It’s muscle mass/strength and aerobic capacity.

4th post I believe. That’s it end of discussion men will always be better than women at strength/endurance sports, that’s just the way it is.

I think the main factor is upper body strength & endurance, if you assume skills can be equally high then this is the biggest factor in the pro men being able to go really so much faster and be much more aggressive on the bike. Taking the Athertons again as an example, both Rach and Gee train, but Gee is obviously WAY stronger upper body. Perhaps there are some women out their who could get closer but they just never try it. I think I saw a quote from Rach saying that Gee can bench press three times as much as she can so why doesn’t he go three times faster… or something like that.

Does that mean that bigger riders tend to win DH? How tall are the current riders? Are there any small, skinny men who regularly win?

Interestingly no…Danny Hart appears to be quite small compared to the rest, but he’s a pretty normal 1.78m , the rest of them are all pretty big guys, over 2.00m and 85-90kg.

Surely the answer is testosterone? It is instrumental in building muscle mass. I know of men and women who train using heavy lifting and the guys are always bigger and stronger, despite starting from the same point.

Bit off the wall but I also know of a trans guy who was training before, started on T and suddenly he’s a muscle bound wall of human.. well not suddenly but certainly within a year. The only difference with him is he now takes testosterone as a supplement. Anabolic steroids were taken to increase T levels, were they not?

Nick – controversial here but Danny H is amazing on a bike, supreme handling skills etc… but how often does he win at world level? The Champery worlds was sheer handling of a bike down a river of mud and rain not the usual hauling down the mountain.

Sazter, he normally finishes in the top 10, and he was the most regular sized guy I could think off of the top of my head! The others are pretty big guys, Gee, Aaron, Troy, Greg, they’re all 2m plus.

How’s the Van coming along? 😀

Shame we cant ask one of them.

Their team probably have split times and other data.

Be interesting to know if its acceleration out of the gate, jumps, or rolling the rocks that’s slowing them down

Yep, he’s awesome, anyone who rides at the top level is! 🙂

Van is coming along nicely, have a full size bed and the start of the sofa and garage, working on it this weekend so update will follow, along with my very late blog update! 🙂

Seems daft to be debating a lot of this. There’s nothing wrong with accepting that:

On average, men are stronger.
On average, extreme sportsmen will be more ballsy, risky and pumped with adrenaline than women.
On average, the men will be more skilled as they have had to be more competitive to get where they are.

Also, why make active efforts to persuade more women to do our sport? There’s nothing stopping any girl who wants to do it.

Accept that DH suits men more than women because, mentally, we ARE different.

Totally agree with Sarah, no doubting testosterone has a lot to do with it.

Eh? Danny hart isn’t regular size. He’s short. Gwin is only 5’10 and Brosnan is shorter. None of the guys you mention are over 2m in height.

Sazter, he normally finishes in the top 10, and he was the most regular sized guy I could think off of the top of my head! The others are pretty big guys, Gee, Aaron, Troy, Greg, they’re all 2m plus.

???

Gee is just over 6′, Gwin is 5’10, Troy is 5’7, Greg is 6’3. Danny Hart is 5’10 too so he’s just average, neither tall nor short!

Danny must’ve had his height measured while stood on the podium with his stupid hat still on.

If I were short I’d probably lie too. 😉

So what? It’s strength to weight ratio that’s important, not height.

The weight of all the non-muscle stuff that is dead weight on a bike is roughly proportional to the square of height too, so taller riders have more inertia that inhibits change of direction. But more mass to help maintain speed. There’ll be a other factors too. But somewhere in the middle there’s a sweet spot. But that doesn’t mean the people on the extremes of height can’t be fast.

That’s got nothing to do with women though.

IdleJon – Member

Quite a few people on here talking about muscle mass and size of men v women. Does that mean that bigger riders tend to win DH? How tall are the current riders? Are there any small, skinny men who regularly win?

It’s not just the amount of muscle, men have proportionally more of it to start with, larger muscle fibres and greater bone density and as *I* stated, we have testosterone too. We’re generally a better design for killing ourselves or each other.

If you want more around the fact it is numbers then look at darts.

Female dart players do not equal the men but they are way better than they used to be (is this possibly because more women are now playing darts?) I would bet not as many woman play darts as men but it will be closer than the female/male DH MTB ratio.

No doubt someone will now tell me it is because men are supposed to throw pointy things while women stay home to clean stuff….

No doubt someone will now tell me it is because men are supposed to throw pointy things while women stay home to clean stuff….

No it’s because of the amount of testosterone washing around in the average pub darts team. 😆

to get the womens times to improve you really need a bigger talent pool ,someone like manon or rachael needs to be seen in more main stream media and then maybe the next rider who’s a little special may come to bikes rather than another sport,more competion and riders and standards will improve.i compete on motorcycle trials and while one or two have tried d/h (maria conway (will longdens wife) is one) not many have tried competing ,some could be very good .
with trials there are around six of the british girls who are very good and with more coming in the world champs every year.the level with the top girls is very high and i’m sure if they has pursued a career in downhill they would have done really well.at the minute the britsh girls dominate at world level and this in turn will up the level’s and bring usually more girls in to the sport.
our local trials often get 6 or 7 female riders,i’ve yet to see one at any of the local dh playgrounds , strength is a limiting factor but with a bigger talent pool times will get closer.

The idea that if you got more girls to ride you’d find one that was 20% faster than Rachel Atherton is utter nonsense.

over 2.00m

That’s over 6’6″. I doubt there are many pro DH guys that tall never mind most of them.

But would Rachel Atherton ride 20% faster if she’d had some really stiff competition since she started racing?

The strength in depth is a huge factor, look at the number of riders participating in Junior womens world championship downhill,

2013 – 5
2014 – 3
2015 – 9

There is simply nobody coming through who will put any pressure on the established elite riders. Unless the number of riders increases considerably its probably not worth running the category.

Interesting responses, I’ve enjoyed reading them all. I suppose I hadn’t considered the strength requirements properly, especially the upper body and was just thinking about the relative lack of pedalling and what % difference being stronger at that “bit” would have.

I think that to rubbish the idea of a larger pool of participants naturally leading to a raising of overall standards is a mistake. Someone mentioned football earlier on and it’s a relevant point. Without the, relatively, huge amount of people “trying it” you would be much more likely to have a lot of people who would be genuinely amazing at it never finding that out. Indeed many would probably end up just being full time **** instead of pro footballing ****. Which would be a shame (if you like that type of thing).

It’s an interesting position though. To say that Rachel Athertons is able to win the WC at say 95% risk/potential just raises further questions to me. Surely they’re aware of this? Surely Manon is aware of this? If you were sat on the start line thinking “right, if I just go as fast as I actually can, I’ll win because I know that no one else is properly maxing it” you would wouldn’t you? Wouldn’t the realisation of this also naturally push every women that wants to win to start upping their game and pushing harder out of their comfort zones? Or are we saying that Rachel can win at 95% and no one else is good enough to make her need to push any harder and we’re back to the size of the talent pool again?

Excellent points also raised about the course design that I hadn’t considered. That’s not right either is it? I mean how would you fancy being at the top of your class competing for a WC and having to ride a course that’s been designed in such a way that you can’t possibly make the gaps etc? Someone mentioned the golf tee position. It’s not undo able is it? A section that the men take and a section that the women take parallel to an “unmake able ” feature? Or would that be an insult or further hinder “development”. Having said that, if a 110 meter female hurdler turned up at the Olympics to find that the hurdles had been enlarged for the enjoyment of the crowd and to further challenge the men and she now couldn’t clear them she’d quite reasonably be a bit narked……….

Anyway, cheers for the comments and ideas – good stuff

I suspects its a whole set of factors. Different things causing problems at different parts of the race.

talent pool

Its a mixture of skill and physique. A bigger talent pool might turn up some one with Rachel’s talent but a bit heavier and stronger.

lower average mass and higher % body fat

That’s standard for all sport. But add in the bike. Rachel is 65kg and Gee. But a bigger % of Gee is muscle. Rachel’s bike is a bigger % of her body mass (I assume lighter frame but I bet her chain, derailleur and loads of other bits weigh the same). The bike weight and higher body fat % mean a much lower power to weight ratio. Less acceleration means less speed at the start and all accelerations

Aero dynamics

For quite alot of a run your stood up in pyjamas. Rachel’s drag will be less than Gee’s. But not by as much her lack of mass means less force down the hill. in short a much lower terminal speed. Much greater deceleration during a jump

Less strong

Less strong but pumping a bike that’s relatively heavier. So that’s got to be slower

Less efficient suspension. Unsprung mass % is greater for Rachel, seal stiction is a greater % of her weight

Googling it I can’t find any difference in bike weight for rachel and gee at all. Both 16-17kg

I made all that up, how did i do?

NB I’m not buying that Rachel would be much faster if some one was beating her. Maybe a bit

The idea that if you got more girls to ride you’d find one that was 20% faster than Rachel Atherton is utter nonsense.

Not entirely. The principle on rugby development in NZ for example is to keep the talent pool as big as possible for as long as possible. There’s a great article linked in the Rugby World Cup thread here. For a country of 4 Million people they churn out a phenomenal amount of top players (representing a lot of countries beyond NZ too!), many of whom didn’t make the first team at age grade rugby.

The idea that if you got more girls to ride you’d find one that was 20% faster than Rachel Atherton is utter nonsense.

Again I’m not sure. Just being 10 kg heavier and a bit taller could be a big chunk of that

You have to wonder what someone like Serena Williams would be doing if she’d grown up competing on two wheels rather than a tennis court.

My point about riding at 95% is really that 95% becomes the 100%. Whilst keep riding at 100% and it becomes 99% and you step up to a new 100%, and so on. It’s a gradual process which results from years of stiff competition.

chiefgrooveguru – Member

You have to wonder what someone like Serena Williams would be doing if she’d grown up competing on two wheels rather than a tennis court.

Or Ronda Rousey for that matter.

chiefgrooveguru – Member
You have to wonder what someone like Serena Williams would be doing if she’d grown up competing on two wheels rather than a tennis court.

Probably at the sharp end of whatever field, but still 11% or more behind the top men

It’s the numbers. Our best female road rider and current world cup champion Lizzie Armistead was discovered at a BC talent day which visited schools, prior to that she had no interest in cycling.

Far smaller pool of women involved in a sport means more chance the best theoretical talent is undiscovered (no offence intended to Rachel or Manon).

Extreme personal example; Munqe Chick won women’s cat of the local road club hill climb. She is a strong climber, but as the ONLY female entrant she could be crap and would still have the silverware, the kit voucher and the case of beer….

Or Ronda Rousey for that matter.

That’s an interesting one – I suspect her dominance of women’s MMA is more like Rachel Atherton’s of WC DH. There just aren’t that many women doing MMA compared to men, let alone full stop. But a lot of children try tennis (nothing like football but it’s still relatively accessible and teenage-girl-friendly) so the best tennis players are likely to be very very good.

chiefgrooveguru

That’s an interesting one – I suspect her dominance of women’s MMA is more like Rachel Atherton’s of WC DH. There just aren’t that many women doing MMA compared to men, let alone full stop. But a lot of children try tennis (nothing like football but it’s still relatively accessible and teenage-girl-friendly) so the best tennis players are likely to be very very good.

Yes and no. She was an Olympic silver medalist in Judo, one of the most popular participation sports in the world, so even in a populist sport she excelled. No arguing she’s not got much competition in MMA at the moment but I think she’d be at or near the top regardless. Her background closely mirrors most of the top men – ie. trained from a young age in a related discipline, competed at a world class level and makes the switch. None of her rivals have that.

I mention her because she’s clearly got aggression (lots) and a type of strength we’d normally associated with men.

Thing about most of the top women is that they all get where they are by learning and racing men, whether it be their brothers (Athertons, Tracy Mosely & Nicole Cooke) or father (Mannon). So I’m not sure a bigger pool of women riders would push them much further. A little possibly, but not enough to close the gap between top men and women significantly.

Yes and no. She was an Olympic silver medalist in Judo, one of the most popular participation sports in the world, so even in a populist sport she excelled.

Ah, I didn’t realise that! Totally agree on the strength and aggression thing. I think bobsleighers could be very good too – the olympic women are stronger than most male WC DHers (usually from a track & field professional background) and anyone brave enough to ride a bobsleigh has the ‘balls’ for DH. Skill is a different matter – how do you get 10,000 hours of real practice in if you don’t start young?

Dragon, they develop as a result of riding with their male family but they don’t actually race them formally. Rachel could bottle a jump her brother hit because there isn’t a medal hanging in the balance (unless she got injured trying it and she missed the next race).

Your argument works the other way- the best girls (a small, select group) may have benefited from having been pushed by stronger competition, just in these cases their brothers/fathers.

Is there any sport where male and female have equal performance levels? , as has been said I can only think of equestrian .

I wonder how many women have posted in this thread? Might be a bit telling that, too…