He says the steepness of the seat angle and the seat position make it climb better than most bikes and as before, it’ll not be a lightweight frame as its simply got more material in it than most.

Standard 2013 Nicolai Ion 16 frame is 7.08lbs/3.2 kg (Size M, black anodize, w/o shock http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Nicolai-Ion-16-review-2013.html…

Cheers. Like I said, weight isn’t the decider, but no matter how well designed a bike is if it’s a proper porker it’ll effect climbing on a long ascent. 3.2(ish) plus shock doesn’t sound too bad to me for a long travel frame so it’s still in the running (not much more than a Transition Covert). As I said, I don’t tend to race up climbs, they’re mainly there to get me to the top for the fun stuff.

Tom KP

With such a slack head angle, how would putting on a high rise handlebar affect the riding postion?

Like many have said here , climbs nicely and amazing at high speed on the way down,
did not have much time to get used to it but found tight turns a bit weird though.

Pinion gerbox was not to my liking either, pity as I had wanted one for ages..

Bit OT, but has anyone tried short-shocking a Helius CC with a 190×50?

nice or nasty?

He didn’t tell us the weight and pointed out that heavier bikes have better sprung to unsprung mass ratios explaining how in the past he’s filled some frames with lead weights and had better results with them than lighter ones.

I’m sorry but isn’t that a load of bollocks?

iffoverload – Pinion gerbox was not to my liking either, pity as I had wanted one for ages..

I’d like to try a pinion but I think I prefer the effigar (especially now they have a proper trigger shifter) and you have to accept that gearboxes are different so will fell to standard gears

Stevet1 – I’m sorry but isn’t that a load of bollocks?

Nope, its well documented that within reason a heavier bike will hold its line better, also a larger sprung mass provides more resistance against the unsprung so if you hit a bump the frame and the rider are more likely to stay where they are while the wheels mover over the bump.

I would have thought it would have been improved performance on descents rather than climbing (depending on the weight). I know our old TR450 ride better than any other bike I’ve ever ridden (DH bike) even compared to newer, lighter bikes as that had all the weight low down and central.

I can’t imagine a much heavier bike climbing better. Might be more stable and planted, but on a long slog you’re still going to be expending more energy compared to the same frame without the extra weight.

I personally think that a bike around 30lbs is light for what I need, but I wouldn’t want anything over 35lbs for general trail riding/enduro/all mountain (current bike is 35lbs and it rides as I want it). But going for a new bike I’d want to stay around about 32lbs without compromising the strength of the components and frame.

Tom KP.

I think the issue there is the Geometron has a really steep seat tube so that counteracts any minor weight gain and as said further up, I’d estimate the largest size weighing less than my 32.5lbs bike.

Its not so much that heavy bikes climb poorly, more that poorly climbing bikes tend to be heavy.

@zero cool Mine is 31lbs currently. Frame is 3.4kg with hardware without shock.

I’m running CK hubs, magic Mary and minion, alloy bar and x2 shock, hope cranks so light but not the lightest stuff I have.

I can be a weight weenie. I have made it lighter using my crossmax XL pro wheels I run with dean easy in the rear and Ardent race rear, xtr cranks, renthal carbon bar.

You could run it with a much lighter rear shock, a current rp23 evol would still work well saving another 200g. Using an xx1 cassette helps too.

For Trail duties basically you can run it a hair under 30lbs without any real compromise on durability.

Nicolai are sending a GPI over in the M/Longer size the next month for us to build up and make available as a demo bike, I’ll be the custodian and make it available to test either at Mojo or on home trails with me. The same applies to the std bike so back to back tests will be possible. This is happening now.

There is still expected to be a trigger shifter available for the pinion box in the first quarter of next year. If not, Marcel at Nicolai has said to me that they will produce one for it. The grip shift is fine in reality but I too would probably prefer a trigger…I’d probably prefer a Di2 style electric shifter but that might be a stretch, although there is plenty of room in the gearbox housing.

You can also increase or decrease front or rear travel if that suits you rear 140-175mm I recollect. Min at the front is 160 really.

And within sensible parameters I.e. Not 10lbs difference, bike weight makes little difference to actual energy expended climbing, far less so than tyre width/pressures/compound.

Typically 3 lb on a bike with a typical 80kg/175lb rider on a 2hr 300m climb you’d expend an additional 80kcals. Which is quite surprising isn’t it. Of course if you have to carry it it’s a bugger.

But increasing weight by 3 out of 175lb is a small percentage.

If not, Marcel at Nicolai has said to me that they will produce one for it.

That’s a bold statement, if Pinion haven’t managed to make one themselves, I’d assume that its because it cannot be done.

Nope, its well documented that within reason a heavier bike will hold its line better, also a larger sprung mass provides more resistance against the unsprung so if you hit a bump the frame and the rider are more likely to stay where they are while the wheels mover over the bump.

I’m still calling bollocks. You couldn’t add enough weight to the frame to make anywhere near the kind of difference you would need. Also – someone should really tell all those DH teams with Carbon frames and air forks and wotnot.
If all you wanted to do was straightline plough through a load of rocks then maybe you have a point but in the real world I can’t see it so I’m calling it out.

Carbon swingarms and air sprung forks decrease unsprung mass.
How much difference do you need?
Also what is this wotnot and is it SRAM or Shimano compatible?

Yeah, decreasing unsprung is the same as increasing sprung (sort of) plus the whole point of this bike is that the designer is telling all those downhill teams something… Their geometry can be adapted successfully for trail riding.

Also what has going in a straight line got to do with anything? No one ever said “my bike is too heavy, it wont go round corners”

How much difference do you need?

Any positive difference

Also what has going in a straight line got to do with anything? No one ever said “my bike is too heavy, it wont go round corners”

A larger mass is harder to change direction. Which I guess is where you (or CP) are saying any potential benefits might come from in holding a line.

Please cite me any example in MTB racing where someone has added weights to there bike solely for the purpose of increasing the sprung mass.

35lb bike does not feel heavy till you ride a sub 30lb bike 😉

5lbs is not a lot of weight but it is a 14% weight difference

if you want stability dual ply tyres are your answer.

5lbs is not a 14% difference is the weight of the overall object being propelled. Only the bike, which in itself is only abut 17% of your average, fit , 6ft rider.

Its also weight saved usually in the least important part, the frame. as mentioned reducing unsprung mass gives the most benefits.
and the example is CP adding lead to some DH bikes experimenting with increases in sprung mass and the effect on suspension performance.

Kinda off topic here anyways…just for a change….if you want a carbon framed, lighter bike and think thats important to your riding enjoyment, or are bothered by a 30lb bike. look elsewhere. simples. The choice is there.

Which I guess is where you (or CP) are saying any potential benefits might come from in holding a line

As in holding a horizontal line, not as in turning corners. ie not getting thrown all over the shop.

if you want a carbon framed, lighter bike and think thats important to your riding enjoyment, or are bothered by a 30lb bike. look elsewhere. simples. The choice is there.

This, this and more this. if you perceive benefits are to be had through the reduction of weight, buy a bike designed around that. If you perceive benefits are to be had through progressive geometry, then buy a bike designed around that.

Having spent 2 hours with Chris Porter answering all sorts of questions, his arguments are very convincing. More convincing to me than putting an already good rider on a bike and showing me DH results sheets.

The proof of the pudding is in the riding with this bike. Not everyone will like it, thats for sure. A lot of people will love it.

Chris, and finally Nicolai, has realised this which is why he wanted to offer these demo’s. I’m passionate about bike design anyway and in particular this direction, have been for a few years. Which is why I’m trying to answer questions objectively and to get the bikes around the country to ride with interested people on their home trails or where they want to ride, helping with set up and explaining the differences etc. letting them ride back to back different sizes if they aren’t sure and with their own bikes if they want that comparison.

I’m off to Hebden to do just that this weekend in fact. Should be fun.

As I said, for a 160(ish) bike I consider 32lbs to be a light bike and sub-30 to be lighter than I’ll ever need. I was mainly asking about the weight because no one has really mentioned it appart from saying it’s heavier than most bikes but still rides well and you don’t notice it. Normally when people say things like this without giving numbers the bike turns out to be a complete anchor

factoring the rider into the weight of a bike is kinda strange IMO. 😕

the rider is a dynamic active component and the same rider on a different weight bike will notice a difference of a few lbs… or to use numbers.. of nearly 1/5 of the bikes weight.

and I’d say riding enjoyment does not depend on anything other than the rider, if you need a weighty bike to have fun though thats fine 😉

Please cite me any example in MTB racing where someone has added weights to there bike solely for the purpose of increasing the sprung mass

if you perceive benefits are to be had through the reduction of weight, buy a bike designed around that. If you perceive benefits are to be had through progressive geometry, then buy a bike designed around that.

Having spent 2 hours with Chris Porter answering all sorts of questions, his arguments are very convincing. More convincing to me than putting an already good rider on a bike and showing me DH results sheets.

I’ll take that as you can’t, because I doubt it’s ever happened.
I don’t want to derail this thread, I’m more than appreciative of people pushing the boundaries and backing them up with timed runs etc. And weight is definitely not my main concern, a 30 or 32lb trail bike would not bother me. BUT the point I wanted to pick up on was your belief that adding unnecessary weight to a bike would make it better. I just do not believe that to be true. And with that I will leave it, I’m still following this thread as I am honestly interested in how the longer TT /slacker head angle stuff works out.

Steve1, Chris did add lead weights near to the BB to the team DH bikes he was supporting, experimenting with the effect on suspension and performance.
Quote from Paul Aston’ Pinkbike Geometron review “Mojo Suspension and Chris Porter have a history of ruffling feathers: Remember the PVC style skinsuits that popped up at the Fort William World Cup in 2008? Technology taken from ski racing that gave two team riders their best results ever? What about strapping lead weights to his racer’s bikes to improve the sprung – unsprung mass ratio?”

I do not believe a heavier bike is better. I do however believe a bike can be too light for descending duties to be ‘settled’

I’m off to Hebden to do just that this weekend in fact. Should be fun.

Have you seen the forecast 🙂

Stevet1 – Member
I’m still following this thread as I am honestly interested in how the longer TT /slacker head angle stuff works out.

don’t forget the longer chainstays.

everyone always forgets the longer chainstays…

…and the steep seat angle. I was bored of typing by that point.

Recent Pinkbike interview with Jared Graves about his SB5C enduro race bike:

“Even with the chunky wheels on it, I would take a guess that it’s not more than 27 pounds, and to me, on high speed, rough stuff, it’s still too light. I might even be looking at ways to add weight to my bike for racing, especially if there’s more and more high-speed rough stuff. It just starts feeling really unstable if it’s too light, so I don’t know why people bother trying to save 20 grams here and there – it just seems ridiculous.”

oh dear, Hebden does look a bit biblical at the weekend!

What’s at Hebden? Full on demo? Good trails?

Worth making a weekend of it maybe?

To be blunt, Chris Porter isn’t always right; sometimes he is, but sometimes he’s just making it up. See: clutch mechs, 29ers can’t brake and need £2500 wheels. And stuff where he’s just contradicted himself, 650b being inferior to 26 inch until the day he decided to make a 650b bike when it suddenly became better, 29ers rolling over bumps better then suddenly not.

This doesn’t mean he’s wrong here but it does mean “Chris says so and explained it very well” is basically worthless, he’s very good at making nonsense seem plausible. (he still claims Neko Mulally’s chainless run as evidence for his clutch mech theory- despite Neko saying it was nothing of the sort, frinstance)

Inspired by this I’ve just ordered an -2 deg Works headset for my medium Spitfire as an experiment. Combined with dropping the forks to 150mm that’ll give the following geometry:

64.1 HA
74.6 SA
429mm reach
335mm BB height
441mm chainstay
1190mm wheelbase

He is willing to put his ideas to the test though.
He co/designed a dh bike with Orange with a massively forward positioned pivot point that Julien Camellini rode on the WC series (and choose to continue riding even after it cracked).
His dh bike with a sub 300mm bb height,150mm cranks and an integrated skid plate was’nt as successful (although it was bonkers to ride 🙂 )

He is willing to put his ideas to the test though.

You would though wouldn’t you? I know I would. If I had the access that he has to hardware and knowledge and quality trails and riders to guinea pigs things on. I’d just sit there throwing shit at the wall until something stuck. It would be fun if nothing else.

I disagree with a lot of stuff he’s come out with in the past. He definitely has a flair for the dramatic and states his opinions as fact. He clearly likes ruffling feathers. Ultimately though, I like his enthusiasm and I’m glad he can do what he does. Someone has to.

I really like the Geometron though, I think they’ve hit the nail on the head. I just need to get my leg over one but they’re all bloody miles away.

Rorschach – Member
He is willing to put his ideas to the test though.
He co/designed a dh bike with Orange with a massively forward positioned pivot point that Julien Camellini rode on the WC series (and choose to continue riding even after it cracked).

I don’t always agree with the things he comes out with but the fact he’s willing to do these experiments is great. It’s proper empirical testing, thinking “what if?”, building it, testing it and pushing the boundaries.

The clutch mech thing may have a grain of truth in it (it makes some sense) but I’d imagine the effects are virtually negligible as seen by the wheel/swingarm but then I have no evidence for this. CP may have tested it (though off road testing is always going to be somewhat hard to do as there are so many variables). It is at least a constant and only in the compression direction so can easily be allowed for in the shot tune.
You can’t fault his enthusiasm

I’ll definitely have a Geometron when they come around 2nd hand and are a price I’m willing to pay for a frame. They any good with 26″?

His dh bike with a sub 300mm bb height,150mm cranks and an integrated skid plate wasn’t as successful (although it was bonkers to ride )

Love the sound of this thing – where do I get one? (as if I need another DH bike I won’t ever ride) 😆

When I saw Jedi earlier this year he mentioned that he leaves the clutch switched off on his mech because he doesn’t like how it affects the feel of the suspension.

you can adjust the clutch.

I don’t think Nicolai deliberately make there bikes a bit heavy for performance purposes. It’s more that they prioritise durability and use aluminium.

Recent Pinkbike interview with Jared Graves about his SB5C enduro race bike:

“Even with the chunky wheels on it, I would take a guess that it’s not more than 27 pounds, and to me, on high speed, rough stuff, it’s still too light. I might even be looking at ways to add weight to my bike for racing, especially if there’s more and more high-speed rough stuff. It just starts feeling really unstable if it’s too light

Pfft Jared Graves – what does he know. 😀

It’s more that they prioritise durability and use aluminium

I’ve always explained it as them building to an engineering strength target and not a target weight for marketing…. They’re rarely light compared to the competition but they don’t break very often and they ride superbly.

The weight debate is interesting. I’ve ridden a lot of Nicolai’s and a lot of hub and gearbox equipped bikes – a few points that haven’t been made above –

– the location of the weight makes a difference. my Pinion Helius is heavier than the Helius I had with a Rohloff but it feels lighter. Obviously the front/back weight distribution has changed but that’s actually the easiest to adapt to – I could still lift/drop the rear heavy bike.

– The suspension definitely feels significantly with a better balance of sprung to unsprung weight (rohloff to light back wheel with aluminium single sprocket) but that’s far more about REMOVING weight from the wheel than adding it to the frame

– the location of weight makes a difference. The Pinion has a lot of weight around the bottom bracket – it’s not just central, it’s low. That’s probably got a lot more to do with Chris Porter’s lead weights than sprung/unsprung. Cornering on the Pinion is great but it does feel odd when you first get on it. The old Nicoai Nucleon with a Rohloff based gearbox accentuated the weight effects even more – a 40lb 160mm travel bike but low central weight meant it didn’t feel like it (though it was far too heavy). Ride a bike with weight higher up (a big saddlepack for instance or a seatpost rack) and it’s very different.

If not, Marcel at Nicolai has said to me that they will produce one for it.
That’s a bold statement, if Pinion haven’t managed to make one themselves, I’d assume that its because it cannot be done.

It’s not that hard to make some sort of trigger shifter for a pull pull gearbox – someone’s made one for Rohloff. The question is more whether it’s an improvement. You’re never going to get the light touch ‘release’ shifting of a conventional trigger shifter though. Electronic shifting would be the answer but difficult to get right in terms of sealing (especially for a small company with less R&D budget).

Sharkattack. The trip to Hebden is a full demo, although without the wealth of spec changes you would have access to if you went to BPW with Chris and paid for it.

I am travelling to Hebden to meet a guy there and I’m taking a demo bike, set up for him, they are good trails, I have a few local friends that can guide and he will back to back his current bike, I will help with set up etc. So yes a full demo.

The plan is to offer this to people that are seriously interested in the bike as it’s the only way to really know if it is for you. So I’m helping Chris out where I’m nearer than he is.

I’ve been involved with the evolution of the design and had one of my own for a while now, as mentioned having previously had custom iterations of similar bikes moving in this direction
I also did the original design for the Ion 15 with Nicolai, a 29er I still love, that makes the following look kinda high and steep. Chris now has a Geometron 29er, which Seb Stott rode recently..CP isn’t keen, but that’s not to say others may not prefer it.

I’m passionate about getting people on good bikes that are right for them, I’m not paid, I get to ride with different people on new trails and talk bikes, what’s not to like for me.
For Chris I’ve provided feedback on how the bike can be improved and refined, that should see fruit in subsequent batches, I’d like to no I provide a bit of independent balance and objectivity and I have an open mind as to what’s good or works, accepting that it’s not the same for everyone, I don’t agree with everything that Chris says by a long shot, but he has a lot of experience and knowledge in lots of relevant areas and he does love to experiment.

On the clutch mech thing. I can tell a significant difference in the performance of my suspension with my clutch off. I was sceptical at first, but I can. Strangely the way this bike encourages you to ride has lead me to be off the back brake more which in turn leads to a fairly quiet rear even clutchless.

To make the point re Chris though, I draw the line at removing the O ring seals for the suspension bearings to reduce stiction further 😉

Simon makes some good points about the gearbox too. The trigger development is driven by consumer demand not functionality. In many ways the twist shift complements some of the key advantages of a gearbox.(that doesn’t rant to say I like it, though it’s fine)

Sharkattack If you mail me, via my email in profile, perhaps a we can sort something out in the new year.