IMO we are seeing exactly the opposite to what you suggest, hence the tag lines #posttruthpolitics

Possibly. It’s certainly on a knife-edge, and possibly explains why the battle lines are so distinct even though the winning post is so far off. For my money I don’t see this (small) revolution succeeding, there’s just too much aligned against it and things probably need to get a lot worse before it has a chance of expanding beyond well-meaning lefty types and the younger generation. Maybe it’ll simply be a case of demographics? Wait 10-20 years and most of the baby-boomers will be gone and in their place a new generation of people paying off the debts left to them by their elders.

Try ;~) if yours isn’t working.

Given my previous comments on this thread I assumed it would have been obvious. I’m obviously not being partisan enough 🙂

Not sure how waiting for the old lefties to die off will help. The new generation is more right wing than their parents.

The new generation is more right wing than their parents.

Maybe the ones who stand to inherit all the wealth they’ve accrued at the expense of future generations. I’m not sure that will continue though when it starts to disappear.

The new generation is more right wing than their parents.

I think they are more individualistic [ but not right wing] but when they discover, post uni, they have a large debt and no earning premium and cannot afford to buy a house, and they effectively pay more tax than us who got a free education, they may look at the older generation and be a little pissed of with us. We live in a time where our parents had it better than us and we will have it better than our kids. At some point they are going to think this is unfair. I cannot say I blame them

Actually you are wrong on them being more right wing
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx
AGE CON LAB
18-24 27 43
25-34 33 36
35-44 35 35
45-54 36 33
55-64 37 31
65+ 47 23

Given my previous comments on this thread I assumed it would have been obvious. I’m obviously not being partisan enough

Ha- to me you are the balanced one on this thread (hence my misconstruing you)

Actually you are wrong on them being more right wing
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx
AGE CON LAB
18-24 27 43
25-34 33 36
35-44 35 35
45-54 36 33
55-64 37 31
65+ 47 23

Interesting. There were a few articles a while back about how youngsters were more right wing than their parents for the first time.

I wonder if more lefties actually vote in their youth skewing the figures, or if it’s just still the case people just move right a they grow up.

When JC wins (again)…what are all the anti- Corbyn, middle-ground, neo-liberalist Labour supporters going to do? Will you switch party, accept the vote or something else?

EVB – early plans (at least among MPs) laid out in yesterday’s Sunday Times. Hence my questions re the Cooperative Party. A spilt is increasingly likely, the details are currently under discussion. Labour supporters will presumably make a choice, not that it is likely to make much difference in the short term.

@thm… interesting. I’ll Google that article. A split seems the most sensible way forward and allows MP’s and voters alike an opportunity for progression in each camp, instead of stagnantion caused by fighting.. I wonder if the Green party would join with the Corbyn camp…they have the most similar values.

Hence my questions re the Cooperative Party.

Its an interesting thought that the current MP’s could effectively cross the floor to the cooperative party.

Then Corbyn would be faced with the challenge of abandoning a 90 year old electoral pact that was at the heart of the movement.

(edit, not sure if there is a cap on number of co-op mp’s in the cheltenham agreement, anyone?)

A split seems the most sensible way forward

Splitting the vote of the left is the least sensible option

and allows MP’s and voters alike an opportunity for progression in each camp,

So they will all resign en masse and stand again for the new party and see what voters think? Is it not more likely they will ignore the labour voters and also the electorate who voted for a labour MP

On the plus side the opposition will be no less effective 😉

So they will all resign en masse and stand again for the new party and see what voters think? Is it not more likely they will ignore the labour voters and also the electorate who voted for a labour MP

Well, Labour Party never made Oswald Mosely do it when he joined them…

Is there precedent for parties pledging to cooperate? A pre-election coalition?

Is there precedent for parties pledging to cooperate? A pre-election coalition?

The existing agreement between Labour and the co-operative party is probably the best precedent, no?

When JC wins (again)…what are all the anti- Corbyn, middle-ground, neo-liberalist Labour supporters going to do? Will you switch party, accept the vote or something else?

erm, yeah, I’m about as comfortable with ‘neoliberalist’ as you’d expect a traditional old leftie to be but hey, if the cap fits…

As a long-term party member, barely active these days other than via monthly standing order, I’ll stick about whilst carnage and electoral oblivion and minimum three tory ge victories ensue, until some sense of reality starts to return. Like last time. And I won’t say ‘I told you so.’

(With fptp a split only plays into the hands of those with no interest in power through parliament. And parliament is where the power is. Someone asked above about what oppositions can do – one thing is rewrite legislation in committee. Something Owen Smith has apparently done a fair bit of on benefits, corb not so much.)

Tmh I am very happy with the accuracy of my statements on the impact of of immigration and how the nature of that immigration have changed over the last 20 years as the EU has changed. Even that article showed that clearly, they just chose to get the smoke and mirrors out and confuse their analysis.

New Statesmen artcile by Chi Onwurah (ex shadow cabinet). Have we done this ? Some stunning quotes, here are just a few;

There is nothing socialist about incompetence, I said in explaining my decision to vote no-confidence in Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership. But since then, it has been made clear to me that many prefer incompetent out-of-power socialism to what they perceive to be the alternative.

Jeremy made it impossible for two of the very few BME women MPs to do their jobs properly, undermining both us and Labour’s role as the voice of opposition to the government.

Unfortunately it takes more than protesting other peoples’ prejudice to bring about change. It takes organisation, communication and action. That is what has been lacking under his leadership.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/08/labour-mp-any-other-job-jeremy-corbyn-would-have-faced-industrial-tribunal

In September Jeremy gave me the job of shadow minister for culture and the digital economy. In the January reshuffle he gave half the job to Thangam Debbonaire. As the leader, he had every right to do so; unfortunately he omitted to tell her or me. When he realised what he had done, he gave the role back to me, without telling Thangam. So far, so annoying, but to be fair uncertainty is part of every reshuffle. However Jeremy then went on for the next two months refusing my insistence that he speak to Thangam, indeed refusing to speak to either of us, whether directly or through the shadow cabinet, the whips, or his own office. No one knew what he wanted us to do, no one was clear on what we should be doing.

😐

Same cock up after same cock up reported like its news every week.

Which has been more damaging to the Labour Party Corbyn’s cock ups or the coup attempt?

Smith and Khan have said “we were not part of any coup/turmoil” (turmoil was Khan’s word) implicit criticism of those that were.

I think the Labour Party will have to wash some coup/plotters dirty linen before next leadership election. Maybe Angela Eagle can write something like

“I was told I would be sole leadership contender, they even showed me a website) angela4leader.co.uk. Then all of a sudden I was ditched, I was told that a straight man would have more chance thana gay woman”

I’d just like to ask the Jeremy enthusiasts (and for that matter, the Owen supporters) on here, given that the rag taggle embarrassment that is the Labour Party and it’s forthcoming adoption of policies designed to turn the UK into the next Socialist failed state, hasn’t a hope in hell of being elected, of what use is it?

Can I respond with a few questions of my own woppit…

Is all of this hatred for Corbyn a modern day equivalent of the JFK assassination? Thousands of Neo-Con Oswald’s cowering feverishly at their computer screens ?

Do people find the idea of equal rights for poorer people as abhorrent as people found the idea of equal rights for african americans?

Of what use is the desire to hold back the tide of progress?

No Yunki (if I may reply) its much simpler, much much simpler

The leader of HM Opposition is an important job
The current incumbent is not up to the task and is unable to fulfil this part of his mandate effectively
A new leader is required – obviously
But the options appear very limited/non-existent
Hence the problem….

The rest is just noise, exaggerated massively for effect.

“progress” implies an improvement/step forward. Current debacle is just the opposite.

cool 🙂

Yunki Corbyn has far too much baggage, no suitable leadership skills (none, zero), is a magnate for those ready to dish out agressive abuse to his opponents and the only chance the extreme left have of gaining any influence by hijacking a national political party. If the Greens or SWP had any real popularity they would be a real political force.

We live in one of the most egalitarian and libertarian countries in the world. Full stop. We already have equal opportunities in education, in health care and in our justice system. There will always be differences in how successful people are, not least based upon the real life education and environment parents provide. The world is changing rapidly, its population growing exponentially. There are many people living with very little, what we have we are very forunate to have and we should recognise this and understand that there is a relatively unlimited supply of cheap labour willing to do all our jobs.

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there millions of citizens of other poorer countries (inside and outside the EU) who are so keen to come here ?

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there millions of citizens of other poorer countries (inside and outside the EU) who are so keen to come here ?

Because of the amazing mountain bike trails?

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there

Are you denying that there’s an inequality problem?

How much inequality is ok?

Jamba facts part 47.

We donot live in one of the most equal societies on earth. Ours is very unequal compared to most of Europe. We do not have equal opportunities in healthcare education or the justice system. In all those with money have better outcomes.

Corbyn is not of the far left

Greens hold political power in Scotland.

“We live in one of the most egalitarian and libertarian countries in the world. Full stop.”

😆

How can I become Head of State?

“We already have equal opportunities in education, in health care and in our justice system.”

😆

If I want to send my children to Eton but have no money, how can I do that?

If I have an illness that isn’t life threatening, what’s the quickest way to get treatment?

If I’m non-white, female, disabled and/or gay, why am I far less likely to get paid the same as a straight, able bodied white man?

You really don’t have a clue about the world the rest of us live in, Jamby. Not a clue. 🙄

You really don’t have a clue about the world the rest of us live in, Jamby. Not a clue.

I honestly think that’s a key driver for right-wing ideology.

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there millions of citizens of other poorer countries (inside and outside the EU) who are so keen to come here ?

Err..Because they aren’t being bombed?

If a split does happpen, who owns the moniker of ‘Labour Party’?

Any MP wandering over to a ‘Cooperative party’ is risking their own seat. I’ve worked on many an election and the typical voter (i.e. not STW) will vote for the party name, not the individual. You would lose an awful lot of votes by using a different name.

“If a split does happpen, who owns the moniker of ‘Labour Party’?”

The Labour party and it’s members. Not those who decide to ignore the mandate of the elected leader, and leave. Because they’d be 80 or so people, against hundreds of thousands.

Pretty simple really.

People come here for the age old reason of opportunity. Also on the whole the UK is a pretty nice place to live, it doesn’t mean it is perfect though and we should stop trying to improve it. However, IMO Corbyn doesn’t have the answers to improve it.

“However, IMO Corbyn doesn’t have the answers to improve it.”

He’s provided plenty of ‘answers’, which the mainstream media etc have routinely ignored. Answers so good, that Owen Smith has almost universally ‘adopted’ them. 😆

As for ‘leadership’; it’s clear that Corbyns aim was to create the necessary schism that will see Labour return to the left, and the Blairites left out in the political wilderness. He’s doing a fantastic job at that, and gaining increasing party support. No wonder the right are so scared of him!

any MP wandering over to a ‘Cooperative party’ is risking their own seat. I’ve worked on many an election and the typical voter (i.e. not STW) will vote for the party name, not the individual. You would lose an awful lot of votes by using a different name.

Yes, but srely that’s why they are already officially listed as “Labour and Cooperative party candidate” and get to use the labour emblem on the ballot paper

I love when people attack Jambas for his abuse of facts and then do exactly the same thing! The hypocrisy is breathtaking although not unusual

e most equal societies on earth. Ours is very unequal compared to most of Europe. We do not have equal opportunities in healthcare education or the justice system. In all those with money have better outcomes.

A simple check of the facts illustrates that our level of income inequality is almost exactly on the EU average. On top of this our cash benefits systems further reduces the level of inequality in disposable income, although the impact of this is variable over time. It’s a shame for the revisionists that the reality is so far removed from their rhetoric.

Eton? Apply for a shcolarhsip or bursary. Approx 1/3 of pupils at independent schools receive financial support. The uniform looks a little uncomfortable though, so perhaps wouldn’t recommend it!!

Health? How do you manage unlimited demands with limited supply? At the most basic level you can ration by waiting, price or a combination of the two, We use the combination approach and apparently we have the best system in the world, or so the medics tell me. Jezza has no magic bullet for that one.

ok…

I dunno enough politics to ascertain whether or not Corbyn has the potential to be a good leader, although the backlash from the right leaning contingency would seem to indicate that he is a massive threat 🙂 and I dunno if he could ever wield enough power to address this country’s inequality issues

What I’m really interested in is why the most outspoken folk on here that are opposed to greater equality, deny equality issues or are completely indifferent are so desperately keen to protect the interests of the wealthy elite?
What do you hope to achieve with antiquated ‘blame the poor’ schtick?

Surely there aren’t that many toffs on the forum?

what gives?
what’s your motivation?

There clearly isn’t a shortage of funds, it’s just that there’s a relatively small group of very sick puppies that have an unhealthy obsession with hording, and they happen to privileged enough to horde cash

“A simple check of the facts”

Which ‘facts’ are those then?

A simple look around the real world, illustrates that this is a nonsense.

“Eton? Apply for a shcolarhsip or bursary.”

And statements like this shows just how out of touch you are with reality. That you clearly didn’t get my point, proves this. 🙄

I won’t bother with any other genuine facts. You can’t even deal with the made up ones. 😆

What I’m really interested in is why the most outspoken folk on here that are opposed to greater equality, deny equality issues or are completely indifferent are so desperately keen to protect the interests of the wealthy elite?

Any evidence of this ? Inaccurate points re equality have been addressed as they should be, otherwise I see little evidence of what you suggest, We live in a society with a progressive tax system that plays an important (if imperfect) role in addressing inequality of income outcomes. Of course, all of this assumes that equality of outcome is a moral absolute….(which it isn’t)

I think you will find that like most politics in the UK there is broad consensus re the ends but marginal differences in the means, That’s a characteristic of our society.