- This topic has 7,712 replies, 199 voices, and was last updated 2 months ago by irc.
-
Scotland Indyref 2
-
gordimhorFull Member
On the contrary ninfan . The mull of Kintyre is still there, you just have to peer through the mist rolling in from the sea. Next you ‘ll be telling me tony blair realigned the border between Scotland and England in the north sea, just before the Scottish parliament opened.
brFree MemberThe cost of running Westminster doesn’t even seem to appear in those figures, I presume it is too small – a quick google suggests the pro-rata cost to you is ~£50m a year so pretty much irrelevant. [/I]
We’ll save £50m just not having to cover the cost of the MP’s, so I’m sure there’ll be more.
epicycloFull MemberJust as I have every confidence England’s economy will adjust to cope with Brexit, there will be winners and losers, so will Scotland’s to cope with Scoxit.
A period of adjustment is a small price to pay for self-determination. Shame you lot will still be still saddled with the real problem though – an entrenched undemocratic ruling elite.
teamhurtmoreFree MemberA period of adjustment is a small price to pay for self-determination. Shame you lot will still be still saddled with the real problem though – an entrenched undemocratic ruling elite.
Sounds v like the lament of folk living in Shetland and Orkney saddled with an entrenched ruling elite of the central belt
jambalayaFree MemberJoking aside ninfan’s chart is the only one that matters, in a national referendum the nation voted Leave.
Boarding you had two years to argue the scenario of a Brexit. 2012-4 was the time to discuss that. The ship has saiked and the Fat Lady is clearing her throatepicycloFull Memberteamhurtmore – Member
Sounds v like the lament of folk living in Shetland and Orkney saddled with an entrenched ruling elite of the central beltReally, there’s a House of Lords in Scotland? Permanently in power and not having to face re-election every few years?
Damn, you’d think I’d have noticed…
aracerFree MemberOh, it’s the HoL again. Remind me what direct effect the existence of the HoL has had on your life?
aracerFree MemberYour MPs cost almost £1m each? 😯 No wonder you’re upset, the English ones are a lot cheaper than that.
mtFree MemberTypical selfish Scotlandshire, want another referendum when we are still waiting for the “Free Yorkshire” (it better be cheap) vote. If them northern Britains actually had anything about em an SNP weren’t just keeping themselves in power with promises of “Freeeeeedom”, they’d declare UDI.
brFree MemberI bet MPs don’t cost much less than £1m pa, if you add up all their costs and the costs associated with them.
aracerFree MemberSure, if you include all the costs of running parliament including the HoL, the total cost of your MPs is ~£50m as I mentioned before.
You could always try getting some facts to support your arguments rather than just speculating. It’s not that hard to find out the total cost of running Westminster. Though I suppose the facts probably don’t support the argument you’re trying to make.
teamhurtmoreFree MemberDamn, you’d think I’d have noticed…
You only have to open your eyes, but bravo for the swerve. Strachan would have been proud of that.
But lets consider
1. How many local authorities are there in Scoltand? How many of them voted YES? How many NOs had a higher percentage NO that the highsst Yes (Dundee)?
2. How representative are the current cabinet in Scoltand? Of the ten ministers how many come from one University (not Oxford this time)? Which one is it?
3. How do those in the Notth – lets say the Islands – feel about the Central Belt representing their interests?
Is Scotland really that different – scale aside?
5thElefantFree MemberHow much have the Scottish Mps cost to date including their palace?
teamhurtmoreFree MemberIf the posters above who have argued that Scottish MPs have no control over any levers of relevance to the country and the economy are correct, then Scottish MPs would be very expensive indeed. Some might argue a folly……
bencooperFree MemberI worked it out because I was curious – universities of the Scottish cabinet:
Nicola Sturgeon: Glasgow
John Swinney: Edinburgh
Derek Mackay: Glasgow – did not finish
Shona Robison: Glasgow
Roseanna Cunningham: Edinburgh & Aberdeen
Fiona Hyslop: Glasgow
Angela Constance: Glasgow
Michael Mathewson: Open University (and QM College, Edinburgh)
Keith Brown: Dundee
Fergus Ewing: GlasgowepicycloFull Membermt – Member
…If them northern Britains actually had anything about em an SNP weren’t just keeping themselves in power with promises of “Freeeeeedom”, they’d declare UDI.There’s a growing movement outwith the SNP for just that. It’s probably the SNP’s biggest problem, trying to convince the more radical independence movements to keep their powder dry.
aracer – Member
Oh, it’s the HoL again. Remind me what direct effect the existence of the HoL has had on your life?Remind me of the democratic benefits of having an unelected upper house that consists of aristos, Church of England bishops, and appointed members.
Perhaps you could also explain why that should be growing when the govt intends reducing the number of elected members in the lower house to save money.
gordimhorFull MemberI think it is wrong that the unelected HoL can remove powers from the Scottish Parliament without debate or consultation.
ninfanFree MemberRemind me of the democratic benefits of having an unelected upper house that consists of aristos, Church of England bishops, and appointed members.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4616356.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7666022.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34631156And one can only imagine how you’ll change your tune and be jumping up and down cheering them on if they try and block Brexit too 😉
JunkyardFree Memberit’s the HoL again. Remind me what direct effect the existence of the HoL has had on your life?
I dont know if anyone has told you this but they are part of our govt, serve in govt, amend legislation and block the govt of the day ALL despite not being elected or accountable to anyone.
A law that banned women going out would have no impact on me …I guess I should not care?You usually make much better points than this
I think we all know the HoL is the least powerful of the two chambers but it is indefinable – not least because of the method by which they are appointed. A credible argument can be made for independent – like say judges are- with expertise , being a check or balance on the power of the govt, but the H o L is not that thing. Its archaic and was outdated 200 years ago never mind now.
aracerFree MemberIt wasn’t a unilateral thing – that amendment was added before the bill even made it to the HoC, so the HoL “removed powers” in just the same way as civil servants “make laws” by drafting bills. I’m struggling to see what is undemocratic about something which was voted on 3 times in the HoC.
In a more general sense JY – yes the HoL is undemocratic, but we have a good recent example of the power of democracy to improve our country 🙄 I’d suggest that in general the HoL provides a useful service of improving the laws made by the HoC – I’m not sure that the lack of democracy is terribly important here, it’s just about generating the right laws for governing the country. TBH I’m kind of cynical about democracy always providing the right answers when the people elected to the HoC are all politicians…
I agree with your last point, but that’s an argument for improving the selection of peers, not for getting rid of the whole thing.
tjagainFull MemberIt doesn’t really matter if it ws the commons or the lords – its still undemocratic to remove powers from Holyrood and this in particular stinks – its part of a series of action to attempt to make scotland reliant on england for energy and to prevent scotland becoming a world player in alternative energy.
big_n_daftFree MemberTypical selfish Scotlandshire, want another referendum when we are still waiting for the
“Free Yorkshire”rhyddid i Yr Hed Ogledd (it still better be cheap) voteFIFY
duckmanFull MemberSo Shetland has the right to be unhappy with being governed by the central belt, but the Nation of Scotland doesn’t have the right to be unhappy about being governed by Westminster 😆 Since “the truth is out there”© Alistair Carmichael’s majority in 2010 in a seat with 33,000 registered voters was 9928. In 2015, before the inquiry, it was down to 817. That would suggest the islands would like stronger links with the mainland,in a seat held by the Liberals since 1950. Obviously none of these are “canny” Scots and “somebody” will be along soon to explain again all about how it is all anti-english sentiment or swallowing SNP lies….again… 🙄
nickjbFree Memberwe are still waiting for the “Free Yorkshire” (it better be cheap) vote.
Yorkshire voted leave. You’re sticking around and going down with the ship 😈
JunkyardFree MemberI’d suggest that in general the HoL provides a useful service of improving the laws made by the HoC
It all depends but the point is not whether they are useful its whether they are democratically accountable seeing as they are law makers and whether we can achieve the same thing but with the check being representatives of the people. Clearly we can do this,
I’m not sure that the lack of democracy is terribly important here,
😯
Thank you dear leader for your comments 😉I can see no way that anythign matters more in a democracy than decisions are democratic. They are unelected, unaccountable and often out of touch with the real world and not all reflective of wider society
TO not see a problem with this is strange
its really not about how effective they are its about the fact they are unelected and they have more power than my one vote and often just due to birthright or belonging to the correct religion or kissing the right arses politically- both parties do this. Lord archer, Lord Mandy of smarm etc
I’m kind of cynical about democracy always providing the right answers
But not cynical about unelected folk doing the same thing?
Neither will always be “correct” but one is at least the will of the people.
Its indefensible because of how its members are appointed not because of what it does or how it does it- though much of that is outdated as well.I would imagine a PR style system with longer terms would give independence and provide a check on a govt who get elected on less than 40% of the popular vote and then has a mandate to be an “elected dictatorship”
epicycloFull Memberaracer – Member
…I agree with your last point, but that’s an argument for improving the selection of peers, not for getting rid of the whole thing.I’m astounded anyone really believes that.
ninfan – Member
And one can only imagine how you’ll change your tune and be jumping up and down cheering them on if they try and block Brexit tooNot at all. England voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, so an undemocratic body blocking it is wrong.
Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, so the answer is to dissolve the Union, so Scotland’s democratic will can also be implemented.
ninfanFree MemberScotland voted overwhelmingly to remain,
Scotland didn’t vote for anything, because Scotland isn’t a state or a member of the EU
The UK Voted to leave
epicycloFull Memberninfan – Member
‘Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain,’
Scotland didn’t vote for anything, because Scotland isn’t a state…Dream on.
The Empire needs people like you.
JunkyardFree Memberits pointless clearly scotland voted to remain and clearly the decision is one for the entire UK who voted differently from Scotland. You are both correct and the views are not mutually exclusive- though ninfan has an agenda- mainly to make himself look daft as he argues against anything and everything-
Clearly this is a source of friction between the Uk govt and the Scottish govt and no one knows how it will end
Its hard to see how the rUK will just ignore a vote to leave the UK even if it is not legally binding
ninfanFree MemberClearly this is a source of friction between the Uk govt and the Scottish govt and no one knows how it will end
Here’s a reminder as to how these things normally work out
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TW8bhB5oxQI[/video]
teamhurtmoreFree Memberduckman – Member
So Shetland has the right to be unhappy with being governed by the central belt, but the Nation of Scotland doesn’t have the right to be unhappy about being governed by WestminsterWoooossshhhh
epicycloFull Memberninfan – Member
Here’s a reminder as to how these things normally work outActually it’s not. That was not Scotland versus England.
It was an attempt to restore the Stuart monarchy. Many of the clans abstained or supported the govt side.
However abstaining or supporting the govt side did not save them from what came afterwards, the deliberate destruction of our culture and language. Lesson learned.
jambalayaFree MemberCommons/Lords/Westminster/Holyrood – all discussed for 2 years and voted on in 2014, 55 v 45
The EU Referendum was a UK one, regional analysis is an interesting academic excersize. Or possibly it’s not interesting. It is however academic with no democratic or constitutional impact
big_n_daftFree MemberHowever abstaining or supporting the govt side did not save them from what came afterwards, the deliberate destruction of our culture and language.
Yes the The Abolition of Heritable Jurisdictions Act of 1747 was a shocking act of cultural vandalism
the answer is to dissolve the Union, so
Scotland’sYr Hen Ogledd ‘s democratic will can also be implemented.FIFY
duckmanFull MemberJY; while being unable to refute the point…Strange Teamhavermore must have missed that, just as he ignored Ben’s list of cabinet ministers Universities. thought he was bringing truth as a counter to the YS BS. Well he said that’s what he was doing anyway! Well
teamhurtmoreFree MemberJY; while being unable to refute the point…
You didnt make a point, you missed one
ust as he ignored Ben’s list of cabinet ministers Universities.
No Ben made my point for me – although I make it 7/10 went to Glasgow.
thought he was bringing truth as a counter to the YS BS. Well he said that’s what he was doing anyway! Well
So what do we know? All you are arguing is to replace one unrepresentative elite with another. The yes vote is highly concentrated geographically and even then is not as conclusive (ie % of voters saying yes) as many other areas of Scotland. In Dundee, the hotbed of nationalism the vote was only 57% (IIRC) below the level many (even nats in here) believe is a sensible threshold for votes of this importance.
The University question was simple. Replace an Oxford-elite with a Glasgow version (and some other ancients) – so a narrowly focused background and groupthink mentality, exactly the same accusation that is levelled at W’minster, albeit a budget version in this case.
And we know how the Islanders feel about the dominance of representation by the Central Belt.
So the argument about representation and avoiding elites and a fairer more representative governments is largely hogwash. You merely replace one elite with another – the story of history – but in the meantime throw away the benefits of being part of one of the most successful economic and political unions in history.
That is barking mad.
So Shetland has the right to be unhappy with being governed by the central belt, but the Nation of Scotland doesn’t have the right to be unhappy about being governed by Westminster
I am in favour of devolving power where appropriate and as much as possible as I said in the previous indy comedy. Its the inconsistency in your attempt at a point that I reject. Equally there are areas where it makes sense to give up some “sovereignty” to enjoy the benefits of interdependence. There are two groups of lunatics who want toe take positions of balance and throw them away on that basis of illogical arguments. So far, only one has succeeded in delivering such folly.
duckmanFull MemberWhat do we know about how the Islanders feel;that they are turning to the SNP? That what is happening, how does that fit your narrative? Since you frequently claim it is anti English sentiment that is a main driver of the Indy movement, why the sudden upswing?
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.