innovating
do they still 'innovate' through reverse engineering, or do they actually innovate now
Chat Forum
Hello I'm in China
-
Posted 4 months ago #
-
If Giant bicycles are anything to go by they innovate without any need for reverse engineering. Ask Brant, he's the one doing a tour of Chinese design offices and manufacturing facilities. Where else in the world can you find much of that stuff on the DealExtreme site? If you can find it elsewhere it's someone like Brant that sells it having chosen a design, personalised it and asked the chinese to put his stickers on their product.
What's inside all those expensive British bicycle lights? Chinese designed and built components.
Posted 4 months ago # -
I have a feeling the Chinese are not being given enough credit.* And that probably suits them just fine.
* Not in the financial sense.
Posted 4 months ago # -
If patent filings are any indicator of how innovative a country is then China is innovating lots. Though curiously only a small proportion are filed abroad. Probably only the the most significant innovations. Let's not forget the Americans have umpteen patents for the unequal quadrangle that the European don't feel the need for.
Posted 4 months ago # -
No, you said this, Molgrips:
Yes, which wasn't what you originally suggested.
We do innovate well, they do make stuff well. That's not to say that they can't innovate, of course, just that we do it well.
This debate really isn't going anywhere, you don't have any real facts or experience yet you seem to be trying to make it into an adversarial debate rather than a general discussion about the Chinese economy.
Posted 4 months ago # -
No because my comment was mainly aimed at Retrodirect, Molgrips. Thisisnotaspoon justified making it plural but you were the one that felt targeted. Funny that. As for adversarial, I have no hesitation in suggesting you reread your own posts.
Posted 4 months ago # -
I don't need to re-read your own posts, I know what they say and yet I still think you are being adversarial. Lots of good posts on here and interesting insight into the economics of outsourced production. None of them from you - you just seem to want me to admit that we're all doomed.
I of course don't know what's going to happen, but I would expect we'd reach a happy medium with economies co-operating whilst playing to their strengths. It's in everyone's best interests of course.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Now you're getting personal in addition to being adversarial and insulting my inteligence, Molgrips. I really do suggest you reread your own posts.
I havzen't asked you to admit anything, I have simply provided information that demonstrates that the Chinese can innovate and have money to make money with as well as being able to manufacture cheaply which puts them in a very strong position, dominant even.
If you look back it was me that started the deabte on out-sourced production with my first post and then a balance of payments graph.
Posted 4 months ago # -
I know a company that already does that in the uk for other products and is looking to diversify.
Very nice set up and will Jig and CNC Laser profile tubes direct from CAD data
I doubt 1000 frames a year would trouble them either
I wouldn't want to build 1000 frames fella because there's no profit in it.I know what your saying in terms of buisnesses with the equipment already being out there but this also brings with it other problems.
I was trying to highlight the fact that If you want a complete 853 frame built here the tube cost is roughly just under 200 quid ,even using the other tubes in the range 725 631 etc at Qty prices you still are biting a large chunk of £110(but lets be honest the 853 sticker is what people want)So to compete with cheap labour you could only use modern manufacturing and eliminate or minimise the fabrication cost it's not impossible but to do it for something as simple as a bicycle frame becomes quite a piece of value engineering. This hasn't included welding braze ons ,paint prep alignment or QC
BUT YOU CAN BUY A VERY POPULAR FRAME FOR 199 QUID
When you move up to Carbon and TI then yes the spreadsheet full of numbers pops out a figure that you can compete at a price which you might be able to get away with using a made in britain price tag and wouldn't be a million miles away from a Thai/Chi price
But then again only if your a maniac trying to prove a point you might eek a living you are going to make from it isn't going to make you rich by any means but might give you a sense of pride
I was told by someone much wiser than me who understands the steel market the best way is to add value to your product. If that's geometry or niche or whatever the only real way for a UK guy to manufacture frames here and make money is to build custom frame's to fit each customer and rely on the skill There's still an contingent of people who will be loyal to the handcrafted bike frame but unfortunately unlike the USA the young guns aren't coming through or are still learning
Now if you could offer every customer a production frame which was custom made just for them that might add value.
But then again I think thermoplastics will return very soon add some 3d braids and the whole carbon market will be a cash cow again
Posted 4 months ago # -
If Giant bicycles are anything to go by they innovate without any need for reverse engineering
Pretty poor example considering they stole the DW link design. They do pretty much nick every design they are asked to build.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Comp Pro
We need to talk, are you not getting my emails, we have some great ideas bubbling away and we need to meet up
Posted 4 months ago # -
I have simply provided information that demonstrates that the Chinese can innovate
I most expressly did not say that the Chinese can't innovate.
Posted 4 months ago # -
can they Chinnovate?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Comp Pro
We need to talk, are you not getting my emails, we have some great ideas bubbling away and we need to meet up
No will check now.
Posted 4 months ago # -
The DW link design is one of those many unequal quadrangles that frankly don't deserve a patent. Four bars were used on competition cars for years before Horst put one on a bike. Have a look at the 1959 Mini front suspension, it's a four bar. Short links, long links, rocking up, rocking down. They're all unequal quadrangles with a hinge at each corner and the Greeks knew how to draw them. Anyhow, in Europe you can put your pivots where you want and sell your bike without worrying about those American patents.
Intellectual property is all very well but should the Sketchamatic designer get royalties on Apple's thing that looks like the thing the guys in Star Trek paraded around with and why are Trek bicycles not paying royalties to the Star Trek people? The patents business is another one that needs some sorting out that goes beyond a series of law suits.
Edit: I didn't say you did, Molgrips, read again please, I said the Chinese are good at innovating.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Sorry educator but I trust the integrity and ability of the professional US patent office to judge the worthiness of patent protection over some bloke on the interweb. It's a shame that small innovators like weagle can still get trampled only big corporations in this day and age IMHO.
Posted 4 months ago # -
It's not some bloke on the Internet, it's the European patents people that haven't deemed four-bar designs worthy of a patent (though the Renault NRS one applies in Europe I think). It's a form of protectionism that regularly gets challenged in various courts in various countries. German courts recently ruled against Samsung's computer thing that looks too much like Apple's according to the court.
Posted 4 months ago # -
The US patent system has different rules. You can patent an idea in the US, I think here it has to be an actual thing.
Amazon patented one-click ordering in the US, they couldn't do it here.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Edit: I didn't say you did, Molgrips, read again please
Well you kept telling me they could, which would stronly imply that you thought I was saying the opposite.
And I don't know if you realise that saying 'please read again' is implying that I'm being stupid, and is passive-aggressive.
But anyway, who cares? Let's talk about manufacturing.
Posted 4 months ago # -
You care, Molgrips.
"let us...let them"
I stated the Chinese were doing both very well in response. I could have read all sorts of things into your "us" and "them" division but didn't. I simply stated the Chinese are successfully doing both which doesn't imply anything at all.
"Please read again" is a polite way of saying "you're putting words in my mouth again, you're acusing me of saying things I have not, you're trying to make me out to be a villain by distorting what I have said".
I'd expect a more intelligent post from you Edukator.
Now what were you implying when you wrote that on page 4, Molgrips? I think most people would agree that you're saying my post was stupid. I think it's better to disagree and put up a solid counter argument than cast aspersions on the intelligence of one's "adversary".
Anyhow, that balance of payments graph is going to continue its downward trend for as long as much of what you buy has "made in China/Taiwan" on it.
Posted 4 months ago # -
So mutual misunderstanding then. I was retaliating to you as you were retaliating to me.
That graph you posted - what exactly is the significance? We pay out more money than we receive? But we also make money here, don't we.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Edukator, why are you prolonging the argument when mol was obviously trying to let it go?
Time to be nice.
Posted 4 months ago # -
It's not some bloke on the Internet, it's the European patents people that haven't deemed four-bar designs worthy of a patent
I doubt specialized are too bothered about that, the US market would be the better one to have.
I thought that the DW patent stood up in Europe though?Posted 4 months ago # -
We still have 45 wage packets to pay this month - be it made in uk / italy / usa / taiwan / china .
We currently assemble around 4000 bikes in the UK - thats 4000 more than most bicycle companies - thats 5 full time cytec mechanics , well 4 and Mark Lovatt who is really a 1.5 .
We don't live in France .
We do create employment for British people - designers , accountants , mechanics , pick packers , returns , goods in , marketing , finance , HR , and a great long list that seems to get bigger (by the way we have a few jobs going if anyone is looking - returns / showroom / pick pack / goods in).
We do work again with Roberto Billato who in 1988 was my first ever frame supplier and one of the renowned Italian frame builders of the last generation who kept his Italian production until his business disappeared when both the US and Italian brands he produced for went "offshore". He then worked for Museeuw and left .
We produce the on-one slackest headset in the UK , we do assemble with Hope headsets / seat posts , we do assemble bikes with Middleburn cranks - all manufactured in the UK and we give these companies regular ongoing orders . We did design our stealth TT bars with Nick Hamilton at SERG .
We have sponsored and supported a number of British athletes both pro and amateur going back 20 years - Nick Craig , Spencer Smith 3 time world triathlon champ , Julie Dibens world xterra champ , Ryan Mullen junior champ , Ian Stannard now with sky , John Tanner twice british pro champion , Mark Lovatt 6 time winner of the tour of the peak , Wayne Randle commonwealth bronze medalist , Paul Curran legend of british cycling , Rob Harris national road champion , Kev Dawson 9 times BBAR , Cat Morrison world duathlon champion , Ray Eden points winner Ras , not to mention The trials kings Danny Holroyd etc .
Posted 4 months ago # -
You don't employ anyone who has a scooby about customer service.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Will someone PLEASE send the Onion a frame. Any frame. A picture frame. A subframe. Damn it I'll send him my Scandal frame myself!
But anything to stop him whining!!!!
Posted 4 months ago # -
Posted 4 months ago # -
Ah yes...customer service...daveplanetx, could I pop along to your stand at the london bike show with a returns item and save some postage by handing it over?
Posted 4 months ago # -
Is this seriously six pages of bitching about China?
Sorry, but I can't be assed to read it all
Posted 4 months ago # -
Best not drop off a returns at a show , thats a very bad idea, best to follow our returns process
Sorry our customer service has not been good for you , we are trying hard in general . Sometimes stuff slips through . Brant has tried to pick it up for you , but if you want me to intervene ping me the details by pm please and I will do so as well .
I think its a little unfair to tarnish our company and entire customer service team with we "don't employ anyone with a scooby about customer service" - its maybe a touch on the harsh side .Posted 4 months ago # -
hup
Posted 4 months ago # -
I'm going to say PX customer service were great for me. They were going to ship some stuff to my folks to bring to me in Luxembourg and for whatever reason didn't manage to get it out. The nice chap at customer service apologised and then had them shipped to me here instead for no extra charge. Very happy but then again I've never had any problems with PX/OnOne.
Posted 4 months ago # -
There is definately someone working there with a scooby about customer service as I've been treated very well whenever I returned stuff for refund or repair.
Certainly better than my local Fiat deaer anyway...Posted 4 months ago # -
Is this seriously six pages of bitching about China?
No.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Compositepro:
Sorry I wasnt having a dig I am in agreement with you, that Post was more aimed at 18bikes / Brant / DaveplanetX if they wanted to explore an alternative higher volume solution here in the uk ?
They are a one stop shop, machining / laser profiling / Fabrication / powdercoating etc and for effectively a T45 tubeset might be something to consider ?
Posted 4 months ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.
