[Closed] Saracen Ariel 15x linkage play AGAIN

Saracen use Norglide bushes which should be good for 1000s of miles use... sounds like you have a wonky frame.

i almost hope that is the case as at least there is a reason and a warranty frame should solve it.

Such a fun bike to ride, i don't want to replace it with anything else!!

they also have the facility to adjust the bearings - is it possible that you've mis adjusted, or that there's a degree of settling in first?

[s]bearings[/s] bushings

Are you sure? as far as i can tell there is no adjustment on the bearings or bushings, its a fixed axle with a collet to lock it in place and prevent unwinding.

Did you get this resolved? Got play in mine after 2 months...

My Grapil uses an identical system and the same norglide bushes. I bought a job lot of wider ones from a bearing suplier and change them every month or so as leaving them to wear down results in damage to the pivot axels. The bushes are only about 90p each so worth changing as preventative measure.

But I will never buy a bike with bushes and not bearings again!

One of the lads I go riding with had an Ariel 151, he had the same issue with play in the linkage, Madison replaced the bushes with the new type, within a few rided the play returned so again the bushes were replaced, again withing a few rided it happened again. This time his frame was replaced with a 15x and guess what.... Yip, it happened again, at this point the frame was rejected and he went and bought a Kona, its a shame really as the Ariel was a cracking bike to ride!

The bushings on my 14x have gone after 10 months. I've ordered a bushing kit from my LBS. Does anyone have any fitting instructions? Thanks

fitting is dead easy, just unscrew the bolts and the bushes push out and back in again by hand

Yes, had problems 2013 kili-flyer X, First set of bushings in a single weekend (wet welsh grit), second set lasted a week in the alps, but damaged the aluminium shafts as well.

Replaced the plastic norglide OE bush, with same Ø15.0 diameter, but much longer (17mm instead of 5mm) metal backed ones from a bearing supplier. They seem to be lasting a lot better.
http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/index.php?cPath=3_4701_4703

Let’s hope Saracen sort it out, great frames otherwise!

Jono

Thanks Dave

I had the same issue with my 152. I bought it in late January 2014 and had the bushings replaced 3 times under warranty 1st one due to under spec. The 3rd set gave up about a month ago so I spoke with an independent bike shop who I know specialise in Saracens. The owner also has an 152 and was keen to help as he thinks they are the best bike ever. After spending a few hours with me and also giving me a lesson for the future he found 1 under spec bushing and the lower shock bushing measured 0.2mm too wide possibly pushing the linkage open very slightly and allowing a bit more play. If your are anywhere near Stockport I recommend going here http://www.ingear-uk.com/. I drove an hour or more to get there and I have since had no issues plus he was a great help.
Good luck.

And another one... after about 100 miles. The instructions for replacing the bolt say 'insert a small allen key and push sideways to break the tolerance fit' or something similar. Can anyone explain this in more detail, as mine isn't budging am I'm reticent to use too much force and damage the swingarm!

Thanks

Tom

My 14x has is heading back to madison after 4 rides.

My 14X frame, bought last September, had the problem after a month or so and had the bushes replaced. I have not ridden it much over the winter but a check at the weekend suggests the problem is back.

Mismatch of spacer/bearings & backends due to component supplier change apparently.

What does that mean for us mean mortals logo, will mine come back fixed or will it just happen again have they managed to resolve the supplier issues do we know?

From what I've been told there are parts produced by one supplier are a little to small to be used with components produced by another supplier which causes issues, but don't quote me on this, our neighbour's boys bikes both same model and age both did the same thing, parts replaced & matched and problem has gone for the last few weeks.

Watching this thread with interest. I've just ordered an Ariel 16x and I'm wondering whether I'll have the same issues. I might contact Madison to ask before I build it up.

I have a 2014 151 Ariel and there is some play in the linkage, trying to work out the best and cheapest fix for it. don't suppose anyone knows a cheap alternative to Norglide...do other bearings fit?

Bearings are bearings? i.e. they come in standard sizes right? Its the tolerances of the frame and triangle etc that can be causing wearing or misalignment?

Personally if I'm reading issues I wouldn't be buying. Coming up to summer do you really want to be thinking about things like this? Plenty more frames out there.

Bearings are bearings?

No, my understanding is it's spacers that cause the issues.

Lovely bikes, just a production issues that can be rectified with fitting of the correct parts as far as I understand,if people are having issues, that are not due to wear and tear of bearings surfaces they should go straight to their dealer to discuss the issues.

Bearings are bearings but bushings are not bearings.

It's not my only bike so I can cope with issues, as long as they are rectified.

The geo of the frame is what I was looking for, barring the issues here people who have them seem to love how they ride, I love the look of the frame and it was a good price, so I took the risk.

It would seem several of us have done as you suggest Loco, in some cases more than once and the problem recurs. Certainly in my case I was told all would be OK as I had the new correct sized bushes fitted but that hasn't turned out to be correct.

My understanding is that it is a mismatch of spacers/shims in the backend, [i]not[/i] bushings, popping round to our neighbours in next day or two will check again exactly what was done to the bikes.

Loco, that would be very helpful to know.

It's not my only bike so I can cope with issues, as long as they are rectified.

Only once have I bought into a frame thats had historic issues- i.e the Meta 5.5 but I knew exactly what I was walking into as it was the improved reinforced version. A crack could happen but it might take months. An issue that sidelines you after a few rides is daft.

Hora, if you look deep enough any frame from any manufacturer will have had issues for a few customers 😉

Totally agree and the internet amplifies problems to a wider audience.

You never keep frames long enough to re-lube the chain, let alone replace bushings Hora. 😉

I cant remember any issues that Ive had with frames and I've owned a fair few for 1+yrs. The only issues that I had was bearing life on Blur4x but that was sorted out very quickly.

The issues that you hear of on the net seem to be focused around one area. The problem is do the manufacturer sort this within a short period or is it heel-dragging/ongoing.

Thats when you know the manufacturer has a problem and ergo the customer aint happy.

Anyway- I'm detracting from the topic now so I'll step back 🙂

@Hora

My risk to take and at the moment I'm comfortable with it, of course that may change. Not sure why you have such an issue with that.

On top of that I'm not sure that the 16x even suffers with this problem. Nobody so far in this thread has even said they own one. I'm just accepting the possibility that there may be an issue as the 14x, 15x, and 16x all use the same suspension design.

My 2015 15x is going back this week after 3 rides/51 miles for play in the linkage.

My brothers 2014 16x frame had linkage play straight out of the box before it was even built up. Replacement frame good so far, but it's only been on a couple of rides.

My riding buddy has the 14x, its only just worn out a set of bushings after nearly 2 years. seems to be this problem is exclusive the the 15- range.

i don't know what you lot are on about about spacers either, there are none!

the play in mine happens where the swingarm meets the "T" shaped part of the linkage, every time.

the only things that could cause that are:

Misaligned linkage part
Misaligned swingarm
Linkage bracket on frame misaligned
excess flex in the swingarm putting too much leverage into the bushing.

I've bought a new frame now (not a Saracen). Shame as the 15x is utterly magic to ride.

I have now swapped out the worn bushes which were visibly damaged for some new ones and still have play. It feels like one of the shafts is too small, causing the premature wear on the old bushes. Because the play is vertical, not lateral I don't believe its a misalignment, but a tolerance issue. If Loco is correct then it would seem and easy fix?

I bought mine second hand and the play developed after about 100 miles, so I'm screwed but it seems the 'warranty' isn't much use anyway...

Definitely won't be buying Saracen ever again!!!

Edit: Bushes are 15mm bore, 17mm outer, 5mm high, 1mm flange, 23mm flange diameter if anyone wants to source their own. Saint Gobain will only sell them in bulk, although if we all club together and change them monthly we could probably use a run of 100,000!

i think they need to make the pivot axles out of steel or at least add some sort of hardened race to them. seems once the bushes go, they chew the axles up and then you are royally screwed.

such a shame though that a bike as awesome to ride as that is flawed.

Sad to hear, but it happens with many brands from time to time.

we had the same thing happen over 2 years with the older /Mythic Banshee frames running the IGUS bushings, and it was a nightmare for both customers and us (freeborn) as the distributor.

customers said the frames (typically the Rune and Spitfire) rode brilliantly, but the back ends would not stay tight, or would be too tight, or constantly chewed bushings and frame components.

At least with Saracen you are dealing with Madison who have the resources to deal with a problem like this in a timely manner.

Had a look at the neighbors bikes, the play was due to bolt/bush mismatch, have been replaced and no play in the linkage for 3 weeks or so now, they ride a lot too.
Did notice one of the bikes has now developed play in the main pivot though.

Really fancy one of these bikes looks ideal, but reading about this issue online has put me off! Surely there must be some happy owners out there?

I spoke to Madison and they say the issue has been resolved on the 2015 bikes.

Can anyone confirm if this is true?

Did they say what the issue is or was?

My 14X is in the dealer workstand for the second time. Apparently the bushing was fine the problem is with a slightly undersized bolt, Madison are sending a correct sized bolt to the LBS for fitting.

Bolt/bush size mismatch, the shoulder of the bush on top link appeared to be a bit off too.
The bikes are 2014 models.

My 2015 15x frame is on its way back from Freeborn after being with Madison, new bushes and bolts apparently. Will get it built up again next week and see how it goes.