The forum supporting a loss making magazine seems like an odd business plan.

I’m not sure that is entirely the case.

I’m not sure that is entirely the case.

I’d politely disagree…

Whilst the ‘site’ may cost more than the overall income from the forum, the ‘forum’ aspect of the forum isn’t particularly expensive at all to host, own, run. There’s tonnes and tonnes of providers, options, hosts, data, etc…. None of which would cost anything like the amount of money STW bring in from ‘digital’ subscriptions.
Once you reach a certain ‘size’ in forums, you then move into ‘unlimited’ in terms of data, cpu etc…. Where the cost doesn’t go up over and above one of the lower subscriptions. This place will increase that limit potentially due to magazine downloads, reads, articles…. but actual ‘forum’ this place isn’t particularly higher in terms of users/posts/etc than somewhere like mtbr.com

I agree though there’s a much bigger picture here… but forums are not particularly expensive to own/run.

I think both magazines in hard copy and forums may well be dying anyway i did start paying in response to a appeal at the begining of covid but still have not looked at the magazine.

Unfortunately magazine and print in general have been falling in sales dramatically for a long time. Something stw is clearly aware of and the magazine has had several redesigns over the years.

I run a shop that sells magazines – I looked through my epos only sold one copy of STW other than to my self, so I delisted it and subscribed instead. I’ve various other cycling mags which again rarely sell. Best sellers for me in print (other than news papers, which are also falling in sales) is children’s magazine’s. But the trend there is always a compromise between the parent buying something for the child to read Vs the child wanting the free gift on the front.

When I worked for a supermarket they desperately wanted to remove a vast number of magazines from the shelves, but keep newspapers, something the print distributors wouldn’t let them do.

bentandbroken
I came here after the Boards Windsurfing forum and magazine started creaking and eventually ran out of puff in 2013.

Snap!  Now that was an excellent magazine, the kit reviews and discussions of industry trends were of a level I’ve never seen elsewhere.  The forum was remarkably similar in terms of people / informed chat / views / etc and lead to a number of good real world friendships + a great monthly pub night in London iirc.

Stop trying to use the forum to prop up a failing magazine,..a free user generated forum will rise when STW mag eventually dies, free from the profiteering and monetization.

“1.5 million hits a month” all coming for the free user generated content on the forum,..not the magazine.

The forum supporting a loss making magazine seems like an odd business plan.

This is absolutely not the case as I thought I’d made clear but obviously didn’t. The forum may be nominally cheap to run but it is part of a system that includes editorial content and a rather important database. If the printed magazine were hived off into a separate business it would still be viable. The magazine does not make a loss. It is profitable. The problem is very much that the margin of profit is being squeezed and will be squeezed harder in the coming 12 months. That’s very much not the same as loss making.

Singletrack is a viable business and has been for 21 years. The reason I acted and published the appeal is to attempt to avoid a downscaling of the business due to margin squeeze.

Now some may argue that it’s just business and if I need to down size the staffing then that’s just the way it goes. So perhaps I’m being selfish in not wanting to do that. I like the team we have. I like the fact that Singletrack provides them with a steady income and I like that we have a happy team who love what they do. I really want to not have to come in to work in 6 months and announce cutbacks. So in order to avoid that I’ve asked you guys for support.

It’s fine to think I should run things differently, but this is my plan.

Now some may argue that it’s just business and if I need to down size the staffing then that’s just the way it goes. So perhaps I’m being selfish in not wanting to do that. I like the team we have. I like the fact that Singletrack provides them with a steady income and I like that we have a happy team who love what they do. I really want to not have to come in to work in 6 months and announce cutbacks. So in order to avoid that I’ve asked you guys for support.

I don’t think there’s many on here who think that fella… I think you’re doing an excellent thing here with this place and whilst i may not see any point in the magazine, that doesn’t mean I/We don’t respect what this place is, both to you and to your employees.

The other disconnect is the folk who think this is some sort of democracy. Its not its a private playground. We may not always agree with decisions but thats not how it works. What Mark says is what happens

As you are reading this thread Mark i am greatful you let my rejoining stand. Thank you for that

I often think about subscribing, but everything I read on the STW site outside the forum does not appeal to me at all. As Weeksy described so well, it cost very little to run a forum, and subbing to me is about supporting the mag, not the forum.
100% agree that the forum has the ability to be excellent, it is possibly the best hive mind I have come across for the subjects I am interested in, but I don’t think it needs the mag to survive. Lots of active users on here do not sub, which means they are not interested in the other content either.
To answer the OP, would I miss the forum? Yes.
Do we need to subscribe for the forum to survive? I doubt it.
A better question might be, would you miss the mag and STW website?

I’m another Boards ex forumite too.
The magazine was also very good and of a similar format with group tests , holiday locations, new kit reveiws etc to the current STW . Again , abit aloof and above most peoples pay grade but reading about Maui , Mauritius, Australia etc we could all dream, same as the technique guide. This is how you do a double forward loop. Yeah , right . I like my head connected to neck and my board in one peice thanks .

A better question might be, would you miss the mag and STW website?

I’d happily pay for just the forum and personally wouldn’t miss the rest… Which is clearly very harsh on the employees and STW as a whole, but if that’s the specific question, that’s my answer.

Bit lost now. The magazine is profitable, and the forum cheap to run?

I used to get the mag, since the Ally Pally show all those decades ago. Stopped about a year ago – which was on a subscription. Realised that I was putting it into the bin, unread.

I still ride, and have just bought a Status 140, so it is not a lack of interest in cycling. My rides are no longer aspirational though, and I lost the will to put a bike into a car and drive off years ago – J8 M25 does that to a person. Even I realise that articles about blokes about to retire, who bimble about in the woods, is not interesting in print.

Would I miss the forum? Probably for a week. It is a better source of info than a lot of places, but ultimately it is just a diversion.

There isn’t a sub option just to support the forum (I have asked a couple of times over the years), so I decided rather than not support I’d take the Digital sub as it costs about £20 a year and it was me doing something to support this. I’m pretty sure if STW was to close then the forum would be killed as well, so I reckon this is ok as a support model for me.

Can I just mention that the ‘excess baggage’ article in the latest mag is awesome.  Proper inspirational and uplifting stuff.  There’s no way one of the more mainstream mtb mags would ever dream of publishing an article of that quality, honesty and subject matter.  It made me reappraise some crap in my personal life which pales into insignificance in comparison.  There is some quality writing in the magazine, it’s a shame those who no longer read it, don’t give it another chance from time to time.

Shame not to give the mag a glance? Fair point, but where is it sold now? Not WHSmiths, or the supermarkets. Subscriptions only? Not sure my head is configured to read mags online.

A bit over a year ago I was in a bad way.
One of the first things that happened was Mark and co made sure I had a free digital sub. With that kind of support from them how could I not miss STW if it went?
Sadly I think this is the start of the end for much publishing.
My own three neswspapers will suffer this autumn like never before.
There are only 4 of us and we’re all grownups who’ve been through this before but it is never pleasant.
I don’t know what industries you work in but on the magazines I worked on and edited you were part of a team and the product wasnt just product it was something you deeply cared about every single issue.
When I left it was like leaving a family and all my friends. In many ways it was harder to go through than my divorce.
So when we talk about the end of Singletrack remember its not a website and a mag that is going, it is the dreams and sweat of 11 human beings that is being cast away by forces beyond their control.
I’m as guilty of forgetting this as anyone, but every now and then I think of the folk on the team and feel a lot of envy as I remember what it was like being at the heart of something I believed in and enjoyed turning up at the desk every day for 20 years to do.

.a free user generated forum will rise when STW mag eventually dies

I’m not convinced that would be the case. I’ve yet to come across a forum that is anywhere near as good as STW. Obviously “good” could be considered a lame term, but I consider it an apt one.

I’ve upgraded. Keep up the good work STW. Keep up the good work Fourmites, both free and full ones.

Shame not to give the mag a glance? Fair point, but where is it sold now? Not WHSmiths, or the supermarkets. Subscriptions only? Not sure my head is configured to read mags online.

I have seen it for sale in the odd mtb focussed bike shop. You can also buy individual paper copies from STW without subscribing.  I did that before I subscribed to suss it out.  I really like the tactile experience of a quality magazine.  The smell, the feel, the occasion of brewing a good coffee and sneaking off somewhere quiet to enjoy it in peace.  I sometimes read older copies digitally from before I subscribed, but it’s not the same. I also pass on my copies to riding mates who don’t use the forum who are always appreciative.

I’m not convinced that would be the case. I’ve yet to come across a forum that is anywhere near as good as STW.

IT’s not the forum that’s good, it’s the userbase and the posts that are…. If everyone migrated to a new forum then surely it’d be exactly the same ?

@eddiebaby great post 👍

@weeksy

What Weeksy says.

Open Source the forum somehow ;-). We are the product, if we dont like like it Jog On.

I’m feeling like Joging On soon.

Still happy to sling something toward the forums/website costs though 🙂 PayPAl donation by any chance ???? Can it be that hard.

Dont want a mag either printed or digital…. both litter. Even this post is litter 🙁

If everyone migrated to a new forum

I fully agree that (at least in very large part) its the forum users that make it work so well. But I’m not convinced generating the user base is as easy as you seem to be suggesting. If that was the case there would be loads of great forums all over the place. In my experience, this is just not the case. Other places that should be equally as good, but are far from it…
CTC
Audax.uk
yacf
All would have a potentially great user base, but struggle to generate forum content that is quite as good as STW.

No offence to those forums, but they are just not close to STW in what they offer.

IT’s not the forum that’s good, it’s the userbase and the posts that are

without getting too existential, what else is the forum but the members & the content?! 😃 I have no doubt someone would start up an offshoot if this one disappeared, but not everyone would join of course, and without anything driving new members you’d get a few years out of it probably but it would eventually just Peter out

Still happy to sling something toward the forums/website costs though 🙂 PayPAl donation by any chance ???? Can it be that hard.

@redthunder just buy a digital sub, or chuck in a fiver/tenner here (no PP tho, just credit card or AP)

Donate

Donations can be made here, since it was asked about.

Donate

Also, something else that has been mentioned in these discussions about putting up the price of membership – If anyone would like to pay more then drop Zoe an email at subs@singletrackworld.com and she can add any extra you’d like to add to your annual membership payment.

I’m really trying to avoid putting up the prices as that’s a blanket approach that will be fine for many but not so fine for others. As I said in my article, we have a great chance of riding out the margin squeeze if we simply gain more new members on the current prices. That’s our strategy at them moment. If it doesn’t work then we’ll look at another.

Cheers for all the support and the discussion & ideas.

we have a great chance of riding out the margin squeeze if we simply gain more new members on the current prices

How and where though i guess is your question.

does STW have any advertising in the opposite direction ? E.g say Supporting Southern Enduro, Ard Rock, or even any of the more ‘niche’ events. Where would STW pick up new members apart from Google searches etc

Well, there’s over a million people pop by this website every month.

Our presence at any physical event, even where the organiser gives us free space, costs typically in excess of £1k in staff time, expenses etc. We’d ned to return with 50 new members from every event just to break even. In my 21 years of doing this, that has rarely ever happened without offering some major, expensive incentive like a half price offer or free gift. Sadly, events are just not worth it for us in those terms anymore.

Shame not to give the mag a glance? Fair point, but where is it sold now? Not WHSmiths, or the supermarkets.

If you go to customer services I’m sure they’d order it in for you. If you get it from  them regularly, they’ll eventually get another copy to put on the shelf.

I sell a single copy of many mags to customers who regularly order them – after a couple of months I automatically get a second copy to put on the shelf.

@zilog (and a few others) That’s exactly what happened to the Boards forum. On its own it lacked technical support and started to crumble. Some of the users setup (or already ran) alternative forums, but they were never as active and generally popped after a short time. All very sad.

PS Waves @chaos I guess we may have met at the Forum Drinkies or maybe at the Screening at Leicester Square…

December 24 2008…. “you weren’t there man!”

“Setting up a forum is easy!”
“Running a forum doesn’t cost much!”
“Eleven staff is far too many, you only need three!”
“No-one reads the magazine!”

Etc, etc.

Well… what’s stopping you, then? Go spin up a rival forum. From all the claims on here and comments across various other threads since the 1940s, it’ll be a huge success.

Won’t it?

Why?

Well… what’s stopping you, then? Go spin up a rival forum. From all the claims on here and comments across various other threads since the 1940s, it’ll be a huge success.

Won’t it?

Why?

That’s an easy one…. Userbase…

That’s the simple answer… creating, owning, maintaining the forum is the easy bit… honestly it really is… Getting the people to come is the hard bit… Partly because it’s hard to ‘advertise’ a forum, plus the general public are more into social media these days over forums.

@mark

PayPal donate button please.

That’s an easy one…. Userbase…

That’s the simple answer… creating, owning, maintaining the forum is the easy bit… honestly it really is… Getting the people to come is the hard bit… Partly because it’s hard to ‘advertise’ a forum, plus the general public are more into social media these days over forums.

Correctamundo.

Now again – why?

I knew the answer to the question when I posed it, and it’s precisely why I asked – so that hopefully a few people might stop and think. Because for everyone blarting on (and sometimes on and on) about how easy it is, the truth of the matter is that it’s not, really, is it.

What’s minimum wage these days, £20k? £25k? Out of the gate, Gofar’s salary bill is a quarter of a million, before anyone’s done anything. Is that not quite impressive for a 20+ year old enterprise which to hear some folk talk is nothing more than a broken forum that someone’s nephew could do better in an afternoon?

Now again – why?

I knew the answer to the question when I posed it, and it’s precisely why I asked – so that hopefully a few people might stop and think. Because for everyone blarting on (and sometimes on and on) about how easy it is, the truth of the matter is that it’s not, really, is it.

What’s minimum wage these days, £20k? £25k? Out of the gate, Gofar’s salary bill is a quarter of a million, before anyone’s done anything. Is that not quite impressive for a 20+ year old enterprise which to hear some folk talk is nothing more than a broken forum that someone’s nephew could do better in an afternoon?

The thing you’re doing is mixing up the actual logistics from the website/brand here.

The ‘forum’ as an entity, as a physical presence with the ability to make, maintain, and stucture postings is not a difficult thing to do. It does take a certain level of knowledge, it takes a certain amount of time to upkeep, but it’s something that isn’t the hardest thing on the planet to do.

The hardest part is actually making people aware of it’s existence.

I don’t frequent the site as much as I did, and I recently cancelled my subscription (which I’d already downgraded to digital because I wasn’t reading the mags.

I’d also missed Marks message (mainly because I come straight to the forum and ignore the front page) but I’d be gutted if it went.

I’ve just done a new digital sub, I need some inspiration to get my arse on my bike more anyway, and I’ve never found a magazine on any subject that seems quite so well fitted to my personal view.

Vive le Singletrack ✌🏻

Bonus – the crappy ads have gone 🙌

The thing you’re doing is mixing up the actual logistics from the website/brand here.

Yup. And once more with feeling:

Why?

Running a forum in isolation is easy. I’ve built several over the years, all with more visible functionality than STW’s. It’s not hard, it’s an afternoon’s work.

STW has 1.4 million hits a month. At my height I probably had about six.

Why?

I’m sorry if I sound tetchy. But I am, quite frankly, bored of the complaining. Sure, the site can be frustrating and it could be more feature rich, I get that. They could probably use another developer. But where’s that wage coming from? A fairly prolific Free Member poster said yesterday that they’d been here for 21 years, wanted to support the site and didn’t know what to do. Lolwut?

I understand. I do. This place is kinda special to a lot of people. Me included, there’s a reason I was a volunteer for a decade. What I don’t understand is that a subscription is less than the price of a pint or a chainstore coffee per month and yet there are still people who’ve posted daily for years that are going “well, I wish there was a forum-only option…” What do you suppose that might look like that’s different from a digital sub? Reading the magazine isn’t mandatory if you aren’t interested, there’s not going to be a quiz.

(Spoiler: there might be a quiz.)

I pay my subs, but never read the mag.

I’d miss the forum for sure, you bunch of lefty sods 😉

Our presence at any physical event, even where the organiser gives us free space, costs typically in excess of £1k in staff time, expenses etc. We’d ned to return with 50 new members from every event just to break even. In my 21 years of doing this, that has rarely ever happened without offering some major, expensive incentive like a half price offer or free gift. Sadly, events are just not worth it for us in those terms anymore.

@Mark, to save costs, why not enlist the help of a handful of trusted forum members to erect and man a stall for you at an event rather than use paid staff? The staff probably have better things to do with their weekends anyhow! There might be a bit of training involved if you wanted them to sign up subscribers or sell merch but I’d be surprised if you couldn’t find people on here willing to give up the odd day or weekend if it would help you ride the storm?

Edit to say, I can imagine at something like the Malvern Classic or Ardrock you’d pull in a load of new punters who’d maybe never heard of you before?

Our public liability cover wouldn’t cover the use of volunteers with no salaried supervisor – and the risk assessment requirements of the organisers of the events big enough to make a difference wouldn’t allow us to do that.