I might well be asking for the moon here, but I’ve been given wifely permission to try to squeeze in an additional snowboard holiday this year with a mate.

We’re reasonably experienced piste riders (15 years+, but only one or two weeks a year) and the past couple of years we’ve been dabbling with off-piste lite (i.e. ducking the rope, but staying near the piste)

Is there anywhere that we could do a short break (long weekend, mid-week, maybe up to a week) where we could do either some guided off-piste or get some proper off-piste instruction? Ideally cheap and suitable for fat lads.

I looked at the McNab camps (mentioned here before). He has a 3 Day Off piste Clinic which sounds almost right, but it was fully booked long ago.

Any thoughts from the hive mind?

you could talk to Stevo at the White Room about doing part of the backcountry week coming up:

http://www.whiteroomchalet.com/win_backcountry_weeks.htm

short notice now though, though there are places. I’ll be there and last year it was great despite lack of snow.

Thanks. Looks nice b17, but probably fails the fat lad requirement with this statement:

There will almost certainly be some hiking or skinning required to reach the best runs. These will typically be short, but could be as much as 1 hour or possibly more. You will therefore need to have a certain level of fitness.

Seriously, we’re both unfit biffers. An hour+ hike on snow shoes would likely kill us. 😯

would probably be cheaper to find somewhere cheap to stay and hire a guide yourself….though I would find recommendations for a guide as we have had some pretty ropey off piste guides before. I will be watching this thread though as I am looking to book my other half a snowboarding weekend for his birthday (without me, due to the kids).

By the way off-piste boarding is knackering. It’ll probably kill you hike or no hike. Seriously, you can’t be that much of a fat biffer, surely?

If you don’t have to hike to get to it, it’ll be tracked out.

Remember too that “off-piste” does not mean “bottomless powder”. You might be lucky and hit powder, or you might find boilerplate or breakable crust or tracked out refrozen crud…

Obviously I can’t assess your fitness over the internet Graham, so I’ll have to take your word for it.

Hard to know what the group is like this time round. Last year I did it at about 100kg before gear, although my fitness is always reasonable (lighter and fitter this year so looking forward to it!). One guy in the group was prob about 120 kg and with low fitness just coming back from injury. He did have a harder time of it on the longer hikes and by the end of the long descents.

The proper backcountry routes run into several km of ungroomed snow.

Most of the group was knackered by the end of the week and skipped the final afternoon. I’d cunningly spent the week before out there getting ‘acclimatised’ which helped a lot I think.

Seriously, you can’t be that much of a fat biffer, surely?

Sixteen stone of beer, pies and more recently, Christmas Pud. 😀
Certified exercise-free (bar the odd bike commute).

We’ve had three holidays in Canada so we’ve done a bit of off-piste lite there, including deep untracked powder.

We’ve hiked for good snow, but rarely more than about 15 minutes. We did do a guided tour in Fernie where we spent about an hour traversing across the mountain on a hare track, but that was “less enjoyable”. 😉

Obviously I can’t assess your fitness over the internet Graham

I could send you photos – but they wouldn’t be pretty 😀

I can confirm GrahamS is fat and unfit. It takes one to know one see.

Happy New Year!

I do think Stevo’s plan was to have two groups allowing differences in level/fitness (or ski vs board). I’m not sure how many are signed up at the mo though, what with the snow coming (seemingly) late and people maybe not booking things that rely so heavily on a decent bit of it.

If it snows right before the start of the week there may not be much need for hiking at all! (hopefully!)

LOL. Cheers suthy 😀

You will not do any better than contacting the guys at http://www.pleisure.co.uk
They are based in Courchevel and will make your holiday fit them so it wont matter when you turn up or when you want to leave. Your food and accommodation will be brill and quite reasonable. Have fun !

you won’t get a better deal than the whiteroom one. Mcnab is double that for his courses…

with this years snow doubt you will have to hike far, and anyway thats part of the fun…

once you have done this course you will want to get rid of that belly asap…will change your outlook on riding for ever and you will be actively avoiding pistes. 8)

Hmm.. anyone had any dealing with these guys:

http://www.eskimo-freeride.com ?

Eskimo Freeride: based on Shar-planina / Shar mountain in Macedonia.

Used these in Val for 3 days last week and it was great.

Progression Ski

edited to add, they will also provide all the kit if you don’t have it.

Nice bazzer. Did you do one of their off-piste clinics?

One of my mates organised it and 5 of us did three afternoons. It was a mix of guiding and some tips to improve.

We had a guide called William and he was excellent, I had great time.

If you can fill a group I would suggest calling them and asking what options you have. I think they are pretty flexible.

I highly advise you to try and get fitter. It will be a much more enjoyable experience.

Noted RHS, but, (like Popeye) I yam what I yam.

I’ll put in a few commuting miles between now and then (I’m thinking March) but yes, my base fitness if pretty pitiful at the mo.

Yep RHS has a point I have ridden less this year and I found it much harder than usual.

GrahamS – You’ve been to Fernie before right?

I know it doesn’t fit with your criteria of short & cheap but if you ever head that way again, have a look at ‘Fernie Wilderness Adventures’:

http://www.fernieadventures.com/

Their cat-skiing is fantastic! Unlike Heli-drops they aren’t at the mercy of the weather; there’s no hiking involved; you get ‘fresh tracks’ every run; you don’t have to carry a heavy pack with backcountry gear in it and you can hire transceivers etc (the day starts with a ‘refresher’ using them as you can never practice ‘too much’)

Other cat-ski outfits are available …

Unfortunately, I can’t think of anything similar closer to the UK – pretty much everything in Europe will involve hiking for a few hours (including McNab’s 3 day off-piste clinic!!). Like others have said fitness is pretty important in making the whole backcountry touring experience enjoyable.

McNab claims

“100% capacity of super progressive riding, excellent high mountain and backcountry adventure and seriously some of the best snow and lines I have ever ridden,”

Giver the number of days with avalanche risk 3+, the number of days with verglas and the number of days you wouldn’t send a dog out his blurb is nonsense. Whatever you do on a board/skis is dependant on weather and snow conditions and IME there are only a few days a year with conditions like his site photos show. The idea that you can book a course weeks in advance and he can guarantee his programme is laughable.

I spent 16 days up the hill over Christmas:

Day 1 lifts shut, blizzard. I watched TV
Day 2 one lift open in the afternoon, heavy snow. I X-C skied
Day 3 low lifts open, top lifts closed due to avalanche. I skinned up the pistes and back down the edges.
Day 4 everything open, rain. Heavy powder high up and very heavy transformed snow low down. I X-C skied on soggy snow
Day 5 more rain, One skin up, grotty descent and TV
Day 6 sun and everything open. I did three turns off-piste and retreated to groomed snow as the off-piste was rutted, churned snow that had frozen solid.
Days 7-16 more of the same. I used my board just once.

In 16 days there wasn’t one day when the lifts gave access to the kind of fresh powder McNab shows. There will be days like that but the idea of “100% capacity of super progressive riding” is nonsense.

Try Tina and Francky Moranval at bandofboarders.net and/or Didi Haase at Snowlegends in La Grave.

I’ve ridden with all 3 (and couple of different guides of Didi’s) and they’re all fantastic in slightly different ways. Didi’s guides are qualified guides, so they can take you on glaciated itineraries, Tina and Francky are instructors, and are good with technique, allbeit in a french style! they’ve all got plenty of stories, Didi especially.

Amazing area, loooong runs – 2150m top to bottom. It’s all off piste at La Grave, bar a couple of blues on the Glacier at the very top. Great place to try out different boards, especially swallowtails. I rode a 185 swallowtail for 9 days and it was a really great experience, amazing in powder, obviously, surprisingly easy to handle, even in tight stuff, and rewards a smooth technique, so getting back on your regular board afterwards, you really notice the difference it’s made to your riding.

Sort your own accomodation (dorm style hostel to fancy hotels available) join groups with Tina, Francky and Didi, depending on conditions and what you fancy.

Second digby’s recommendation of Fernie W.A. Great set-up, rest on the way back up, great skiing, especially if you like trees!

And getting fitter is going to make such a difference to how much you enjoy it. I’d really do as much as you can. It takes a fair bit out of you, and being stronger for longer means you’ll ride harder, learn more, fall less, enjoy it more. Once you get tuckered out and start making silly mistakes, it can be a sharp downward spiral of falling, getting cold and wet, struggling to get up in deep snow, getting more knackered more quickly, falling more, enjoying less…

I probably hiked for about 20 minutes in the 9 days, and I could have avoided even that. I was still absolutely toasted after riding hard all day, though!

Enjoy whatever you do, though!

GrahamS – You’ve been to Fernie before right?

I know it doesn’t fit with your criteria of short & cheap but if you ever head that way again, have a look at ‘Fernie Wilderness Adventures’:

Yep – we seriously considered it while we were there, but the weather wasn’t up to it. Next time!

Other cat-ski outfits are available …
Unfortunately, I can’t think of anything similar closer to the UK

Yeah the only one we have found is these http://www.eskimo-freeride.com/ guys operating in Macedonia. The only cat skiing in Europe apparently.

Bit of a bugger to get to though. WizzAir do have cheap no frills flights from Luton. Then it is a 100 euro taxi ride from Skopje airport.

Gets a decent write up here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/nov/16/catskiing-skiing-macedonia

Enjoy whatever you do, though!

Cheers ned. Yeah fitness is clearly a bit of an issue. No handy cake stops when your properly off-piste 😀

For now I’m looking to see if I can find any resorts with intro to off-piste style lessons/tours – reckon we can probably hack one of those easily enough.

In 16 days there wasn’t one day when the lifts gave access to the kind of fresh powder McNab shows.

I did a Backcountry splitboard trip with Neil last March. I’ve never seen the valley floor in Chamonix so green and free of snow at that time of year. The arete at the start of the Vallee Blanche was closed because conditions were so poor.

However we managed to get fresh tracks every day of the five day course – although this did mean three trips through the tunnel to Italy & a couple of day with long hours of hiking/skinning-up.

Sometimes you have to work pretty hard for a couple of powder turns but for me the reason to go with a guide is becuase they have the local knowledge and experience to find the goods. But anyway – just being up in the hills brings a smile to my face! 🙂

Sorry to hear your 16 day Christmas trip was so grim Edukator – I guess the early season conditions in the Alps were pretty exceptional this year. Guess that’s the luck of the draw sometimes.

Yeah the only one we have found is these http://www.eskimo-freeride.com/ guys operating in Macedonia. The only cat skiing in Europe apparently.

Bit of a bugger to get to though. WizzAir do have cheap no frills flights from Luton. Then it is a 100 euro taxi ride from Skopje airport.

Gets a decent write up here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/nov/16/catskiing-skiing-macedonia

About 10 years ago there used to be one in Valle D’Aosta forgotten the name of the village it was in but it wasn’t far from Aosta it’s self.

It was quite a small operation and I went with an Italian guide called Patrick Raspo who used to ride with the old school legend Peter Bauer. Not sure if it’s still going.

It wasn’t grim, I enjoyed what I did, doing much more wouldn’t have been sensible or enjoyable though. The hills are still there for when conditins improve and looking out of the window today there’s good snow above 1400m with sun on the tops.

Going out in unsuitable conditions is all very well till it goes wrong. A guide and his client phoned the PGHM from a snow hole last year having been caught out in bad weather. Despite the best efforts to save them they were found dead after about 5 days. That’s five days in which conditions were so bad some of the best mountaineers and helicopter pilots on the planet couldn’t get to a set of GPS coordinates on an easy route.

I try to learn from other people’s mistakes; after 24 years of skiing/mountaineering in the Alps/Pyrenees and reading the local press I have a head full of examples to say that some guides sell a dream that is far from reality. That McNab site I found especially misleading.

Backcountry off piste is 80%+ being in the mountains and learning to deal with the conditions IME. There is no such thing as bad snow, just bad skiers (Doug RIP Coombes). My opinion is if you are expecting to get good snow you are going to be disappointed. Its the search and adventure AND the peace, tranquility and experience. The ski down is a bonus. Some of my best memories are from terrible conditions and seemingly pointless activity but the laughter and fun you can find is unmatched. What else you going to do? Watch TV in 2d…

So all those videos and images of champagne pow are misleading…its the ski industry feeding the dream.

Imagine you have to hike for 45 mins in uneven snow at altitude (and thats a short hike really). You’ll be thankful for ever bit of training you do before hand on the way down.

So all those videos and images of champagne pow are misleading…its the ski industry feeding the dream.

True that.

Thing is we have found decent enough powder (for us) while doing our off-piste lite (i.e. more or less in-bounds, near or between pistes).

Nothing amazing. Short runs, not of any interest to proper off-pisters, but enough to whet our appetite. 😀

Nothing wrong with that at all.

Get avalanche awareness training !! Get a transceiver, shovel and probe and learn how to use them . Even for off piste light !!!!

You know it makes sense.

Once you and your mates start doing this sort thing you will do more and take more chances, some things look safer than they are and others are safe but look dangerous.

Even for off piste light !!!!
You know it makes sense.

To be fair both those shots are in-bounds and between pistes in patrolled areas.

Actually the 2nd one is a proper run, you can see the sign on the left, it’s just the Canadians aren’t so keen on bashing everything smooth and flat. 😀

Once you and your mates start doing this sort thing you will do more and take more chances

Yeah I agree. If we do get more serious we’ll be definitely be taking guides and renting BC gear.
(I’m a dad now so I have others to think of, as my wife keeps reminding me!)

Why not just continue what you’re doing, Graham? Slowly building your experience and technical repetoire, and perhaps take a guide/instructor for a half day during you stay if there’s something you’d like to do that you feel requires local knowledge. The stuff you’re doing in the photos is just as much fun as if you’re way ou there man but in an area purged of avalanches and with an easy escape.

Edukators last post makes a lot of sense…

Plenty of areas across Europe have terrain that will be fine for initial forays into lift-served off piste given good conditions (which is the main thing really). Several resorts have reasonably extensive unpisted itineraries that are patrolled and protected (within reason) that you could be fine with no guide and the knowledge that you can always traverse out to lifts with minimal fuss. Wait till closer to the time, choose somewhere with good conditions and forecast (snow/weather/avalanche) and go somewhere last minute. For the money saved on a guide you can get some kit and learn how to use it as there are some very good books/ online tutorials available nowadays.

A variation of this, wait until you are fairly confident of conditions, choose somewhere based on that, find a guide with a good reputation, explain to them what you want to do/ achieve, hire kit (but probably not know how to use it as most hires go)… have fun. (These 2 options could well be combined).

Alternatively, focus more on getting instruction – assessing terrain, traveling safely, reading snowpack, decision making, search/ rescue techniques – all stuff that you can practice on your own and helps you have confidence in doing your own thing in the future. Hire/buy kit as you see fit. In doing this, the chances are that you’ll end up doing some good stuff. This might require a bit more advance planning in getting someone who you can rely on to offer this to a high standard. It might seem less fun than just following a guide around, but that’s for you to decide.

As for specific location, that depends on loads of other things, especially with a short trip. I’d always go with conditions and forecast above everything else. So I won’t give you any recommendations. However, as it was mentioned further up the thread, La Grave is NOT somewhere I would recommend to someone looking to make their first off piste forays, unwilling to hike, having none of the gear (for avalanche/ glaciated terrain), and a short stay. The whole mountain could quite feasibly be storm bound/ avalanche prone the whole time, and if not, a reasonable amount of stuff requires some skill and physical effort – wait until you are able to make more of it safely.

Why not just continue what you’re doing, Graham?

Yeah we will and we enjoy it, but we’re starting to want to do longer runs, which seems to mean getting away from the pistes (or going somewhere with a more enlightened view of piste bashing 🙂 )

perhaps take a guide/instructor for a half day

Just been looking at backcountry guides in Schladming where we are booked in Feb.
Not an area known for much off-piste but hopefully a guide can show us some.

Best be on the first chair of the day if it snows. The Germans will have churned every bit of lift accessible powder by 10:00.

Yeah they don’t do orderly queues 😀

We were there last year so we already have a little off-piste lite spot sussed that doesn’t seem to get too churned. 🙂

Just been having a play on here (needs Flash).

http://snowsafety.thenorthface.com/

Videos and interactive exercises on avalanche and backcountry safety.
Worth a look for people who are interested.

(And yes, before someone says it, I know it is no substitute for proper avalanche awareness, guiding and experience. But it does touch on just how much there is to know).

Have you done the free avalanche awareness download test from the scottish avalanches guys @ glenmore lodge?

http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/avalanche.asp

Good that nbt, and suitably hard as a layman. But the maps are tiny and why oh why is it an executable?? I bet loads more people would use it if it was just a website.

—

Question: do you need the full gear (i.e. transceiver, probe and shovel) and training to access the Back Corries at Nevis Range when it is open and patrolled?

Would seem sensible, but their website makes no mention of it (though I see they do run a Back Corrie Workshop)