kick balls through his continually moving goal posts.
I like the reply given by another cyclist on the challenge of not paying to use the road:
“No, nor do I pay for sex.”
<pauses & looks at passenger>
“Looks like I’m two for two.”

Love the finale. Right, if you no longer agree with yourself, we’re done. Sweet.

All this has got me thinking if a Prius gets a tax disc and doesn’t pay VED can we have one too*

*I don’t much fancy a number plate, might get nicked going through red lights…

“Looks like I’m two for two.”

I like that, now does anyone have any idea how I get half chewed apple out of my keyboard…

[/url]

actually that depressed me- whatever you say he wont change his beliefs, nor will the people who liked his post in the 1st place

Yeah – but it’s fun trying. 😈

I’m impressed by your patience

This place is excellent training 😀

All this has got me thinking if a Prius gets a tax disc and doesn’t pay VED can we have one too

According to Carlton[/url] “The cost of a tax disc is £1.47 for those bought at a Post Office, and 95p for those bought online. But let’s keep it simple and say the cost to print, distribute and sell each car tax disc is a quid. There are about 2 million vehicles which don’t pay car tax. That’s two million quid of subsidy to get tax discs to those who don’t pay for them.”

So basically if we did all have free tax discs then motorists would have to pay more Car Tax to cover the cost. 😀

You missed a bit of an open goal here –

“you’ll find a good chunk of goes to road building and widening,

roads don’t get widened to accomodate cyclists AFAIK
not even for this dude

Man don’t post my profile picture here.

must have been an android user…

not even for this dude

His cyclist airbag seems to have deployed.

I think you may be wasting your time judging from his previous comments, but thanks for trying!…

http://www.youtube.com/user/chew1047/feed

Personally, as an MTBer, I’d like to have some roads have nothing spent on them so they degenerate into rocky tracks.. 🙂

I think you may be wasting your time judging from his previous comments, but thanks for trying!…

Yeah, he does seem to have an issue with cyclists.
Not to mention being offensively homophobic and racist. 🙁

His baggies are a bit tight.

Great post I take my hat of to you sir.

I wonder if he wets the bed?

He’s already displaying an interest in fire, cruelty to animals (check his videos), antisocial behavior, racist & homophobic ranting. Its the only trait of a serial killer he’s missing!

But worst of all, his spelling is awful.

Its the only trait of a serial killer he’s missing!

😯 Great!

Chances of me sleeping soundly tonight…

Fact-1, It costs me an arm & leg to put my car and motorbikes on the road, yet i can only drive/ride one at a time

Err does that not apply to pretty much all forms of transport?

But well done for such a rational and reasonable argument. Have you tried 419baiter[/url] for some more amusement?

Well done , razor sharp op.

Heres some more ammo for the next encounter.

7000 per year deed !

Graham, chapeau, sir! A Stirling and valiant effort, especially in the face of such overwhelming cock-ness. I salute you.

Skillz Graham. 😀

Tres asmusement Rodders, tres amusement. 😀

Good work, sir.

Youtube comments are almost universally depressing. I try to avoid them, personally.

Well played GrahamS, truly well played. That guy seems like a complete **** ****. I admire your patience.

Err does that not apply to pretty much all forms of transport?

Roller skates.

I wish there was a like buttons on here sometimes. 😀

Classis. Thanks Graham S. 😆
As for chewy……frightening people like that exist.

I love how he criticises your use of ‘quotes’ and then posts some ‘facts’ of his own. What a douche!

This is like an episode of Adum Buxton’s bug.

Honestly don’t know how you can be arsed.