[Closed] Americans. Are they really all religious ?

I occasionally lurk on some guitar forums and on there, musical god bothering really is the norm for those from the US. Over here, people in bands play in pubs. Over there, people in bands play in church. You also get a lot of the "[i]What delay pedal for praise and worship?...[/i]" nonsense.

The most shocking part of that statement is that 7% of the science academy are religious. How can you be part of an organisation that essentially proves the non-existance of any higher authority and still be religious?

What how does science prove gods non-existence? Seems a rather inflammatory statement to me

Secularism is written into the American constitution

Not exactly. Disestablishment is written into it. It doesn't tell you to be secular, it says they won't tell you what religion to be.

interestingly the ones that founded America were much more Puritan than the folk they left in the UK

Hmm, careful here, perhaps a little more reading on American history? Puritans founded colonies in New England, but even the original 13 colonies contained much more than New England. Many many groups contributed to the early nation, and its development to today.

I think the constitution does not so much advocate secularism as it does that church and state should be separate, which is different.

Yes its what I meant (and understood)however its a busy Friday here in the office!

Disestablishment is written into it. It doesn't tell you to be secular, it says they won't tell you what religion to be.

As above.

How can you be part of an organisation that essentially proves the non-existance of any higher authority and still be religious?

I know what you mean however never underestimate a persons ability to "compartmentalise"

Most scientists aren't researching the origins of the universe, btw.

Nobby - Member

Several years ago I worked for an American co. & spent several weeks each year over there. This subject came up more than once - usually because they were interested in why the church had declined in the UK. A few things have stuck in my mind:

In many States, it is seen as 'normal' to attend church on Sunday irrelevant of your beliefs, therefore folk do.

It was more common for them to say "I believe in God" rather than "I'm religious".

Practicing Christians will not use phrases such as "Oh my God" as this is seen as edging toward blasphemy - you are more likely to hear "Oh my gosh" from them.

This was a decade ago so things may well have changed - and this was from experience in New York & Michigan so could well be local viewpoints.

my experience broadly similar with some other states thrown in - mostly more conservative and if you stayed over a weekend then an invite to attend church with your colleagues was what you got - from expereince of my US colleagues coming to UK then many would have already checked out local church services and would just want to know easiest way to get there (read as "will you come along and bring the kids")

My wife's family are mostly religious, but they don't attend church when they're visiting. My mother in law asked about local Catholic churches, but out of curiosity as much as anything else, and we never ended up going. Partly because I had no idea where the nearest Catholic church was 🙂

You all forgetting your history lessons...

We kicked them out because they were religious - the whole country is built upon that foundation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrims_(Plymouth_Colony)

By establishing any scientific principle, you're establishing the logical reasoning behind why it happens. It's no longer gods will and unless god is messing with us it's going to be the result of some severely complex atomic, chemical, biological etc. interactions'.

That's just the science though, think about the state of mind of someone who believes that god exists in whatever form, who is investigating something scientific like say.... gravity. That person is delving into the fine detail of god's grand plan. How far do you think they'll take that? How much do you think they'll be influenced by their beliefs? Surely a succesful scientist needs to enter any investigative endevour with an open mind, that's scuppered right from the start because whatever they're working on, they believe was put there by a deity...for a distinct purpose.

They believe it was engineered by design! They're not a scientist they're a mechanic.

How can you be part of an organisation that essentially proves the non-existance of any higher authority and still be religious?

My experience the further west you go the less they subscribe to all that.

Ignoring middle America 🙂 I think it's just the west coast that's relatively progressive

OP, have you formed your views on this based on what you have seen famous people say in the media?

If you have spent much time around the states, and I haven't spent that much really, but in the short time I did spend there I didn't meet one person who was overtly religious at all.

I have Scottish friends who lived out in Colorado for a few years - at both of their jobs (one political, the other techie) it was normal practise for the workforce to gather together for morning prayer every day before work. 😯

They were both asked to lead prayer sessions and had to face very awkward questions when they declined.

My experience the further west you go the less they subscribe to all that.

Not been to Missouri, Kansas or Utah on your travels then? Or were you displaying a level of geographical awareness that is oft levelled at the Americans?

In some ways I suspect that large swathes of Americans who are often poorly educated and raised on a diet of gameshow/evangelism/NRA/PepsiCokeMacdonaldsKFCTV are in some ways as occluded from what is going on in the rest of the world as those poor folk in North Korea.
Didn't a % of Americans think that Barrack Obama was part of Al Qaeida at one point?

I lived in Missouri for a while. Nearest town had a population of around 2,500 and 24+ churches!

I didn't meet one person who was overtly religious at all.

By that do you mean evangelistic? Cos loads of people don't seem religious at all until you have dinner at their house and they say grace. Or they'll tell you a funny story involving their pastor.

Surely a succesful scientist needs to enter any investigative endevour with an open mind, that's scuppered right from the start because whatever they're working on, they believe was put there by a deity...for a distinct purpose

Not at all. We've absolutely no idea why the universe is here. We can never know. Why would their even be a why? No-one can tell you that the big bang wasn't started by a creator. A divine being or even some scientist in a lab in another dimension.

As for your example, the 'why' of gravity - I don't see a problem here either. Yes we know things fall, people are investigating the possible origins of the force, but what caused those origins? You can only work so far back, in science.

Seems entirely compatible to me. These scientists aren't going to be saying 'god did it' when asked why gravity is there. But everyone knows there's no answer to why the big bang happened.

I suspect that some educated Amercians might question why our head of state is also head of the church of England and why unelected clergy sit in the Upper house 🙂
And why so few attend church!

I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, so it's pretty liberal, but even then there is a lot more religion than the UK, but none in school, which I like.

It's odd that a country with specific clauses separating religion from that state ends up with more religious influence than the UK which has a state religion, bishops in the House of Lords and mandatory Christianity in most schools.

I don't discuss religion, politics or healthcare with the natives.

I don't think I know anyone personally who goes to church at all

I have one neighbour, an elderly lady who attends and that's it. I have to confess I'm always quite surprised if I cycle past one and see people outside it! I just assumed no one went any more (bar old ladies)...

That's just the science though, think about the state of mind of someone who believes that god exists in whatever form, who is investigating something scientific like say.... gravity. That person is delving into the fine detail of god's grand plan. How far do you think they'll take that? How much do you think they'll be influenced by their beliefs? Surely a succesful scientist needs to enter any investigative endevour with an open mind, that's scuppered right from the start because whatever they're working on, they believe was put there by a deity...for a distinct purpose.

That's a good reply. Lets not fall out over this. But Gravity was great example as of course Newton really did believe that he was uncovering gods clock work. But Newton didn't believe in mysticism, he didn't believe that good could break his own rules.

Newton described gravity he made no effort to explain it.

I suppose I'm a bit hung up on it as I spend most of my life teaching science to religious people. So I have had to rationalise the god and science together thing despite being pretty unconvinced by the God argument. I don't see evolution as contradicting God. If I was a supreme being would bother designing a 1,000,000 beetles. No way I'd just let my universe run with a really cool system where you end up with things taking care of themselves and you end up with a 1,000,000 different beetles all perfectly suited for their own habitat.

I suppose you can't be a scientist who believes that your prayer will mean that it will rain so much in the Sahara that you can grow crops. On the other hand praying for a good summer this year would seem to leave god room within the laws of physics to oblige. I don't have much contact with prayer but in general I understand that prayer asks for one of the possible outcomes, not an impossible outcome or a miracle. At least in the milder branches of religion I grew up with

Molgrips

I agree with loads of that

it's common for people in the UK to say things like "Oh my god, it's enormous"

I think I'm more likely to hear "keep that thing away from me."

My experience the further west you go the less they subscribe to all that.
Ignoring middle America I think it's just the west coast that's relatively progressive

OP, have you formed your views on this based on what you have seen famous people say in the media?

Mogrim don't confuse history with historical record ( what's written down and by whom) for instance the historical record shows that Vikings went from from church to church, pillaging and raping, that's not to say Vikings didn't solely go to those places, it's just that the folk writing down what was happening were religious orders and they were mostly concerned with what happened to churches.

What's left if our history is v religious,I agree that's not to say however that the evidence says that people in this country necessarily were..

Weird view of history you have there, which seems to go against everything I've read - all evidence suggests that people from >200 years ago were [b]very[/b] religious, indeed by 21stC standards they would be considered fundamentalist.

And it must be said the year I spent in Idaho completely backs up the image of a massively religious population, in this case LDS.

In ferreted to hear where you read that, mogrim. A lot of people 200 years ago acted religious, cos it was the done thing. Also remember the people making and recording history were a very small subset of people.

I used to do medieval reenactment, one of the things i found when i researched the period was that people really were very devout. You can put that down to a lack of secular knowledge, a dominant church etc but the reality was that the population lived in close harmony with the church.

I'm quite interested in the science versus religion thing to be honest.

We have one friend who used to work in genetic research who then became a vicar. When we've talked I suggested that the two are mutually incompatible so what was it that in effect, changed his mind. He was earning big money as a scientist and then became a pretty poor vicar. It must have been something fairly major to shift his mind set.

His answers unfortunately carried little weight with me and we discussed it at length but ultimately he believed that evolution is something god put in place to help us survive. He still believed that humans were the superior species and that there was a plan for us all.

I'm not precious in any way about it. People can believe what they want but I like considering the conflicting aspects of science and religion.

I've been led to believe that all US citizens are holy.. 😕

The main thing to consider with things like faith and church attendance here or in the US is the difference between what people say and what they mean.

Church attendance has declined quite steeply in the UK, although it used to be the social norm here. It took a long time for people who don't attend church to stop describing themselves as 'Christian' in a census though.

In the us its very much the social norm to attend church, its part of the fabric of the community and its something that is broadly expect of people. A lot of people who attend church do so out of social duty politeness rather than because of deeply held faith. And going to church can be an entertaining and thoughtful and socially enjoyable experience regardless of beliefs.

But because its socially polite to attend church, out of politeness many people fake it such as.........

54% of Americans would vote for an atheist for president, and that represents massive progress!

Americans have already voted for an atheist president, he just politely fakes it. A scandal arose during Obama's presidential campaign as it turned out the pastor, Jeremiah White, at the church he attended gave angry, seeming anti-american sermons. This gave Obama's opposition the perfect "When did you stop beating your wife?" question. Faced with questions about questions about his relationship with White and his sermon they were pressing him to admit that he does what lots of americans do: To say they attend a church with a very large congregation, so that nobody notices if you're not actually there.

When a lot of people in the US attend church, or [i]say[/i] they attend church its because they don't want to offend the person who's asking, or get into a long conversation about why they don't go to church.