Will light ebikes replace current full fat models?

Been ebike curious for a while now. Will be for solo rides mostly and will be keeping the regular mtb for riding with mates who are all on standard mtbs.

As i’ve been looking at the sales ive noticed that full fat type bikes seem to be more discounted and lighter bikes such as the rise ST/LT are harder to find. Does this signal an overall trend towards the lighter bikes? Is this where we are ultimately heading? I keep thinking i could be buying into the power equivalent of 27.5 front and rear if i’m not careful.

No, but full fat bikes will get lighter and replace the half fat verity. The AMflow is a prime example

Dunno TBH, but there are fewer half-fat models available so maybe that’s why you’re not seeing them discounted so much.

And they actually have been discounted, but maybe are selling out now?

My two cents is there will always be a demand for the full-fat ones, because they just make it so easy.

 but full fat bikes will get lighter and replace the half fat verity. The AMflow is a prime example

Hmmmm more variables to mess with my aging brain.

There’ll be less bifurcation of the market in the future… people will want differing balances of max-torque, battery size, weight, power… just as they want differing balances of travel, geometry, weight, suspension feel in the non assisted market.

lighter bikes such as the rise ST/LT are harder to find

Orbea got ahead of the curve… detuning the Shimano motor and pairing it with different batteries to make a range of different bikes that feel more like normal bikes. Rise are always in demand. Orbea is an outlier if you’re looking for reductions. There have been (and are still to be found) many deals on the Specialized models with a weaker motor and smaller battery, for example.

It my humble opinion its all marketing bollocks anyhow.

All the motors roughly weigh the same, battery weight is determined by how far you want to go. The build of the bike determines what the bike is capable of doing.

Amflow have brought a very powerful motor to the market and currently its been sold in a trail bike. Thats ok for some, not for others. Will be interesting to see how far you can actually go at full power on the 600wh battery. I cant see it being any further than any other bike (relative)

The only thing that will change weight is someone comes up with new battery technology that makes them weigh less.

I’d suggest it purely down to over stocking still, and less bike shops taking up the SL bikes, as they don’t sell as well

As i’ve been looking at the sales ive noticed that full fat type bikes seem to be more discounted and lighter bikes such as the rise ST/LT are harder to find

Thats because they cant even get the bloody things into the country. I have been waiting since May for my Rise LT. There are very few that have actually come in to the UK. They appear to be a 6 month + lead time and only being manufactured once an order placed.

Orbea had massive over stock of 2023/24 bikes that have all had to be sold cheap.

There are some ‘bargains’ on Shuttle LTs if you call £7k a bargain. ie nearly half price

Not just now.

(Full levo and trek exe owner)

I’d say we needed two technology jumps – levo power in a tq sized/weight motor and levo battery capacity/duration in a tq sized/weight battery. If I had that I’d loose the levo.

There is about (I reckon) 6-7 kgs in it (current 9.8xt exe std, vs 20 levo expert + sks mudguards + hand guards) but it makes a BIG difference (imho – as I try to pedal as much as I can and motor off quite a lot xcer) , esp cheeky where I can get the exe thru a fenced in, tall kissing gate with a sticky gate and a crap latch and think pita but doable, on the levo it feels more like hand to hand combat and a win isn’t guaranteed, even more so when tired and wet.

We have a Levo SL built light and a S Works Turbo Levo built as light as I would want it to go. Probably the only way to lighten it more would be to go lighter on the Grid Gavity tyres or the smaller battery which would be foolish taking into account the riding I do.

I would pick the Turbo Levo over the SL every time. Got a range extender for the SL but never used it.

I think there will eventually be a compromise and we will standardise on lighter full fat bikes however I never notice the extra weight when out on the trails.

If I’m riding in a mixed group I resent every pedal stroke on my ebike and wish I was on my gravel bike or hard tail. But when with friends all riding the ebikes to their full potential I love it.

Personally I don’t think either are particularly good for all day epics yet.

On past form, the bike industry will come up with some exciting ‘new’ class of e-bike, ‘semi-skimmed and homogenised quarter fat’ or something, anything that’ll gaslight people into thinking that whatever they have now is a bit crap, he said cynically 🙂

People won’t feel fulfilled unless they own a full-fat Turbo Levo, Levo SL and a new, much better Levo QF. Battery technology will improve to the point that batteries weigh 10% less and are very slightly smaller saving almost 500g on the weight of a bike. The boys on MBR will rejoice as motors become so powerful that a single pedal stroke will catapult you instantaneously into the scenery.

And they will only cost £10k or so for an entry level bike. Why would anyone bother with a non-assisted trail bike when a new QF model is only 5kg or so heavier and so affordable… It’s going to be great.

Touring / hybrid I know, but mrs_oab’s ‘light’ hybrid (Merida eSpeeder with hub gear @15kg) gets a lot of attention. A few weeks ago we bumped into a friend with a step through touring ebike. She, and her 6 companions, were all amazed at the light weight of mrs_oab’s bike. They had all been told by shops to avoid hub motor or not even told that such a light bike exists. Many had paid more than we had. All commented that the weight of their bikes was an issue – they could not lift onto car racks, not east to get into sheds, even lugging them at the cafe we were at etc etc. A few took a spin on mrs_oabs ride and were surprised how powerful it was, commenting that they rarely use full power on road.

This of course is a non-mtb selection of 50+ ladies and touring bikes…but there are parallels I think.

IMO, much marketing on ebikes is about POWAH and huge range. Yet the average punter does not need that much power (certainly on road) and appreciates a much more balanced approach to the spec / range / weight etc.

So I think we will see a blending and balancing, away from mini-motorbikes.

Personally I don’t think either are particularly good for all day epics yet.

First all day epic on my lite over the weekend, with range extender. Didn’t really know what to expect, and I did go further higher and longer than I would under my own power.

I’ll tentatively say (for me, that ride, and my bike) pick ONE of the following:

1. go 50%+ further / higher

2. do the same ride quicker

3. ride up what you would otherwise have to push

With hindsight I realised I tried 1 and 3. From the start I rode in eco unless it was too steep, riding flat sections with no assist (from halfway eyeing the battery consumption), and still running out of battery 4/5ths the way through the ride.

On the other hand if I had a full fat I wouldn’t have been able to drag the bike through some very boggy and grown wild sections, or crossed some high narrow bridges. Could backtrack and find another way for some of those. But two bridges at the end, I’d have had to get a 50? mile taxi ride around the mountain massif back to my car.

Not unhappy, just learnt something.

‘You to can have a lightweight Emtb with an extra battery so it weighs the same as a full fat’.

With hindsight I realised I tried 1 and 3. From the start I rode in eco unless it was too steep, riding flat sections with no assist (from halfway eyeing the battery consumption), and still running out of battery 4/5ths the way through the ride

How far /how much climbing did you do before the battery ran out?

IMO, much marketing on ebikes is about POWAH and huge range. Yet the average punter does not need that much power (certainly on road) and appreciates a much more balanced approach to the spec / range / weight etc.

Is this the EV thread? 😉

Personally I don’t think either are particularly good for all day epics yet

I’ve an SL, biggest ride so far was 40 miles and 6,500ft – less climbing would get more distance etc and the other way around (I’ve done +7,500ft on a ride).

‘You to can have a lightweight Emtb with an extra battery so it weighs the same as a full fat’.

Except it doesn’t work like that – the SL’s don’t eat battery like the full-fats as they draw less ‘power’ consequentially the ‘batteries’ weigh less.

The overall bikes also weigh less (as lack of weight is a key SL selling point).

To put this “ biggest ride so far was 40 miles and 6,500ft” into context, my biggest non-ebike MTB day this year was 75 miles and 5,200ft and on the roads,190 miles and +10,000ft.

Ebikes aren’t as sorted as much as I thought they’d be by now. It still seems quite turbulent in terms of standards and reliability IMO. I hope that other brands  coming into the market like DJI, will stir things up a bit.

It still seems quite turbulent in terms of standards and reliability IMO.

I think you’ll be waiting a loooong time for any particular standardisation across motor and batteries, ie I don’t think that’ll ever happen, it’s not in the motor manufacturer interest to do that.

Reliability should be better than it is, it’s getting better with every new generation of motor from the big players, but it’s not there yet.

riding flat sections with no assist

mk1 Rise owner here.

IME theres little point doing this – on the flat most of us can ride at close to motor cut out speed without any assistance.  You get a bit, which feels good, but the battery consumption is minimal. It’s the high power modes that eat battery really quickly – stick it in boost and battery drops really fast.

There isn’t (and can’t really) be *that* much difference between a lite and full e-bike.  Theres no magic – you’re either saving weight on the motor, the battery or the build.

Making the battery “structural” means you can shave some weight from the frame.  If you limit the power you can downsize the battery for the same range and going down 1 ‘step’ (400-600-800 roughly) saves about a kilo.  The latest battery modules and good design will shave a little.

Realistically the difference is 1.5-2kg max.  Thats no more than the extra weight I carry in water over someone with a bottle on the frame.  But it’s still c10% of the bike weight and IMO makes a real difference to how the bike handles.  Sticking more weight on the bike can improve handling if it’s in the right place (see Chris Porter adding lead to the BB area. I used to have a Pinion gearbox bike and it was definitely noticable).  But the extra kg of battery is necessarily fairly high – not good. And that weight is definitely noticeable carrying or lifting a bike and I can feel the extra in my upper body after a ride.

The amflow is interesting – I don’t believe the weights.  the motor only seems to be c150g lighter than a Shimano but it’s a 600 battery as standard and a 800 on some.  Those should add 1 / 2kg over a Rise, but they seem to be claiming less.

And then real world range? better heat management could increase efficiency but I wonder how much – and the enormous power and torque will surely rinse the battery super quick if you actually use it.  Its the power limit rather than torque which lets orbea give good range with smaller batteries.

How far /how much climbing did you do before the battery ran out?

Over 50km and 1300m, but some of that was was with assist off as I mentioned.

‘You to can have a lightweight Emtb with an extra battery so it weighs the same as a full fat’.

Nope, mine is 19.6kg with pedals, sealant, and range extender.

IME theres little point doing this – on the flat most of us can ride at close to motor cut out speed without any assistance.  You get a bit, which feels good, but the battery consumption is minimal. It’s the high power modes that eat battery really quickly – stick it in boost and battery drops really fast.

It was showing the bike putting out 100W which I didn’t really need as I could drop a few gears and still not be really working hard, it must make some difference.

Over 50km and 1300m, but some of that was was with assist off as I mentioned

That’s the tq hpr50 motor if I remember your earlier post correctly? That’s decent range/height gain for that battery + range extender.

I’ll typically get about 1150m climbing from the same motor/battery+range extender, different bike though. using mainly the middle mode for the climbs, and eco for the rest, but I have tweaked my motor settings up a bit for the middle mode from stock.

The best I have had is 850m from just the range extender, but I only used eco and off and  I’d really turned down eco mode so it added no more than 60w. I was abroad and had flown with the bike so had to leave the main battery at home and was only using the range extender.

If you’re doing a ride that you know is going to push the limits of the range I find that switching to no assist for the flats and down hills  does make quite a difference to the overall range you can get out of it, but I guess it depends how much overall riding on the flat  you’re doing.

It was showing the bike putting out 100W which I didn’t really need as I could drop a few gears and still not be really working hard, it must make some difference.

I found that the default  eco mode settings  on the tq were relatively high, so it burned more battery that you think on the flats, If I’m doing a big ride I’ll turn eco right down to something like 60% assist, and a max of 60w to really eke the battery out.  Or just ride with the bike off on all the flat bits.

Many of these threads seem to inevitably end up in most of us defending the bikes we already have. I think it’s clear that there are pros and cons to each type of e-bike. I bought a Mondraker Neat lightweight e-bike, and I’m very happy with my decision. But I’ve just been on a long days riding in the alps with a friend on a full fat e-bike. I was very happy with my bike, and I used my range extender, so range was not an issue for me. But my friends LaPierre had an amazing amount of spare capacity still available at the end of the ride.

For me, the ‘ natural’ feel of the lightweight e-bike was part of what I valued. Other big advantages were the fact that I could carry the bike on the roof of try car, and that I could remove the battery for charging. But I assume we could have most of these things with full-fat bikes too (except lifting onto the car, unless I was Geoff Capes).

my feeling is that there will always be different types of bikes available (just like there are different types of analog bikes). So I expect that full-fat e-bikes will be available in more slimmed down versions. But for people like me, the appeal of a e-bike which still demands some effort from me, and feels more like a regular bike will always be appealing – rather than the ‘stick it on turbo and cruise up the climbs’. But from what I can see out on the trails, I’m in a minority.

I still like feeling like I’ve worked for my downhills. And I’m still nervous about sacrificing too much of my fitness. But I’m thoroughly enjoying that my typical daily ride is now 7-8km, rather than the 4-5km ride on my analog bike. I don’t need a full fat bike or my range extender to achieve that obviously. So the lightweight still appeals to me. But if you’re looking for 50km out in the hills, then I can see why a full fat ebike would appeal. (I’m confident that my Neat would cope fine (with the range extender) but the larger battery is clearly going to induce much less range anxiety).