Why give Greece more cash?

Cut Greece free, the EU doesn’t need a member like that. The losses are huge but will increase the longer Greece is in the EU.
They have cultural issues that don’t match up with tax collection and spending in other countries.

Sad for the ordinary bloke in the street but their politicians wanted in on the EU gravy train and the electorate lapped it up.

Time to bring it to an end, anybody who thinks Greece will pay that money back is living in fantasy land.

The consequence of a Greek exit can be dealt with at the time, you could talk about ‘what ifs’ and continue throwing money at the problem for years yet, no thanks.

Apparently money well spent in pursuit of the neo liberal agenda?

Neo-liberal – really??

How about simply a poorly designed and badly implemented fudge. Neo-liberal economics (to the extent that it actually exists) is a far cry from the folly of imposing a fixed exchange rate on a non optimum-currency area and without fully integrated monetary and fiscal policy.

It’s not neo-liberalism, it’s just bad economics and doomed to failure. It has only ever been a question of time.

jambalaya – Member
Austerity means balancing the books

Well not quite, but anyway lets not forget that they are running a budget surplus in the middle of an appalling recession – not exactly what the textbook tells us. In fact it’s crippling them.

Compare that with our version of austerity (sic) which is just less accommodative fiscal stimulus. We are moaning when we are still spending more than we earn and pretend that is austerity. Meanwhile in Greece……

mrhoppy – Member
Mostly so I can get home again. This holiday has felt a little like playing Russian Roulette.

Well, we’ve been here for six weeks and will be here for another five. If it wasn’t for the fact that I have work to do in the grim north I’d quite happily stay a hell of a lot longer than that.
Of course, it’s nothing like a holiday, seeing that we spend nearly half the year here (and will continue to do so)………

To be honest, the only things that I miss about my “other life” are a few people that are important to me (including a couple of riding mates, nobody around here rides what I like to).

Europe faces more serious issues from terrorism so it’s time to end the distraction that Greece has become and kick them out of the EU, NATO too if they keep copying up with Russia.

The threat from terrorism is insignificant – fuel poverty for example kills far more than terrorism does.

Indeed it is the perceived terrorist threat which is used as a distraction to the real issues facing Europe.

Got to agree with THM here. This has got sod all to do with neoliberal economics. This has everything to do with the rank stupidity of creating a single currency to cover countries of such wildly divergent economies as Germany and Greece. It was never ever going to work. Thank god we had nothing to do with it. Say what you like about Gordon Brown, but he had enough nouse not to touch this one with a barge pole.

The Euro is a disaster. It was never going to be anything else. Its a fundamentally unworkable idea, being propped up for political reasons, by people completely removed from reality, and insulated from the dire consequences of their completely flawed idealogical project. The problem is that it could actually get a damn site worse! It could end up bankrupting an entire continent. And for what?!

Madness!

So , just to clarify, these events have not altered either binners or THM’s view of the Euro.
Who could have predicted this ?

teamhurtmore – Member

Compare that with our version of austerity

It’s funny isn’t it. The Greek version is cuts that could be designed to damage their economy. The UK version is to just disregard the economy except as an excuse to make the cuts you want to, while not actually saving the money you say you will. It’s like everyone likes saying the word but nobody really knows what it means.

JY – If you could give us any reasons why this ongoing car crash would change our opinions, I’d love to hear them

You can start your essay “the Euro isn’t a totally bloody stupid, unworkable idea because….. “

GO!!!

I think I would rather try the essay that starts
Liverpool are the greatest team and they deserve to win the league because
More chance of persuading you

😉

😀

NW – one of the most misused terms of the last few years!!!

Northwind – Member

teamhurtmore – Member

Compare that with our version of austerity

It’s funny isn’t it. The Greek version is cuts that could be designed to damage their economy. The UK version is to just disregard the economy except as an excuse to make the cuts you want to, while not actually saving the money you say you will. It’s like everyone likes saying the word but nobody really knows what it means.
Common theme seems to be that the most vulnerable people pay the dearest price

@gordimor the least wealthy people are more reliant on the state for help so when the state gets it wrong they suffer disproportionately. There might never be a more stark example than Greece

I would agree with you but you just cannot argue nor fault a man who calls it 100% correct 100% of the time.

You persistently misquote me JY. However lets be clear I am right on this topic

DrJ all you make is emotional arguments, that doesn’t cut with me and it won’t cut it with the Troika. There is no conspiracy in my post, the EU standing firm will benefit the euro and Tsipras photo ops with the near bankrupt Russia aren’t worth taking seriously. Greeks don’t want out of the euro and they certainly don’t want to live Russia/mini Soviet Union. So this bluff from Greece is easily called. The IMF where as tough with Labour in the 1970’s as they are being with Greece, it’s always been their way.

When this is all said and guys you can search through and point out where I was wrong. The EU was prepared to fudge things and grant an extension to the bailout when Greece doesn’t warrant one, the EU wasn’t prepared to be as tough as I suggest it should be (and as tmh suggests is required) but Greece may well have pushed them into the place where they should have gone but didn’t have the cahoonas

The threat from terrorism is insignificant – fuel poverty for example kills far more than terrorism does.

@ernie Hot weather kills more people than cold, humans are quite good at dealing with the cold provided they can keep dry. We didn’t have much in the way of heating 100 years ago. Also pure numbers aren’t the point, more people die in the UK in car accidents. Obviously the 400,000 who’ve died in Syria and Iraq skew the overall numbers

Hot weather kills more people than cold,

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Hot+weather+kills+more+people+than+cold&oq=Hot+weather+kills+more+people+than+cold&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

There is the google result if you just use that claim. Its fair to say that statement is just wrong.

Unless you bother to address this point there is not much point “debating” with you as you just ignore the [many] bits where facts show your statements to be incorrect and still just say you are right this time. Perhaps you wish to claim I misquoted you again?

Slow motion train wreck being put on pause for the sake of not being perceived as a systemic failure, undermining the bullish EU moral high ground in front of the disgusting peasants and serfs, who haven’t suffered enough, sweet dreams little prince 😀

Obviously the 400,000 who’ve died in Syria and Iraq skew the overall numbers

Terrorism is a big problem in Syria and Iraq, no small thanks to us in the West with our meddling, it isn’t a big problem in Europe, as you seemed to suggest.

@jamba – on the contrary – you are the one who talks about guilt and obligation, spiced up with anecdotes and misunderstanding of basic facts. I have pointed out, as indeed have the IMF along with countless commentators, that the troika plans cannot and will not work, as indeed they have not in the past. As a matter of pragmatism another way should have been found. Unfortunately personal issues seem to have clouded the rational judgement of the EZ finmins who have now tipped over their pram. Interesting times.

JY my comments about the elderly come from speaking to my friends who specialise in that type of care. Old people die in the winter not sue to cold (and specifically fuel poverty) but due to things like respiratory illnesses etc. I’m sure DrJ can enlighten us further but it’s off topic really, I was just responding to ernie.

Terrorism is a massive threat to us in the west. In terms of security and economic impact. We can agree to differ on that. We don’t see the number of incidents here as our security forces are working hard to keep us safe. Let’s see during the remainder of Ramadan how many other incidents there are particularly on Fridays.

My grasp of the facts and realities of Greece’s financial position and the rampant corruption and tax evasion is unassailable and totally aligned with the lenders here. You yourself spoke of how you had to make payments to get medical treatment. Without the bailout in 2010 the banks would have forced a Greek bankruptcy, the 2010 was political and not justified from a financial perspective, Varoufakis is seen by the finance ministers as a timewaster which is why he was sidelined, it frankly would make no difference which personalities Greece put in front of the EU their strategy was always to push this to the very edge. We shall see whether lemming like the Greeks jump to financial suicide

Syriza is playing a very dangerous game and a Greek default will be far worse than any austerity they’ve seen to date. The pre crises Greek economy was a fraud, it has begun its correction towards the correct level. It’s a poor country with significant structural issues trying to behave like a modern, rich country which it most definitely is not

Plenty of market research notes have been published this weekend, people are ready for whatever outcome we see this week. Whatever they say publically the eurozone have been preparing for a Greek default and euro exit for months

Anyway off riding now, will check in around 10pm

My grasp of the facts and realities of Greece’s financial position and the rampant corruption and tax evasion is unassailable and totally aligned with the lenders here.

He he! Classic Jamba!

Think this is the end of the line for Greece staying in the euro now that ECB has pulled life support for the Greek banking system. The Government and banks will probably be insolvent tomorrow.

My grasp of the facts and realities of Greece’s financial position and the rampant corruption and tax evasion is unassailable and totally aligned with the lenders here.

There is a non sequitur there given that the lenders have got this badly wrong in the first place. Perhaps that is the issue?

Worse than austerity? A programme with no end and no solution that has devastated the economy, caused massive wage deflation and unemployment. Worse? How exactly…?

Compare the stats on recovery after default and devaluation – even Argentina. The story is inconvenient for the € elite hence the lack of coverage. But after the negative J curve effect, Greece would get a chance to recover. At the moment, there is no chance.

Enjoy the ride, sorry to miss it. Hospital visit now 🙁

JY my comments about the elderly come from speaking to my friends who specialise in that type of care. Old people die in the winter* not sue to cold (and specifically fuel poverty) but due to things like respiratory illnesses etc. I’m sure DrJ can enlighten us further but it’s off topic really, I was just responding to ernie.

That is a fascinatingly long winded anecdote and interesting way to avoid addressing this claim and attempting to move the goalposts – you made no mention of age you just said this

Hot weather kills more people than cold,

Could you explicitly state whether you still agree with the factually incorrect statement that heat kills more people than cold ?
I imagine its easy to be right if you re-interpret what you said and ignore the evidence that its wrong. In essense none of us would ever be wrong if we ignored the facts.

He he! Classic Jamba!

Indeed it would be amusing if he was doing it for a reaction but i think he means it . It is very FRED like in posting style

Worse than austerity? A programme with no end and no solution that has devastated the economy, caused massive wage deflation and unemployment. Worse? How exactly…?

Compare the stats on recovery after default and devaluation – even Argentina. The story is inconvenient for the € elite hence the lack of coverage. But after the negative J curve effect, Greece would get a chance to recover. At the moment, there is no chance.
Find myself agreeing with THM on this thread

Looks like the Greek banking system is about to collapse. Not to worry though, looks like their saviour is about to ride into town….

What could possibly go wrong? 😀

Old people die in the winter not sue to cold (and specifically fuel poverty) but due to things like respiratory illnesses etc.

Old people die from the cold.

Hypothermia deaths double over five years

Hypothermia takes place when body temperature falls below 35C (95F) from its usual 37C (98.6F), with symptoms including violent shivering, confusion, delirium and unconsciousness.

The statistics, released by the NHS Information Centre, cover a period in which soaring energy bills have been pushing more and more pensioners into fuel poverty

What’s the matter with you jambalaya – why this constant need to rewrite the truth if it doesn’t fit in neatly with your agenda ? It’s just silly.

They should have jumped last year. All they have done is prolong the pain and stroke the egos of a few old men who are too stubborn to see that project euro is only as strong as its weakest members

Back to important matters… how much further will the euro slide against the pound?? How cheap will bike parts get from Europe??

*Scuttles off to price up 11 speed upgrades

Lots of people I know are looking at certain German online bike shops. New forks and groupset

Andy R – Member
mrhoppy – Member
Mostly so I can get home again. This holiday has felt a little like playing Russian Roulette.
Well, we’ve been here for six weeks and will be here for another five. If it wasn’t for the fact that I have work to do in the grim north I’d quite happily stay a hell of a lot longer than that.
Of course, it’s nothing like a holiday, seeing that we spend nearly half the year here (and will continue to do so)………
To be honest, the only things that I miss about my “other life” are a few people that are important to me (including a couple of riding mates, nobody around here rides what I like to).

But if you’re in the north in theory you can get out, I was on an island and if it all had gone tits up a couple of days earlier I’d be facing not being able to withdraw money potentially whilst the country is possibly going to shut down and the effects of that are uninsured under standard travel policies. There were already places charging mark ups for/not accepting card transactions.

Banks are shut, capital controls imposed

Banks are shut, capital controls imposed

It’s all over, then. They’ll be out of the Euro very soon.

It’s all over, then. They’ll be out of the Euro very soon.

No – the more likely outcome is that the referendum votes to give in to the blackmail, and the process continues.. The only way out is to vote OXI and exit the Euro, but it takes a lot of guts to do that, and people are weak.

It was always clear that the wounded lion would respond wih vengeful savagery, and now the Greek people will likely not keep hold of its tail.

Is that the mood on the streets ? I got the feeling that it wasn’t but that’s from stuff I’ve seen on TV.

No – the more likely outcome is that the referendum votes to give in to the blackmail, and the process continues.. The only way out is to vote OXI and exit the Euro, but it takes a lot of guts to do that, and people are weak.

Maybe so, but the referendum isn’t until the end of the week, and they’re out of money now

No – the more likely outcome is that the referendum votes to give in to the blackmail, and the process continues.. The only way out is to vote OXI and exit the Euro, but it takes a lot of guts to do that, and people are weak.

Yep, they don’t seem to have the guts / common sense to leave and the EU doesn’t seem to have the guts / common sense to just expel them. I can see this farce continuing till xmas and beyond….

and they’re out of money now

Not strictly true, the emergency liquidity funding is still in place, just not extended. With capital controls / strategic bank closures they can continue for some time.

The Greek people’s position is inherently contradictory. The majority of them want to remain in the Eurozone. But they also overwhelmingly reject the conditions that this places on them. They can’t have both. They want to have their cake and eat it. Living way beyond their means and expect everyone else to stump up for that, out of fear of the alternative – a Greek default.

Looks like it’s now make your mind up time. Choose one or the other. Christ only knows which way they’ll jump! Neither looks particularly appealing, I’d imagine.

It’s amazing to think that things have been allowed to reach this point. A damning indictment of the whole Eurozone project.

Is that the mood on the streets ?

Mood on the streets is Tsipras are somehow leading the opinion polls by 25 points, and yet there is talk of banks being closed until their 5th July referendum, a €60 withdrawal limit if the banks open at all next week. Greek stock market to remain closed. It’s going to be an interesting week.

Still, at least the headline writers are in for a treat: “Acropolypse Now!”
It almost writes itself.