Do you think these `brainless muppets’as you call them, can pick and choose what conflicts they serve in or in deed what peace keeping or aid work they do? They can’t go on strike you know. Or would you prefer we didn’t have any Armed Forces?

Bloody hell! I knew I recognised the sargeant from MTBing!
Watching the whole thing thinking, that guy is so familiar… It was Pants! What a geezer.

I must say, I haven’t read whatever is causing the arguments on this thread, but when I was younger I had no respect for soldiers and other military types going to war, but I grew up.

its a difficult one isn’t it?

on the one hand its hard not feel a good deal of pride and support for what the armed forces have to do and the effects that it has on them

BUT

the context of their service has to be taken into account. this is not a great crusade, it is not the free world fighting back against the forces of darkness, it is not noble or just or proportionate. I feel extremely angry that men and women from my country are fighting, killing and dying in a pointless war that has been created to further western interests and to protect the interests of the few over the needs of the many.

It is utterly wrong and as ever its the common folks on both sides who bleed and whose families mourn.

Yep, totally agree.

Do you think these `brainless muppets’as you call them, can pick and choose what conflicts they serve in or in deed what peace keeping or aid work they do? They can’t go on strike you know. Or would you prefer we didn’t have any Armed Forces?

they volunteer for it, so yes they do have a choice. these people don’t grow up in a vaccum, I certainly didn’t when the army came to my school in the 90’s and tried to recruit me, i knew it was wrong and didn’t sign up.

“He’s the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can’t go on.”

Really is the bottom line.

Or would you prefer we didn’t have any Armed Forces?

You say that like it’s a bad thing?

The army clearly is not wrong. The guys and girls who go to war clearly aren’t muppets, they do a very difficult job in challenging circumstances and care very much for the lives of their comrades.

Are they there for good reason – I guess that depends on whether you support the ways and means of the opposition. I am pretty sure most of us have issues with terrorists and terrorist acts. It is only by taking down the chain of command and restoring order to these lawless lands that things will improve. Last nights documentary did show some of the real good that is being done in Afghanistan. We should be supportive.

[edited – mod]

until we do people have a duty to speak out against war and soldiers should have a duty to grow a brain.

They have a duty to take it up with the politicians. Your petty digs against the soldiers says more about you than it does about them. Dismissing people out of hand for the job they do is a stunningly narrow-minded and low-brow way of dealing with your problem.

Are they there for good reason – I guess that depends on whether you support the ways and means of the opposition. I am pretty sure most of us have issues with terrorists and terrorist acts. It is only by taking down the chain of command and restoring order to these lawless lands that things will improve.

I think you need to dig a little deeper shortcut. Put yourself in the shoes of those opposing western rule and ask why three times.

the context of their service has to be taken into account. this is not a great crusade, it is not the free world fighting back against the forces of darkness, it is not noble or just or proportionate. I feel extremely angry that men and women from my country are fighting, killing and dying in a pointless war that has been created to further western interests and to protect the interests of the few over the needs of the many.

It is utterly wrong and as ever its the common folks on both sides who bleed and whose families mourn.

In the context of Afghanistan, you will have to answer the question, who would you prefer be in charge of the country today?

A: Taliban
B: Corrupt Government supported by the west.

In the context of Afghanistan, you will have to answer the question, who would you prefer be in charge of the country today?

A: Taliban
B: Corrupt Government supported by the westI’d let them sort it out themselves, over a century of outside influences meddling in afghanistan hasn’t seemed to them any good.

In the context of Afghanistan, you will have to answer the question, who would you prefer be in charge of the country today?

Why? It’s not for me (us) to answer.

Dismissing people out of hand for the job they do is a stunningly narrow-minded and low-brow way of dealing with your problem

Giving people unlimited support for the job they do is narrow minded if you ask me. People are responsible for their own actions.. just following orders doesn’t really wash imo.

In the context of Afghanistan, you will have to answer the question, who would you prefer be in charge of the country today?

i would prefer that the people of afghanistan got to make the choice. unfortunately as afghanistan has never ever been a coutry based on the western ideal of red lines on map different people want different things….bit like india/pakistan/kashmir….bit like iraq…bit like israel and palestine…..who drew those lines and imposed those borders?

there is no real ‘context of afghanistan’, its a smokescreen.

I’d let them sort it out themselves, over a century of outside influences meddling in afghanistan hasn’t seemed to them any good.

They did sort it out themselves. So that’s Answer A for you.

Why? It’s not for me (us) to answer.

No answer= A.

i would prefer that the people of afghanistan got to make the choice. unfortunately as afghanistan has never ever been a coutry based on the western ideal of red lines on map different people want different things….bit like india/pakistan/kashmir….bit like iraq…bit like israel and palestine…..who drew those lines and imposed those borders?

there is no real ‘context of afghanistan’, its a smokescreen.

Noble answer, but a cop out. You are basing your answer on what could have been, but today those red lines exist.

Im sure Private Gray joined up to serve his country. and he died doing just that. personally i have respect or that. i thought it was an exceptional piece of television.
the vast majority of service men and women join up to serve and protect their country. they are taught to follow orders and as such end up where they are sent. they may not agree with it but that is the job they signed up for. it might not be easy to do so but if they really disagree then they can leave.
imo you’ve got to be mental to join the army. but then im sure the vast majority of soldiers would think i must be mental to do the job i do.

Noble answer, but a cop out. You are basing your answer on what could have been, but today those red lines exist.

its not a cop out, its the reality of how we arrived to where we are today. How do we halt extremism? By invading countries and shooting people? Does that not seem a trifle self defeating? Does that not actually foster extremism? Is that not what we’ve been doing for the past couple of hundred years? Has it worked? What actually makes young men and women strap bombs to themselves and kill themselves and others? Extremism is a symptom of the root problem, not the problem itself. Until the problem is resolved the symptom will remain. The problem will not be solved with rpgs, drones and cruise missiles. It will be solved when the west treats people in developing world as equals rather than thralls.

we need to get to a point where rather than comparing who has the bigger stick, we all put the sticks down.
unfortunately, thats really unlikely to happen. there will always be someone hiding a stick behind their back ready to hit you when you’re not looking.

How do we halt extremism?

Take the money we spend on drones and bombs and warships and feed the freakin’ world.

amen.

its irrelivent whether we should be there or not, the people in the army have a duty to follow orders and we have a duty to support them, not make them out to be ‘muppets who like to shoot people for a pittance’

How can the reasons for the war be irrelevant??????
I like your nurenberg defence of following orders 🙄
I have no duty here whatsoever to support them just because they are British. Your argument is if the govt tell them to do something they need to do it and we all should support it WHY?
Imagine we invaded Spain and started killing children would your argument still apply. What if we carpet bomb Ireland invade the country and expel all catholics – still ok and got your support?. Your argument is simply my country right or wrong and it is a silly argument. What our armed forces do may be right or wrong they cannot have my unswaying support whatever they do.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Arundhati_Roy/Mesopotamia_Babylon.html

good article this, based on Iraq, but still relevant today

In most parts of the world, the invasion of Iraq is being seen as a racist war. The real danger of a racist war unleashed by racist regimes is that it engenders racism in everybody – perpetrators, victims, spectators. It sets the parameters for the debate, it lays out a grid for a particular way of thinking. There is a tidal wave of hatred for the US rising from the ancient heart of the world. In Africa, Latin America, Asia, Europe, Australia. I encounter it every day. Sometimes it comes from the most unlikely sources. Bankers, businessmen, yuppie students, and they bring to it all the crassness of their conservative, illiberal politics. That absurd inability to separate governments from people: America is a nation of morons, a nation of murderers, they say, (with the same carelessness with which they say, “All Muslims are terrorists”). Even in the grotesque universe of racist insult, the British make their entry as add-ons. Arse-lickers, they’re called.

I really want to watch this, but forgot. Hope it’s repeated. Although I certainly don’t think everyone of our grunts fighting there is brave. I’d love to fight there, and I’m the world biggest coward! I think a very large percentage of the population have forgotten what ‘brave’ actually means.

I certainly don’t agree on our current activities in the Middle East, and those that use the ‘terrorist’ excuse should know that the world’s largest supporter/financier/instigator of terrorism worldwide is the US, who we are supporting. Knowledgeable people in the US know this, the CIA has even commented on it, and the US is currently an outlaw country who refuses to recognise and abide by the UN World Court after a conviction they refuse to accept. So much for the ’war on terror’. Incidentally the US allowed fundraising in the country to arm the IRA to blow up innocent men women and children on UK soil. They were very friendly with Germany at the start of WWII (not surprising as they had money invested in Germany’s eugenics program), and Argentina at the start of that conflict. Now that’s IS a special relationship.

In any case, the terrorists we are currently hunting will probably get a statue in Trafalgar Square one day like Nelson Mandela did.

For those that like information, watch the documentary about the accidental loss of the 1996 flight TWA800. In it, they explain how it was at first thought to be a terrorist act in revenge for US meddling in the Middle East and the US had already been warned that action would be taken against them if they continued. We now know of course, that the Twin Towers attack was the revenge attack.

Get over to Wikileaks too, lots of great stuff there.

I’d love to fight there

😐

Take the money we spend on drones and bombs and warships and feed the freakin’ world.

It would take more than that. Remove nationhood, capitalism, communism, religion, political idealogy and our own personal selfishness and perhaps we could achieve it.

How do we halt extremism? By invading countries and shooting people?

It worked against the Nazis.

Has it worked?

Yes. Apart from the conflict in the Balkans which I’m sure you would have preferred to just let them get on with, without interference from us, Europe has been at peace since 1945.

What actually makes young men and women strap bombs to themselves and kill themselves and others?

Sunni’s and Shias not liking each other terribly, not just the west.

Does that not seem a trifle self defeating? Does that not actually foster extremism? Is that not what we’ve been doing for the past couple of hundred years? Has it worked? Extremism is a symptom of the root problem, not the problem itself.

We foster extremism by not doing anything about it. Like in the 1930’s and then in 1940 it came knocking on our door.

I understand you point of view about the west’s involvement in fostering extremism, we have been involved in keeping middle east dictatorships in power so we can have their lovely oil.

unfortunately, thats really unlikely to happen. there will always be someone hiding a stick behind their back ready to hit you when you’re not looking.

This is the reality.

El-bent – Member

“Take the money we spend on drones and bombs and warships and feed the freakin’ world.”

It would take more than that. Remove nationhood, capitalism, communism, religion, political idealogy and our own personal selfishness and perhaps we could achieve it.

I reckon it’s worth a try. “With” vs “Without” is the most basic motivator there is, much more basic than any human construct.

I really want to watch this, but forgot. Hope it’s repeated

Iplayer is you friend for this one.

will people please stop feeding the trolls. you feed one and they double in number.

I reckon it’s worth a try. “With” vs “Without” is the most basic motivator there is, much more basic than any human construct.

It does already happen in the form of charitable donations, but does anyone think all the money goes to the poor or the starving in places like Ethiopia? Until we remove those human constructs, it’s not going to get any better.

It worked against the Nazis.

We foster extremism by not doing anything about it. Like in the 1930’s and then in 1940 it came knocking on our door.

ah the nazis – remember the root causes of the rise of extremism in Germany after the great war? anything to do with crippling economic santions placed upon germany by the western powers? Again, the nazis were a symptom of a problem created by others.

Part of the problem is Afghanistan is tribal and areas will change sides at a drop of the hat. You could be fighting against one bunch one day and the next training them to police the area then fighting them again a week later. The coalition are only in control of a certain area as long as they have a large presence their.

ah the nazis – remember the root causes of the rise of extremism in Germany after the great war? anything to do with crippling economic santions placed upon germany by the western powers? Again, the nazis were a symptom of a problem created by others.

Partially. The Nazi’s were small time before the Human construct called capitalism came crashing down in the late 20’s early 30’s, forcing the USA to withdraw financial support from Germany.

I do agree with you that the case of the Nazi’s is a classic example of extremism developing out of past **** ups, but it also highlights the consequences of your “lets wash our hands of this and do nothing” approach.

El-bent – Member

“I reckon it’s worth a try. “With” vs “Without” is the most basic motivator there is, much more basic than any human construct.”

It does already happen in the form of charitable donations, but does anyone think all the money goes to the poor or the starving in places like Ethiopia? Until we remove those human constructs, it’s not going to get any better.

Easy, don’t provide money, provide food. Have it administered by the Regional organizations – African Union, Arab League, Association of Southeast Asian Nations etc.

will people please stop feeding the trolls. you feed one and they double in number.

🙄

I do agree with you that the case of the Nazi’s is a classic example of extremism developing out of past **** ups, but it also highlights the consequences of your “lets wash our hands of this and do nothing” approach.

when did i say anything about washing our hands and doing nothing?? Where??

Military action is not a proactive approach, I’d actually see it as reactive. It addresses only the immediate symptoms. We cannot bury our heads in the sand, we created the problem, its ours to solve. Rather than fighting we should be talking, and listening, and preparing to offer aid and support, and forcing our largest corporations to act honourably when conducting business, and revising our foreign policy goals to include others not just our own self interest. And we should be prepared to do this for a long time, with no thanks, and for minor dissident groups to continue to attack us. ( ie the stick anaolgy^^)

Oh and we could probably do with not selling arms to dictators and covertly funding terrorists ourselves – its quite obvious we are doing it and makes us look a bit shit.

when did i say anything about washing our hands and doing nothing?? Where??

By not wanting our involvement in Afghanistan.

We cannot bury our heads in the sand, we created the problem, its ours to solve. Rather than fighting we should be talking, and listening, and preparing to offer aid and support

well I’m sure the Nazi’s, the Soviet union and the Taliban would have loved this approach.

, and forcing our largest corporations to act honourably when conducting business, and revising our foreign policy goals to include others not just our own self interest.

Noble, but all those “Human constructs” as Lifer puts it gets in the way. Unless you know where the Humanity reset button is.

Easy, don’t provide money, provide food. Have it administered by the Regional organizations – African Union, Arab League, Association of Southeast Asian Nations etc.

We have been providing food, it hasn’t achieved anything, We can provide the means to grow food, but that takes money to build the infrastructure, education takes money etc, but with it comes corruption, it’s what we are doing in Afghanistan.

The organisations you have mentioned may have some common interests, but the have an awful lot that sets them against one another. They are essentially competing with one another.

If anyone is interested in watching the TV programme, rather than displaying their vast political knowledge 😉
it’s repeated on Sunday at 11:30pm

when did i say anything about washing our hands and doing nothing?? Where??

By not wanting our involvement in Afghanistan.

you are putting words in my mouth, stop it, there’s plenty in there already 🙂

well I’m sure the Nazi’s, the Soviet union and the Taliban would have loved this approach.

As we’ve previously discussed the nazis were largely a product of previous western sanctions – had germany been aided and rebuilt by the league of nations etc perhaps they would not have risen to prominence.

, and forcing our largest corporations to act honourably when conducting business, and revising our foreign policy goals to include others not just our own self interest.

Noble, but all those “Human constructs” as Lifer puts it gets in the way. Unless you know where the Humanity reset button is.

A shift away from self interest isnt a reset. Humanity is actually exactly what we need more of.

oooh what a lot of armchair experts we are

should have world peace/poverty cracked by the end of page three.

yes and then we turn our attention to the stupid and the cynical.

A shift away from self interest isnt a reset. Humanity is actually exactly what we need more of.

Humanity is more than just compassion and honour.

As we’ve previously discussed the nazis were largely a product of previous western sanctions – had germany been aided and rebuilt by the league of nations etc perhaps they would not have risen to prominence.

Erm, Afghanistan? Some don’t want us to go nation building as such, like the Taliban, or those who somehow expect democracy or proper Governance to magically appear overnight and criticise it with accusations of vote rigging and corruption when it doesn’t, it took us hundreds of years to get to where we in the west(I hate this phrase) are today and we are still not happy.

oooh what a lot of armchair experts we are

should have world peace/poverty cracked by the end of page three.

Well at least we are having a go. 😉

So tell me Soobalias which mind are you?

Great minds discuss the future of mankind, average minds discuss the impact of recent events, small minds discuss Britain’s got talent. 😉