• This topic has 272 replies, 131 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by Duggan.
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  • Would you miss STW if we lost it?
  • a11y
    Full Member

    The quality of posting on here, even on the political threads, is far above most forums.

    It’s also a really good news aggregator, and saves me having to actually go on Twitter.

    Nicely put – sums it up for me too. STW is my go-to if I’m looking for an overview of current news stories without trawling multiple news sites. Valuable to have differing points of views that certainly make me reconsider my own.

    Re the forum, I think I remember spending hours on the original forum in the computer lab at uni when I was supposed to be writing my dissertation. That must’ve been 2001, right? If so, I’ve ‘known’ STW for nearly half my life, and equally as long as Mrs a11y. I’d miss both if I lost either.

    redthunder
    Free Member

    So…

    “Would you miss STW if we lost it?”

    I would only miss this forum/website.

    Its useful by gaining information and also adding.

    Happly donate for hosting costs. If I had the skills I would suggest moving it on to a real forum host.

    Hand over the forum keys so to speak, the forum at the moment is the most valuble thing to STW.

    Full Member / Free Member tags are devisive IMO. All users are valuable you ask us to join by signing up in the first place.

    Perhaps a paywall could be consider….take a look at your members only area. All of STW will look like that in time. 🙁

    It seems people/users like me are not wanted. So time to log off :-(.

    Goodluck STW.

    Might even go and ride my bike 😉

    PS Perhaps STW could do a Dirt Shed Show type affair. #gmtb #gcn
    or copy the https://www.emtbforums.com/ forum.

    nickc
    Full Member

    For all I know you might be dressed in STW branded clothes, drinking STW coffee from a branded mug.

    I’ve got a STW branded sweatshirt (it’s got paint on it), don’t drink deadline all that often as it’s v strong, but my wife likes it. The branding eventually washed off my STW mug. 😒

    For everything this site gives me, giving a wee bit back occasionally seems like the least I could do.

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    doomanic
    Full Member

    I’d miss it but I’m sure I’d get over it. As someone at the lower end of the earning scale I’m starting to feel the pinch (my mortgage has nearly doubled this year) and I had let my digital sub lapse. I only re-subbed because the forum became unusable on Safari on iPhone due to horrendously intrusive ads that prevented me from even closing them. As a marketing tactic it worked perfectly.

    It does surprise me that with so many developers the forum is so unstable when a single person can build a reliable forum using easily available templates.

    chrismac
    Full Member

    As others have said I would miss the forum more than the actual magazine. Im not that keen on the current change in direction the magazine is going. From my perspective it seems to be less and less about mountain biking and more about gravel riding and cookery which arent my thing in a mountain bike magazine.

    convert
    Full Member

    But surely that’s the case with any society/demographic and you have to bend, change and mould yourself and your wares as time moves on… Or you flounder and fold instead.

    Many many companies have grasped that paper magazines are not the way forward, not the future and are a little bit ‘old’ maybe it’s time for STW to get this too and move away from paper into purely digital.

    That sounds like advocacy for a race to the bottom mindset. I guess it depends on your priorities – if making money is your main driver Mark should have sent Chipps on dancing lessons years ago and made him some kind of middle-aged twerking phenomenon! But fortunately for the world they don’t seem to want to take that path. And I’d say they have moved with the times – defend and promote proper (I’m going to come over as a snob here – shoot me) educated content by moneyising middle-aged men bickering on the internet to subsidise it. Sure, it’s a niche living; but one I hope they can continue to make viable without changing it too much.

    avdave2
    Full Member

    I don’t want to live in that world. I want to live in a world where people appreciate the value of a couple of quid a month to support something that’s really worth supporting, which can be totally life affirming

    If this goes, you’ll miss it

    Treasure the true value in things and support the people who’ve enabled this. We owe them a hell of a lot

    They made a lot of things possible

    Stop fannying around and get a bloody subscription!

    This shit is actually important!

    You’ll miss it when it’s gone and all that’s left is the cesspit of Twitter

    avdave2, your first recruit Sargent Major Binners reporting for duty

    andybrad
    Full Member

    Would I miss STW?

    Yes, yes I would. Not only do I spend an inordinate amount of time on here but this forum has helped me so much. I have asked questions from solar to depression. From fixing brakes to understanding others opinions. Its been a real eye opener. Ive had the opportunity to see peoples opinions put across that are obviously far far cleverer than myself and the best thing is ive had these explained to me. Its really been an overall positive experience over many years. I would really miss it and the people.

    But just putting my 2penneth out there
    The thing is I really dislike these sort of posts that mark has put up. I don’t want to loose STW as much as the next person. However I do feel that tagged onto every other post is almost a begging letter. Its not a “look how great we are” but more of a “your going to loose this if you don’t pay” maybe in overly sensitive to these sorts of things?

    I do feel like theres a significant number of people that frequent here that I would class as “high flyers” or just generally successful people that operate in a different realm to myself. These people are able to donate. But I feel like these sort of posts from STW are replying on people like these to pull them away from the brink of closure. This makes me worried about the future as im now basically thinking you’ve had a golden opportunity and you’ve not managed it / adapted / whatever to keep it going. We shouldn’t need begging letters, should we?

    I really don’t want to loose it but I do feel like theres something fundamentally wrong if were having to us the stick rather than the carrot to keep going?

    xcgb
    Free Member

    Funnily enough i have just subscribed so yes I guess i would!

    weeksy
    Full Member

    But just putting my 2penneth out there
    The thing is I really dislike these sort of posts that mark has put up. I don’t want to loose STW as much as the next person. However I do feel that tagged onto every other post is almost a begging letter. Its not a “look how great we are” but more of a “your going to loose this if you don’t pay” maybe in overly sensitive to these sorts of things?

    IT’s tough for MArk/STW though as i know full well.

    As some of you may have seen, i own and run https://revtothelimit.co.uk/index.php

    It’s motorbike related and free from Ads… but it 100% relies upon donations from members to keep it running. Well, either that or my own funding of it. Sure it’s not on the size of this place, but it takes costs, upkeep, hosting, support, updates etc… Not only time but actual expense too. I have put up several posts in the past 2-3 years saying “get your wallets out” and people do… but not all… which seems a little unfair to me. I’ve got about 50% of people who pay a yearly subscription of the userbase.. but 50% pay…. nothing.

    andybrad
    Full Member

    t’s motorbike related and free from Ads… but it 100% relies upon donations from members to keep it running. Well, either that or my own funding of it. Sure it’s not on the size of this place, but it takes costs, upkeep, hosting, support, updates etc… Not only time but actual expense too. I have put up several posts in the past 2-3 years saying “get your wallets out” and people do… but not all… which seems a little unfair to me. I’ve got about 50% of people who pay a yearly subscription of the userbase.. but 50% pay…. nothing.

    So it needs something else to support it?
    youve opened it up to be free so you get visitors. You need the free members for content (your not creating something i presume?) so wheres the money coming from?

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I’d quite like a £12/year tier of “ad free forum sponger”

    Isn’t that the digital sub?

    weeksy
    Full Member

    So it needs something else to support it?
    youve opened it up to be free so you get visitors. You need the free members for content (your not creating something i presume?) so wheres the money coming from?

    That’s kinda the rub with forums… you need it ‘open’ and free to get members… but someone somewhere has to foot the costs… i’m very fortunate that my members see this and do so.

    funkmasterp
    Full Member

    I do feel like theres a significant number of people that frequent here that I would class as “high flyers” or just generally successful people that operate in a different realm to myself

    I see this too, but I’m the sole earner in a household with two young kids. Starting to see the seams split with all the price rises going on an just renewed the mortgage. That’s seen another significant dent in the wallet.

    Given all that, I still subscribe here because (and this is sad) I’d be lost without this place. It’s a couple of quid a month, that’s it. I would’ve had to pay a small fortune for some of the advice I’ve received for free on here over the years.

    fasthaggis
    Full Member

    >>>Reports Weeksy’s biker clickbait<<< 😜🙃🤣

    duncancallum
    Full Member

    @molgrips not quite, you get the magazine I think they just want forum only tarriff.

    Which possible isn’t a bad idea unless it causes a downward migration of people just dropping the magazine element and your worse off.

    I’d love to have the answer as I’m sure everyone else would. But it’s not a clear or precise thing

    weeksy
    Full Member

    I would’ve had to pay a small fortune for some of the advice I’ve received for free on here over the years.

    I’d imagine just the technical answers/fixes would save many many thousands of pounds for people over the last 12 months… the “how do i fix XYZ” would have otherwise meant a long trip to LBS and associated costs.

    singletrackmind
    Full Member

    Brimg back the old classified ads.
    Then you will get more clicks
    More clicks = more potential advertising
    More clicks = ability to charge a bit more for that advertising
    As a forum its great, but the randomness of the classifieds was a bonus. Some great bikes that you knew had hardly been used, plus harder for scammers as you could tell new posters.

    johnx2
    Free Member

    …another free member here, obv. I’d assumed my contributing to discussions, posting the occasional pic etc, is generating free content that attracts users some of whom can be monetised one way or another (ads, merch, membership). All so marginal as to be undetectable obv, and my dull political thread contributions have probably driven more folks away, but hey. I’d assumed that was the model for these types of forums?

    I ride bikes a lot and typical of the demographic I guess. I’ve bought the paper mag a couple of times over the years but don’t have that much interest in digital content. Should I say sorry? (Actually I’ve just noticed the side bar now with the post that’s sparked this thread. This forum I would miss, a bit. But they do come and go. The msw one was my fave fwiw, from which current username derives. Disappointed to have arrived on here after the departure of matteeboy. Actually wouldn’t he bung in a few quid?)

    Cougar
    Full Member

    It is far too many. It should be possible to run with 3 people.

    You should talk to Mark. Your business acumen would save the site a fortune.

    This thread has shown the magazine is nearly dead.

    and

    The most interesting thing I’ve taken from this and the other forum thread about the current state of the magazine is that there seems to be a majority of people who simply aren’t interested in the magazine.

    As reeksy suggests, there has to be confirmation bias at play here. “EVERYONE USES THE FORUM!” says, uh, everyone who uses the forum, on the forum. If there are subscribers who relish the magazine but never post on the forum, how would we know?

    It does surprise me that with so many developers the forum is so unstable when a single person can build a reliable forum using easily available templates.

    Off you go, then. Check back in here when you’ve got 1.5 million hits a month and we’ll compare notes.

    This argument keeps cropping up – indeed, I’ve said it myself before I knew better – and it’s simply born of ignorance. Go visit them, go talk to them.

    ayjaydoubleyou
    Full Member

    “EVERYONE USES THE FORUM!” says, uh, everyone who uses the forum, on the forum. If there are subscribers who relish the magazine but never post on the forum, how would we know?

    As always, I’ll remind people of a few years ago, there were two forum posts on the first page of the forum. One was “what do you carry on a ride” and one was “do you carry a first aid kit”.

    In the first aid kit thread, about 90% of people carried a first aid kit at all times.
    In the general carry thread, only about 10% of people mentioned first aid, and most, like me, would only consider it on a long remote, adventure type day ride.

    Dolcered
    Full Member

    I lurk here a lot, so fair play, time to contribute.

    chrismac
    Full Member

    Im sorry if this sounds harsh but the reality is that if there arent enough people who are happy to pay the price the magazine needs to be a viable business and pay staff then it has to either stop or change its content / business model to one that is viable.

    As I have said earlier in the thread personally the current direction of the mag is driving me away rather than towards. If Im in the minority, then so be it, and the magazine will be fine. If Im not then the magazine needs to change or decide if it can charge a higher price to those who enjoy its current direction.

    I have enjoyed the magazine over the years so would like it to stay relevant to me and I will happily pay for it.

    Mark
    Full Member

    A natural inevitable consequence of posting the sort of appeal I did yesterday is the responses about how all we need to do to make everything be rosy is do x.

    “You know what you wanna do right? You wanna put a banging donk on it.” As heard often on the weekend radio 🙂

    I’ll not respond to everything but one person was quite correct when they said that all we need to run a forum is 3 people and why with 3 developers we can’t have a super stable forum – It’s easy right?

    But we aren’t just a forum. We are media brand that publishes editorial content and sells advertising around it. The forum is part of that business and all the parts of the business come together to create a brand that is trusted and attracts advertising revenue and paid memberships from readers.

    I could similarly siphon off the magazine (Print & digital) into a separate company with all the magazine features and daily news items published. I’d need at least 4 members of staff to pull that off alongside a long list of freelance contributors to keep the content flowing. The merchandise side of the business could be run by maybe two people. If we did split the company up like that each would probably need it’s own dev too.

    But we run them all in one company and as a result they all add up to more than the sum of their parts. In fact I reckon splitting things up like that would likely lead to the end of all three. The fact we manage the whole thing in a single business is what makes it all work. And that’s why we averaged 1.4 million people a month last year.

    The magazine has more members now than it did 3 years ago. The interest in the magazine isn’t the problem – people have been telling us that it’s in decline for 21 years and yet….

    The issue is it costs more to produce and run everything at a time when the spending public are being squeezed dry by the state of the economy and the fuel crisis.

    Plus. I get to employ 10 people. I really like doing that. For me it’s one of the main driving forces behind why I still do this.

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    I contribute by providing revenue through all the ads I have on my screen surely?

    I think that only works if you click on the link and have a scout about whichever site it take you to. Just having it there without interaction isn’t going to do anything.

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    STW has been part of my life for 21 years.

    The forum is unequivocally the best of its type despite being an anodyne, washed out version of its full blooded glory years.

    I would miss it, but its an accompaniment to the real thing and I’d adjust fairly quickly to being without.

    Mag wise, I don’t really get ANY mags. I read quickly and voraciously, and for me, magazines of all kinds don’t offer much vs the cost. I used to get the ones with the maps in pre-smartphone era, but that was for the routes.

    w00dster
    Full Member

    My twopence worth…
    The website is fairly clunky. I’ve been over in the shop earlier today trying to help by purchasing a few bits and pieces. The navigating wasn’t particularly quick or easy and on a similar note the stock wasn’t particularly high. Looking forward to the updates to see what improvements this brings.
    Generally though I’m more of a forum user than the magazine, I tend to only download the magazine when I’m going on holiday. I have just subscribed for the paper copy though.
    Is the 1.4 million people per month individual users? That sounds like a heck of a lot of traffic for a fairly niche website. I know it’s global, but using my simple maths and reference only, but isn’t that one in every 60 people in the UK had visited this site per month? Impressive if that’s the case.

    Hoping this doesn’t sound negative, as I’d really miss singletrack if it did go.

    Scienceofficer
    Free Member

    The thing is, STW is full of genuinely great advice from knowledgeable people about a plethora of topics completely unrelated to bikes.

    I’ve met a number of people who know of STW just because they were searching on google for answers and it was high on the search list and gave them meaningful answers.

    tpbiker
    Free Member

    When I was a paid up member I never once read the mag

    And Whilst I use the forum plenty, I doubt I’d really miss it either.

    So to the op’s original question, no probably not. I’d find something else to do when I’m bored working from home.

    Mark
    Full Member

    “Is the 1.4 million people per month individual users?”

    Yes

    leffeboy
    Full Member

    Plus. I get to employ 10 people. I really like doing that

    If ever we needed a Like button 🙂

    Edukator
    Free Member

    I used to employ nine people, when I shut the business the jobs they got after must have been better than working for me. 😉

    Good luck with it whichever path you choose.

    gnusmas
    Full Member

    I for one definitely would miss STW. I enjoy the articles, learning new things and finding out about different things too. I do have a read through the magazine as well when it turns up although tend to check the website more if I’m honest.

    As far as the forum goes, this community has been such a big part of my life and has had a major impact on me personally. Honestly don’t know where I’d be now if I didn’t have this as an outlet. Even if I don’t post for a while I’m usually lurking. Have spoken to a lot of people I wouldn’t ordinarily have had the opportunity to, met some and have become friends with a few too. It’s such a diverse community with many different backgrounds, abilities and strengths.

    I’m pleased and proud to be a small part of what STW have accomplished and hope it continues for a long time.

    neilarn2
    Full Member

    Yes I would miss the forum and the mag, the forum can have you crying with laughter  and sadness, with the wealth of knowledge of all the contributions it’s a valuable resource.

    Re the magazine it has changed but its still a enjoyable read.

    stevenmenmuir
    Free Member

    I stopped getting the magazine years ago. I used to love reading it back in the single speed days but once the prices of gear started to go up there just seemed less stuff I wanted to read. I find the forum a bit cliquey at times, some threads seem to have a handful of people focussing on bickering with each other without much to be gained by it. I asked a question last year, there was lots of back and forth and arguing but it wasn’t very helpful and eventually the thread was closed.
    It feels to me like there’s much less activity especially in the bike forum so I don’t check in as much.

    leffeboy
    Full Member

    Was looking at buying some more shirts and the problem isn’t that you don’t ship to Belgium, it’s that almost everything is out of stock :(.

    bearnecessities
    Full Member

    “Is the 1.4 million people per month individual users?”

    Yes

    I know it’s not true, but I love this inference that even the owner can’t use the quote function.

    Anyhow, stick me in the crowd for an optional pay-for-a-mag-subscription-without-the-mag camp – as medium term solution, and like a centipede, I reckon that’s got legs.

    roger_mellie
    Full Member

    Would you miss STW if we lost it?

    Yes. Forum and Magazine.

    Magazine: The ratio of articles I enjoy to articles I don’t enjoy has moved in the wrong direction slightly for me, but I suspect that’s a phase and will cycle back the other way in the future. The ‘excess baggage’ article in the current mag for example more than makes up for the knit your own yoghurt stuff. I do enjoy reading a physical magazine rather than digital. The photography is fantastic in print. +1 for a bigger font for the text though 🙂

    Forum: The bickering threads are tedious, but are outweighed by the helpfulness on any variety of topics. I was here before it even existed of course.

    monkeyboyjc
    Full Member

    Magazine: probably not tbh, the photos are great but I’ve not gelled with the articles (other than new kit reviews) for a number of years and feel more disconnected with the mag in recent times (no traveling etc). Backpacking and long distance rides just aren’t my thing, i have a paper subscription off and on for a number of years, but this year the decision was to save some cash and go digital as 99% of the content and interaction value I get is here. I’m sure that there is a market for the STW mag, but with my personal riding turning into a once a week local loop or bike park visit isnt it.

    Theres been some amazing articles over the past year or two, the Jamie Hibbard one was great and even inspired me to write a thread about how much I appreciated it.

    Forum/online: if this was to go it would be a bigger part of my life to loose than I’m willing to admit tbh.

    I have the sort of job where I can regularly check the threads on the forum and I find the interaction with fellow MTB enthusiasts rewarding. Prob because Im currently only riding once a week and mates who ride are moving further afield. I’ve no idea how often I check the forum a day but it would cirtainly be my most regularly visited site. Having said that, I’ve used a few MTB forums over the years, the mbuk one was great in the early 00’s then changed format and a few (50) of us created and contributed to a new form ukmb which kept the original banter feel. That eventually dissolved and here I am.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Never read the magazine. No interest in it at all.

    The forum yes I would miss it.

    I think there has always been a disconnect between what mark wants and what most visitors want from this site. The forum supporting a loss making magazine seems like an odd business plan.

    I think both magazines in hard copy and forums may well be dying anyway i did start paying in response to a appeal at the begining of covid but still have not looked at the magazine.

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