Sort reveals why voting for named individuals with a limited term is such a bad way of dealing with abstract ideas like unions between countries. If the SNP had any actual belief in what a call for independence fundamentally was; they would’ve done so by now thus producing the court battle which would give the security to Scotland that a political party actual can never do. But it hasn’t…

And …Brexit (which let’s remind ourselves was voted for by nearly 40% of Scots) is no solution to our common problems, but I don’t think further Scottish Independence is the right answer to resolve the issues it has revealed.

molgrips
Full Member
none

Thought so. This is purely an emotional issue for you.

Believe what you like, and crack on telling people what they think. 😆

One thing I think is certain, is that the discussion next time will be more internally focused in Scotland. So youse can try yer best… 😆

Believe what you like, and crack on telling people what they think

You’ve been doing this all along, didn’t you call me a British nationalist?

So youse can try yer best…

To do what? I’m not anti-independence…

molgrips
Full Member
You’ve been doing this all along, didn’t you call me a British nationalist?

Only cause you keep flinging about the nationalist tag yourself.

Only cause you keep flinging about the nationalist tag yourself.

I’m calling you a nationalist because that’s what you appear to be based on your posts.

You’re calling me one purely because I called you one? Even though I’ve tried a fair few times to outline my position.

I’m always willing to listen if you want to explain your position in a bit more detail. It’ll take more than a few one line posts though.

I doubt we’re going to agree anyhow, you refuse to accept the sovereignty of the people of scotland, so seems never the twain shall meet.

@molgrips I get where you’re coming from, I really do. Far better to be part of something bigger than going it alone. But that was the campaign angle of Better Together who told us the only way to ensure we were still in the EU would be to vote against independence. We were promised greater devolution (see ‘The Vow’) and received nothing. NI has also been hung out to dry. This union is broken, fundamentally so, the Westminster governments seem hell bent on a policy of isolationism and re-centralisation (and where that doesn’t work just leave them to fight amongst themselves). It’s shit and frankly I don’t see why we should put up with it. I’d happily walk away but that doesn’t mean we can’t return as equals in future, there would have to be a lot of change to let that happen though. It’s like leaving a shitty job, you don’t want to but you also know if you stay you will suffer.

To answer the OP, federalism, PR and a major shift in our international outlook. I don’t see that happening though.

you refuse to accept the sovereignty of the people of scotland

What I’m getting at here is why YOU want independence and what your motives are. If you’re in the bad motive camp or the good motive camp.

I suspect the nationalists of having what I view as the bad motives, because if they were being pragmatic they’d have had three choices on the ballot paper in 2014.

Who is the arbiter of good or bad, you? 😆

I’m the arbiter of my own opinions yes 🙂

The thread is about why retain the union btw, it’s for the unionists to put their case forward on this thread…

I suspect the nationalists of having what I view as the bad motives, because if they were being pragmatic they’d have had three choices on the ballot paper in 2014.

What 3rd option was on offer?

Federalism, as in an actual defined option not a vague promise, is the clear third option; there are strong arguments for it and it has a lot of support I suspect.

But that wasn’t within the remit of the Scottish Government to offer.

Federalism

Wasn’t on offer.

Wasn’t in the gift of the SNP to provide.

The UK Govt could have proposed it in the time between the Section 30 and the referendum, but they didn’t.

And we’ve done the issues with FedUK previously; assymetry and lack of will in England chiefly.

Hear me out… My sympathies lie with Scottish independence because of the divergent outlook of Westminster and Holyrood. Holyrood looks to be a European style social democracy whilst Westminster deregulates and cocks up on everything from transport to building regs.

Can you name the European country that Scotland is culturally closer to than England (or rUK for that matter)?

Holyrood stuffs up plenty as does Westminster, both have executives that withhold information from parliamentary scrutiny, both pass misguided laws, both make mistakes as for regulation this would be on the news regularly if it was the EA. https://regulatoryapproach.sepa.org.uk/cyber-attack-service-status/

The tories control Westminster maybe true now but it’s not going to be true forever modern UK elections don’t work that way and the party in charge changes hands regularly and it’s quite likely we could have three successive labour governments again fairly soon.

Keeping the Union stops a border between us, no amount of “we will negotiate hard to make sure there isn’t” is going to stop there being one at the insistence of the EU. With the border will come rancour, and that would be a shame when you look at the shared history, culture, family ties, friendships and togetherness. In Holyrood nothing will change, it will still be Westminster’s fault, in rUK the focus will be on the recovery from the divide. Michael Gove will have his rUK nationality revoked and be sent back to the country he was born and educated in.

The difference between Holyrood and Westminster is huge. the key thing being Holyrood is properly representative, is fully elected and is actually answerable to the people

As scotroutes say about federalism. Its something I would prefer but I can see no way of making it work – especially since all trust is long gone since the debacle of “the vow” and then evel

Can you name the European country that Scotland is culturally closer to than England (or rUK for that matter)?

Which bit of Scotland 🙂 Which bit of england? the northern isles are certainly closer to scandenavia than england. the highlands as well. central belt is more like the low countries ( maybe half way between) and the borders are closer to England

seosahm77

The thread is about why retain the union btw, it’s for the unionists to put their case forward on this thread…

Couldn’t agree more…

My biggest worry is that since i’m in England, any issues with the union might risk my ability to get square sausage and tablet at a decent price :o(

@nickc

And …Brexit (which let’s remind ourselves was voted for by nearly 40% of Scots) is no solution to our common problems, but I don’t think further Scottish Independence is the right answer to resolve the issues it has revealed.

If you are going to remind yourself of things – can you remind yourself of accurate things? Yes 38% of votes cast were in favour of leaving, but that was only just over 1M votes – of a population of about 5.5M i.e. < 20% of the “Scots” VOTED for Brexit. Even if you consider only those who were eligible to vote, it was only 25% of the Electorate.

My biggest worry is that since i’m in England, any issues with the union might risk my ability to get square sausage and tablet at a decent price :o(

A market opportunity in post indy rUK? “Scottish shops” like the “Polish shops” that emerged from immigration.

Michael Gove will have his rUK nationality revoked and be sent back to the country he was born and educated in.

big_n_daft – paint that on the side of a bus and you’ll get more pro indy voters in England than Scotland!

molgrips
Full Member
Federalism, as in an actual defined option not a vague promise, is the clear third option; there are strong arguments for it and it has a lot of support I suspect.

how can federalism work without the break up of england?

big_n_daft
Free Member
Can you name the European country that Scotland is culturally closer to than England (or rUK for that matter)?
With the border will come rancour, and that would be a shame when you look at the shared history, culture, family ties, friendships and togetherness.

For me? Ireland, the border makes no odds.

There is zero chance of federalism being on the cards. That’s pure delusional fantasy.

and it’s quite likely we could have three successive labour governments again fairly soon.

Its about as likely as me getting a date with Kiera Knightly

There is zero chance of federalism being on the cards. That’s pure delusional fantasy.

Indeed, and that’s because the English don’t want it because they want the power and the SNP don’t want it because they want full independence for what I suspect are similarly emotive reasons.

Indeed, and that’s because the English don’t want it

So how was it the “bad nationalists” fault that it wasn’t an option in 2014?

I suspect the nationalists of having what I view as the bad motives, because if they were being pragmatic they’d have had three choices on the ballot paper in 2014.

Unless you can define what a ‘nationalist’ is, you should stop using it as a general term.
Talk about Scottish nationalists or British nationalists or whatever.
But to go on about ‘nationalists’ is meaningless and hypocritical because…you are one.

molgrips
Full Member
There is zero chance of federalism being on the cards. That’s pure delusional fantasy.

Indeed, and that’s because the English don’t want it because they want the power and the SNP don’t want it because they want full independence for what I suspect are similarly emotive reasons.

You can’t say that when it’s just not a realistic option. You’re in fantasy land territory there.

SNP don’t want it because they want full independence for what I suspect are similarly emotive reasons.

I am unsure that its just emotive or that that is the right word. For some ( 1/3 of scots?) they want an independent scotland because they want self determination at all costs. another 1/3 sit in the middle able to be persuaded either way, 1/3 are Unionists for the same “emotive” reasons

Your problem is you can make a good argument on political ground ( flexibility to have policy to suit etc etc) for Scots independence. there is no counter argument for the union. there is nothing that the union offers Scotland that we want that we could not do better when independent

If you are going to remind yourself of things – can you remind yourself of accurate things? Yes 38% of votes cast were in favour of leaving, but that was only just over 1M votes – of a population of about 5.5M i.e. < 20% of the “Scots” VOTED for Brexit. Even if you consider only those who were eligible to vote, it was only 25% of the Electorate.

My maths says if 38%=1m votes then 62%=1.631m, so out of a population of 5.5m only 29.66% of Scots voted for remain…
.
Yes, I know 29% is bigger than 20% but we cant make assumptions about those who didn’t vote. 29% want to remain, 20% want to leave and it appears 51% dont care either way. (I’ve just accepted your numbers BTW, I didnt check the 49% turnout figure)

but we cant make assumptions about those who didn’t vote.

If people don’t vote, it just makes yours and my vote stronger. You can’t infer anything. If they want an opinion, they can vote.

there is nothing that the union offers Scotland that we want that we could not do better when independent

Except free trade with your largest and nearest trading partner?

If you’re to join the EU a boarder will be a necessity. It will push up costs and that will affect the smaller party more than the larger. Maybe restoration of free trade with the EU will offset that

I’ve come to see it as inevitable unless Labour really pull something out of the bag and I don’t think they have the will never mind the means. The SNP has too much momentum now. I’ll wish you well but I think it’ll be very difficult for at least the short term (10-20 years). Not because the government of the day UK will make it so out of spite or anything like that – it’s just business at that point. I’d expect my government to do the best deal for us not you. That’s just the way it will go.

I look at Brexit

I look at an impending referendum

And I have some unease….

Except free trade with your largest and nearest trading partner?

Europe?

Not being able to freely trade with England is Englands decision not Scotlands. England utter stupidity in leave the EU is what causes the barrier not Scots independence. Scots independence in the EU gives us a far larger tarriff free market

I said tj maybe free trade with the EU will offset the losses in (extremely!) free trade with the rest of the UK. A border won’t be ‘England’s’ choice, any more than it will be rUK’s, or for that matter an independent Scotland’s (in the EU) The EU will demand their border.

Its 100% Englands choice because they left the EU. No one else has any responsibility

Leaving the EU means hard borders. Its not the EUs fault – its Englands