Niave question but don’t understand why eg tories so keen to retain the union. Don’t really buy the whole history stronger together rule Britannia stuff. I don’t think the tories etc really care that much about Scotland and what we do but it’s about the vested interests of eg oil, renewables, grouse moors, nuclear war heads etc. Am I stating the bleeding obvious? Why else would they really care?

Stronger together, to an extent. Obviously a bigger country can afford more toys than a small one. From Nukes, to cancer research you can afford more “stuff”.

I think if Brexit thought us anything, it’s that the smaller country is f***ed in the negotiations. So in that sense Boris really is standing up for Scotland’s interest, because once theirs and the rest of the UKs diverge he’s duty bound to screw them.

Oil is dead, I work/worked in it for years, it’s had it’s dead cat bounce and is currently crawling away into the bushes, think of renewables as like calling the vet.

Renewables, Scotland’s had a proportionaly bigger slice of that pie, but it’s not state owned so off the table anyway.

For the same reason the english government were prepared to use military (and other) force to retain control of Ireland. ‘We may not want it, but no-one else is going to have it!”; they can’t face the loss of control and power over their ‘subjects’. The tories think they were born to rule, they used their army for years to keep control of their ‘colonies’, despite the loss of life and property it involved.

The Tories are well known for their generosity and hence are happy to subsidise their poor neighbours.

It’s not just a Tory thing though – labour just as keen. Agree on tax returns dafyyd.

The Tories are well known for their generosity and hence are happy to subsidise their poor neighbours.

Not sure if it relies on some selective stat, but the biggest single employer in Scotland is Faslane?

I.e. the government, and specifically a bit that isn’t devolved and SNP have said they don’t want after independence.

[EDIT] Just googled and apparently it’s true. Also per capita almost twice as much of the military and other deffence infrastructure is based in Scotland. So that’s money currently spent in Scotland too.

My point being that those jobs are going to be really hard to replace post independence. Allong with their spending power.

But those jobs don’t actually make, grow, or provide anything, do they? You could pay all those people their wages not to work, and everyone else in Scotland could carry on as normal, their lives unchanged.

A worrying and pertinent question for those of us Scots living south of the border and keeping bits of England / Britain afloat.

It’s not the biggest employer (that title falls to NHS) but it is the second biggest single site (no 1 spot is Qn Eliz Hospital).

I don’t think SNP are opposed a sub base (even a rUK nuclear NATO base) its the nuclear weapons they don’t want.

Don’t really buy the whole history stronger together rule Britannia stuff.

You may not but the Scots of 400 years ago seemed to value it because Rule Britannia was penned by a Scot and was a poem/anthem to celebrate Britain (not England) fighting against and defeating those that enslaved us by the millions over hundreds of years like the Vikings and the Barbary Pirates of North Africa for the African and Middle Eastern slave markets. We have a long and intertwined and very mutually beneficial history (once we stopped fighting each other that is).

As an Englishman living in Scotland who’s former partner is Northern Irish I value the union very much indeed. Being part of one bigger country just makes everything easier.
I find it ironic (and it would be funny if it wasnt so serious) that every arguement Sturgeon and her gang made for staying in the EU could be applied to the UK but multiplied many times over, we are so closely bound that it will be impossible to unravel that, and so interdependent that no-one in their right mind would want to.
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I get a strong sense up here, and indeed the OP has implied it, that what a majority of the pro independence supporters actually want is rid of the Tories, and will go as far as destroying the union to get that. They are a temporary problem, if Starmer et al, or his successor or whoever’s, ever get their act together, please, please dont wreck this country just because you dont like Boris, he will be gone soon, remember Thatcher looked unbeatable and then Blair came along and it looked like the Tories were dying out altogether, politics moves in cycles, dont wreck the union just because you cant wait for the next one to come around

Why break the union?

Why retain the union?

The Union? Why not? Common interest and almost the same same culture too.

If Scotland “becomes independence” SNP will just replace “Torie” to become the northern “Tories” of Scotland. They will emphasise their Scottish identify but more or less take on the conservative twist. Probably far more right wing too as they perceived themselves to be the “minority” in the world.

Blaming Tories is very convenient for own failing but when Tories is no longer there who else do you think SNP is going to blame? Look at your own politicians and like all politicians in the world they are the first point of failures. No will, blame others in order to justify their own existence, ride the gravy train, cannot manage, elitist etc. These are old tricks being repeated.

Also all the promises of free goodies will need to come from somewhere which is not impossible but more hard work to produce them. Not impossible but hard hard work if the population is not gear up to that.

“president Sturgeon” might be there to rule for a period of time but when her time is over, being an ambitious person with no baggage, she will further her EU ambition whatever until she retires. Then what? What if the next president or PM becomes the puppet of EU superstate? What next?

If Scotland did not perform well before Brexit with all the autonomy, will that change after independence? Doubt so in the immediate 5 generations. Those that benefits will just be those in charged or politically active hugging their political ideology tightly. The rest will just be the slaves to the system but this time it will be more immediate.

Also, what if Shetland wants to become independence? Will Scotland allow Shetland to go independence or do they see Shetland to be ruled over?

… please, please dont wreck this country just because you dont like Boris, …” Nahhh … why beg? Life is too short to beg. If they really want to go then people south of the boarder will just have to adjust like anyone else in a new system.

Nothing to do with Boris or Tories or Labour etc as they are merely convenient bogeymen.

Re faslane- you do realise how many companies provide things like construction, design, maintenance, food, supplies, materials etc. so if it went it effects thousands.

Rosyth has 2000 staff and builds british ships.

Overall only 2.6 million scots work but our population is over twice that. So who pays for the other half???

What does scotland make to sell to the outside world? You do realise thats how a countries economy works? We cant all live off Whisky profits and our crap tourism (think how welcome tourists are on Skye…)

Without England, Wales and Ni we would be in a proper state.

Look at the mistake made of leaving Europe. All great ideologically till it actually happens…

Teams will always beat individuals.

Not sure if it relies on some selective stat, but the biggest single employer in Scotland is Faslane?

The NHS is. those jobs at Faslane are few and very expensive. the NHS employs far more people.

Being part of one bigger country just makes everything easier

Except for voting in decent governments.

Or dealing with drugs issues.

Nuclear disarmament.

Etc.

Being a small country in a union with a very different voting path to rest of the UK is actually very difficult when the bigger portion vote in absolute cocks bags every single time.

those jobs at Faslane are few and very expensive

It’s hardly a local employer either.

what if Shetland wants to become independence? Will Scotland allow Shetland to go independence or do they see Shetland to be ruled over?

This seems to get banded about in daily mail derisive retorts about Independent Scotland, but the truth appears far from cut and dried. They have suggested they could be more like a crown dependent that completely independent,” All three islands also voted against independence, with the Western Isles voting slightly less against independence, and Orkney and Shetland both voting significantly more against independence than the national average.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_status_of_Orkney,_Shetland_and_the_Western_Isles#Proposals_for_%22counter-independence%22_referendum

Overall only 2.6 million scots work but our population is over twice that. So who pays for the other half???

Are you taking into account, kids, old folk, the disabled ?.But I think you’ll actually find that nearly 75% of the Scottish working age population is currently employed.

Scotland actually already has a reasonable mix of economic activity. You cant selectively ignore major elements such as financial services, science and technology and light engineering and manufacturing.  Renewables, tourism, and whisky are going to be big players independence or not, but they’re not the only games in town. Creative industries employ 77000 people according to https://www.sdi.co.uk/key-sectors/creative-industries

We do not need to be a massive* powerhouse at anything,  because there simply aren’t many people here.

Teams will always beat individuals.

Good point, so Scotland should join the biggest nearby team. Sound like a plan….

*which in one blatantly obvious example we actually are

there is no doubt at all that an independent Scotland is viable and can be prosperous. If Denmark, the netherlands, finland etc can be then no reason why Scotland cannot – we have advantages they do not.

There are around 1/3 of the population that are ideological supporters of independence. around 1/3 are unionists who will not change. In the middle there are those like me for whom its a pragmatic choice. Its not my preffered option but of the choices avialable to me its the best one. I want a modern progressive social democratic government as is the norm in europe. Independence is the only way I will get it.

Why are the tories so keen to prevent it? Pride and prestige. Plus of course the money scotland provides is very handy – supporting the balance of payments and thus making the £ stronger

I get a strong sense up here, and indeed the OP has implied it, that what a majority of the pro independence supporters actually want is rid of the Tories, and will go as far as destroying the union to get that. They are a temporary problem

That’s the thing, it is not a temporary problem. England is a Tory country who votes for the Tory party and that is increasing not decreasing. There was a blip with Blair but that was down to a combination of timing/leader/media which we may never see again.
Last 70 years tories have been in majority of the time and next 30 years may be in for all of them so not really temporary is it.
Scotland want a different society than England. Complete devolution would probably do it while keeping the union. A bit like a very good EU deal could have avoided the need for Brexit.

Wobbliscott, that was comedy gold! “Millions of slaves over hundreds of years” and then you topped it by suggesting Scots were grateful for the Union.

Wobbliscott, can you link me to the sources that you base that Scottish desire and gratitude for the act of union on please? I am a bit concerned as I appear to have been teaching it wrong to my Higher pupils all these years and the SQA has been falsely awarding my lot marks. You may want to also revisit the slavery claim…

Teams will always beat individuals

Nah, have you seen John Wick?

Just to be clear I’m really not implying just tories although I do think they are probably worst perpetrators. Tories just a convenient proxy for the range of parties and people so keen to retain the union but somewhat spurious or quiet on clear reasons for why. Interesting that some of above quickly veers away from why to Scotland couldn’t survive we should be great full etc and rehashing the history rule Britannia stance that I just don’t think washes.

I find it ironic (and it would be funny if it wasnt so serious) that every arguement Sturgeon and her gang made for staying in the EU could be applied to the UK

That’s my somewhat ignorant take on it. I do agree that a lot of the anti-union sentiment is possibly mixed up with anti-Tory sentiment.

Hard to let the head (wider longer term best interests) rule the heart (we hate those arrogant bastards)

I genuinely hope the Scots do go independent, re-join EU and prosper: shellfish, whisky, tourism, vast swathes of land for industry and warehousing, EU trading benefits etc etc etc.

It will stop them being fatally strangled by the Tories who don’t give a toss about anybody but themselves. They’re shafting the English, what chance do the Scots stand north of the Watford gap?

The fact that Johnson wants to keep Scotland in the union should set off MAJOR alarm bells. There must be massive financial benefit (or loss) to them, nothing else. They’re constructively getting rid of NI which is a costly PITA for them.

The EU would jump at the chance of having Scotland back in even if only to stick 2 fingers back to Johnson.

The EU could then put more pressure on the Tories to negotiate deals or face the reinstatement of Hadrian’s Wall border checks!

Does all this sound like far fetched fantasy? Scotland too tied to the union/England? No proven financial cost/business benefits?

Remember BREXIT?

Dunno, perhaps Tories feel that Britain is their country & are upset that someone is trying to destroy it. Not sure why someone of a nationalist mindset finds that hard to understand.

As an Englishman living in Scotland who’s former partner is Northern Irish I value the union very much indeed. Being part of one bigger country just makes everything easier.

How’s that worked out in Ireland over the years then?

I think it’s a pretty hard case to make , not because I’m pro independence but I think if your campaigning for things to stay the same that’s a pretty hard sell to people who are having a hard time , whereas if your the ones selling change you can promise free unicorns for all or even 350 million a week for the NHS . Which sounds a lot better than “your life is pretty crap but please vote to keep the system that has you living in poverty”

I agree that many of the arguments for staying in the EU could apply to Scotland and UK, however so could many of the arguments for leaving (Sovereignty, Control of our fish etc).
As is so often the case the discussions take place in black / white, good / bad positions while the actual situation is very grey.

I am English born, moved up to Scotland and plan to stay. I now consider myself a Scot.
Voted ‘No’ in 2014 but now may be a reluctant yes voter, not 100% sure.
For people like myself independence is not a good outcome but may be the least worst.

I look at the politics of England and the likely future direction and think that its not for me.
As one of the previous posters stated many in Scotland wish to be in a more ‘Scocial Democratic’ type country, this does not look likely as part of the UK.

It seems to me that most of the posts to this thread are dancing round the OP’s original question ie Why are the main UK political parties so keen to keep the union?
Perhaps there are those in the Labour Party who fondly remember the days when they could count on the majority of Scottish seats being theirs but IMHO those days are long gone and will not come again.
As for the Conservatives, there would appear to be a clear advantage to them if Scotland were independent as it would virtually guarantee the Tories a huge majority in the rUK parliament.
For many years now the Tories have been saying that Scotland is financially dependent on the rest of the UK. If that’s true( which is a whole different argument) then rUK would obviously be better off with an independent Scotland.
The History/tradition argument just doesn’t seem strong enough to counter these. So, I’m convinced there must be some other reasons for the Tories implacable opposition to Scottish independence.
It just isn’t clear to me what those reasons are.

Which sounds a lot better than “your life is pretty crap but please vote to keep the system that has you living in poverty”

Instead of which please vote for something which will make you even poorer (Brexit/Indy)

This ‘gem’ stood out.

Overall only 2.6 million scots work but our population is over twice that. So who pays for the other half???

Population of England – 56 million
Working population of England – 30 million

And let’s remember, the Tories haven’t got a majority vote here since Eden was PM – is there anyone reading this thread who was alive when Eden was PM?

So, I’m convinced there must be some other reasons for the Tories implacable opposition to Scottish independence.

Perhaps because the conservatives, and to some extent, labour have done very well out of the status quo; union, royal family, large Scottish estates, doffing your cap to your betters etc and are therefore opposed to any seismic changes which will undermine this. The system is bent but it suits lots of people, especially those at the top of the tree and when there’s little benefit in it for them such as dealing with the north of Ireland the tories are quite happy to stiff the union.

But those jobs don’t actually make, grow, or provide anything, do they? You could pay all those people their wages not to work, and everyone else in Scotland could carry on as normal, their lives unchanged.

If you tried that, it would be interesting to see what happens when Putin tires his monthly saber rattling flypass. I don’t imagine Migs over Loch Ness appeared on the independence posters 🤣.

I’m a pacifist too, but appreciate we live in an imperfect world where not everyone is.

A worrying and pertinent question for those of us Scots living south of the border and keeping bits of England / Britain afloat.

But those aren’t part of the negotiations. I was giving an example of a few tens of thousands of government jobs paid for by Westminster that the mood music from the SNP sounds like it doesn’t want.

Unless you can point to some similarly large SNP infrastructure south of the Border that the rest of the UK is going to struggle to maintain?

I’m sure there’s plenty of individuals who’ll cary on working on their relative wrong sides of the border post independence.

I have lots of Scottish relatives, they were split on the first independence ref, a few are sucked into the whole sectarian bollocks being pro Brit/ Rangers bores. They were doing cartwheels when brexit result came, the irony now is that they’ve helped move independence forward significantly!
Fwiw, I suspect one scenario is that the union breaks up, England is left all alone, and we all end up back in the EU anyhow!

If you tried that, it would be interesting to see what happens when Putin tires his monthly saber rattling flypass. I don’t imagine Migs over Loch Ness appeared on the independence posters 🤣.

I can’t see how it would make any difference provided nothing that goes “bang” falls off. All we do – fortunately – is shout and point when Putin flies them close to England.

Unless you can point to some similarly large SNP infrastructure south of the Border that the rest of the UK is going to struggle to maintain?

Presumably they would need 1/10th less of any non-devolved govt department that doesn’t have that proportion of its staff in scotland -,eg dvla ~6000 staff virtuallt all in wales. Must be others – scottish gov would need to set up those departments too.

Interesting thread. There is lots of the usual rhetoric but I can’t actually see any answers to the OP’s original question, although I appreciate that some have tried.

independence is not a good outcome but may be the least worst.

Sadly that’s the kind of option we now have in a lot of votes, which is a damning endictment of our politics, our politicians, our electorate and our lack of collective vision.

As a middle aged British person, living in England, I despair what the independence movements are going to leave me with and the society it may become. Can certainly see at least one of the kids moving abroad to get away from it, but realistically that won’t be an option for me with elderly but healthy relatives to deal with. **** **** ****