Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 116 total)
  • Why are female DH mtb peeps so much slower than the guys?
  • themilo
    Free Member

    Genuinely wonder why the disparity is so great on occasion. Clearly the top Ladies are considerably faster than your average male or female but just why are they significantly slower than the top guys? Can’t be a weight/gravity thing or the chunkier gents would win everything. Equally I would assume that strength would translate similarly. So what is it? Do the top guys just “go for it” more that’s the top women? One of the runs recently saw a near minute gap between Rachel athertons winning time and the winner of the male event over a 4 minute and 26 ish second time for the male top spot. Just can’t quite get my head around the size of the gap. There’s not a massive amount of pedalling but the guys are just obviously much faster from the off?

    chiefgrooveguru
    Full Member

    I think there just aren’t anywhere near enough female DHers for there to be the strength and depth of talent/ability/bravery/fitness amongst the women to compare with the men. I think the men are forced to ride beyond themselves much more often from a much younger age, or they won’t win, whilst a good young female DHer will win everything much more easily. I’m not saying they’re not bloody quick, or that they don’t try, they just don’t have to get in the habit of riding at 100% to win races because they can still win at 95%.

    I’d be interested to see how male and female downhill skiing times compare?

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Leave the gaps for a moment, some of the top men are truly on a different level.
    Results wise Rachel Atherton would have placed in the top 100 in all bar 1 rounds of the WC (other was 102)

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    6079smithw
    Free Member

    It’s muscle mass/strength and aerobic capacity.
    Out the gate, a man can sprint faster than a woman.
    When it comes to cornering, a man will be stronger which translates into more ability to carry corner speed, and for longer.

    Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce will never beat Usain Bolt, Serena Williams would never beat Andy Murray – that kinda thing.

    steveirwin
    Free Member

    Long hair, wide hips and boobs are hardly aerodynamic are they duh

    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    steveirwin

    Long hair, wide hips and boobs are hardly aerodynamic are they duh

    I’ll burn in hell tonight no doubt, but that comment made me have a good chuckle!

    Northwind
    Full Member

    6079smithw – Member

    Serena Williams would never beat Andy Murray

    Serena Williams could beat Andy Murray. Well, Andy Murray could beat Andy Murray while playing Serena Williams.

    Obviously there’s the physical, but this is also a massive numbers game. Boys are still more likely to get bikes as children and to ride them every day, still more likely to drag mum and dad down the park. This starts young, the pool of riders is just smaller

    And then later on, boys/young men are more likely to have the immediate support network- when I wanted to go riding, I had mates who were into bikes. That’s just statistically less likely, and so puts off even more, vicious cycles. Obviously girls can ride with boys, but all boys know talking to girls is gay so.

    (this continues to apply into adulthood but obviously isn’t as important for top end racing)

    Basically it’s easier for boys to drift into riding and find out they love it, and there’s less reasons they’re likely to drift or be pulled away. I could be wrong but I think there’s more often a family connection with female riders than males- that’s not backed up with numbers or anything, just my impression. Look at our top riders, you see bikey big brothers and bikey dads everywhere. Maybe that’s also true of dudes, maybe I just notice it less, I dunno…

    As mikewsmith says, the best female downhiller in the world is more or less a top 100 bloke, and there’s a handful of women who can match her. But how many more keen mountain biker boys are there than girls? How much more likely are they to stick at it? Just looked at a recent SDA, there were 18 times more guys than girls. (though, the girl’s youth turnout is much stronger, I think about 1/10. Maybe “the next Rachel” is more likely to stick at it than “the next Gee”? She’ll have an easier ride to the top in some ways, it might be more encouraging being one of 10 girls racing for a 3 strong podium, than one of 50 boys…)

    There’s a ton of things like this. Women are less likely to be engineers; in large part it’s because young girls are less likely to push hard at maths. By the time you start making life choices, it turns out, you’ve already made life choices. But also- girls are just plain less likely to choose that course once they get there. For completely obvious reasons…

    True fact though- female riders are more likely to be cool than male riders. Something about that sifting process, the female dickheads seem to be deterred, the male dickheads thrive.

    kerley
    Free Member

    Yep, just a numbers thing. Male would pretty much always beat female in physical sport in a top male versus top women scenario but add in the pool of people and it gets even more likely.
    In some sports that margin would be very small where female participation is large, pool of talent is therefore larger in other sports the margin would be large with DH MTB a good example.

    Just look around you when cycling. From my observation I would guess around 99+% of the ‘proper’ cyclists I see when riding around (and I see quite a lot where I live) are male.

    glasgowdan
    Free Member

    The sprinting thing shows how different dh is…top women are 10% slower than the men, top dh women are 20-25% slower?

    And long hair, wide hips and boobs? Can’t think of a single pro female downhiller with all 3!

    paulosoxo
    Free Member

    And long hair, wide hips and boobs? Can’t think of a single pro female downhiller with all 3!

    Long hair, wide hips, big boobs, pick any two, eh? 🙂

    panzerjager
    Free Member

    I think it’s more about the strength / physical make-up issue than the numbers, ie, girls don’t ride as much.
    While that may be true for the UK, it’s certainly not over here on the French Swiss border, where I work.
    The male to female ratio was much closer than I’ve ever seen at a UK event & at a recent MTB festival here in Basel, granted it had an XC bias, I was gob-smacked by the number of kids, teens & adults racing, as well as how seriously they took it. The amount of carbon frames, sidi shoes , spare wheel bags etc was mind-blowing, even for the youngsters.
    As Brits we certainly have more than our fair share of top riders at the mo, I’m sure if more of the girls I see over here, on our group rides as well as riding in groups of their own, decided to pursue it into later life, then the gap would surely close somewhat, but probably never all the way, for the reasons given above.

    tomhoward
    Full Member

    Leave the gaps for a moment, some of the top men are truly on a different level.

    A spirit level?

    br
    Free Member

    At the UK EWS this year T-Mo was top women but not in the top 100.

    It must be a fitness/strength/something-else issue rather than bravery, as Equestrian Cross-Country shows them competitive with men and that is a seriously mental sport.

    thestabiliser
    Free Member

    Their vaginas act as drogues.

    Not really. Mostly just a numbers thing, they’re might be a gap at the very top end due to relative physiques but with equal levels of participation i bet it’d be pretty marginal

    scaredypants
    Full Member

    Long hair, wide hips, big boobs, pick any two, eh?

    I think there ma be truth in that – I can’t see any other factor keeping me out of the WC rankings. If I grew my hair as well, would things get better or worse ?

    Rubber_Buccaneer
    Full Member

    I’m in the numbers camp. Forget for a moment the difference in time between men and women and look at the difference in time between 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. The gaps are far greater in the women’s competition which suggests to me there aren’t as many women competing to race at the top level.

    chiefgrooveguru
    Full Member

    It must be a fitness/strength/something-else issue rather than bravery, as Equestrian Cross-Country shows them competitive with men and that is a seriously mental sport.

    Look at the relative numbers of teenage boy and girls riding horses!

    wrecker
    Free Member

    Physical attributes, same as pretty much any other physical sport. I’d bet that a lot of the women are a skilled as the men, they just have different physiology.

    dragon
    Free Member

    It’s a fitness / strength thing. Take the Athertons they are one of, if not the fittest downhillers out there, but Gee has way more power and strength than Rachel and that makes a massive difference

    chiefgrooveguru
    Full Member

    If it was solely a fitness/strength thing the women would place better vs the jrs.

    jimjam
    Free Member

    b r – Member

    At the UK EWS this year T-Mo was top women but not in the top 100.

    Are you sure about that?

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    As with most things, there’s rarely 1 answer, it’s probably a combination of all of the above (well most of the above).

    I personally think the time differences are a bit skewed. The WC courses seem to suit the men. I’ve watched every WC this year, every man they show is clearing jumps and doubles with relative ease. It’s a fast smooth transition which costs them almost no time. When it comes to the Women they don’t seem to be able to do it, I don’t think it’s speed because they look just as fast, and it’s certainly not technique I can only assume it’s power either-they have to take a different line or take a slight case and it knocks all their speed. Manon tried to go for one of the big ones in Ft. William and it didn’t go well for her.

    So they flying around the bends, blasting through the rock gardens to my untrained eye pretty much on par with the lads, but then they’ve got to either brake and roll or case some of the bigger jumps and then wait until they’re back up to speed – I’ve guess on a track with smaller doubles they’d be much closer.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    @jimjam- she would have been 101st in men’s E1, I think 114th in the overall mens with the masters and youts included

    moonsaballoon
    Full Member

    Sponsors and levels of support at the top level must play a small part . I think it’s a shame that some of the biggest bike companies like specialized trek and Scott don’t sponsor a female downhiller

    wrecker
    Free Member

    If it was solely a fitness/strength thing the women would place better vs the jrs.

    I doubt it, an 18 year old male, particularly that active will have testosterone to burn. If it were skill levels then the women would be faster as they have been riding so much longer.

    rhid
    Full Member

    Trek do sponsor Female downhillers. Steffi Marth for example.

    I_did_dab
    Free Member

    Darwin must come into it. Men are basically expendable for the survival of the species and so generally better equipped physically and psychologically to do life-threatening activities.

    Stoner
    Free Member

    Rubber Buccaneer – I would say the numbers thing is the wrong place to look.

    There are two distributions, not one. A male one and a female one. Ignore the sample population for a moment. Each distribution will have a mean cluster and upper and lower tails.

    That the current best female is in the upper quartile/decile/percentile of the men’s distribution does not mean that if the sample of female riders increased dramatically that the standard deviation of the distribution of female rider times would widen sufficiently to bring substantial numbers of them into the fastest men times.

    I think for many of us we recognise that it’s usually lack of “balls”* that limits our own capabilities, but also we know when we are banging up against our physical limits (arm pump, lactic build, fighting against the G compression in the berm etc). And if we know that there are physical limits, then there are going to be unavoidable physiological performance differences between the sexes.

    * in the sense of stupid risk taking

    br
    Free Member

    Darwin must come into it. Men are basically expendable for the survival of the species and so generally better equipped physically and psychologically to do life-threatening activities.

    http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Anna%20Warnecke%20Burghley%20Horse%20Trials%20ZTAiEj2zYhXl.jpg

    tomhoward
    Full Member

    think there ma be truth in that – I can’t see any other factor keeping me out of the WC rankings. If I grew my hair as well, would things get better or worse ?

    Ratboy would have won the world champs last year if only he’d shaved his head.

    Rubber_Buccaneer
    Full Member

    Stoner I agree the men will always be faster for physical and ‘balls’ reasons. I’m just suggesting that there so few women participating at every level that your stats don’t mean much.

    sharkattack
    Full Member

    I’d bet that a lot of the women are a skilled as the men

    I would disagree

    I think it’s a shame that some of the biggest bike companies like specialized trek and Scott don’t sponsor a female downhiller

    Where would they find them? I don’t think there’s any barrier but the up and coming riders aren’t there. Every manufacturer in the world would be falling over themselves to sign the DH equivalent of Emily Batty. Then Porsche would throw a car at her.

    Men are basically expendable for the survival of the species and so generally better equipped physically and psychologically to do life-threatening activities.

    This^ Men spend their whole lives arsing around with toys and vehicles or musical instruments. Some of them will get really, very good at it and someone has to be on top.

    As for the numbers argument, when I ride with my girlfriend (now my main riding partner) it’s a 50/50 split male and female. But, I can wheelie and skid and bunnyhop and hit all the drops and jumps and she can’t. It’s because I wasted my youth riding bikes every day and she’s the one with the proper job.

    You just don’t see girls ‘playing’ on bikes which is what it takes to get really good at it. For the fastest girls in the world it’s a sport and it only takes place on a race track. For the men it’s a lifetime of BMX and motorcross and dirt jumping and macho one-upmanship. That’s what puts the blokes on another level. They’re putting their life on the line to win a bike race.

    Stoner
    Free Member

    you could say the sample size is small. And yes, increasing the sample size will nudge more female results into the upper x-ile of the men’s results, but small sample size will never explain the differences in the distributions, only the reasons for a narrow/wide/skewed shape in the female distribution,

    wrecker
    Free Member

    I would disagree

    Fair enough, but I’d be interested in how/why. As far as I know there is little correlation between your sex and you ability to command your body to do different things/co-ordination (body awareness).

    You just don’t see girls ‘playing’ on bikes which is what it takes to get really good at it.

    Rachael Atherton?

    sharkattack
    Full Member

    Fair enough, but I’d be interested in how/why.

    Did you not read the rest of my post? The young women aren’t there at the dirt jumps or the MX track or digging gnarly trails in the woods and trying to beat their mates down them with nothing at stake but bragging rights.

    Rachael Atherton?

    The only properly fast woman on a bike in the entire world? Who, if she did a carbon copy of her worlds run but, as a man, you wouldn’t even know his name.

    I’m only cogitating, I’m not a scientist.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    Who, if she did a carbon copy of her worlds run but, as a man, you wouldn’t even know his name.

    That’s kind of what I’m getting at. She has been riding her bike on the same stuff that her brothers have, for a similar amount of time but she’s still a lot slower. Is it that she has less skill take up because she’s female or she’s at a disadvantage because as a female her strength will never match Gee or Dans or because she’s mentally programmed not to take as many risks?
    I very much doubt it’s the first one personally but, same as you I’m no expert.

    dragon
    Free Member

    You just don’t see girls ‘playing’ on bikes which is what it takes to get really good at it.

    Apart from the fact that some of the top women did exactly that e.g. Anne-Caroline Chausson or Manon Carpenter. Yet they are still a way off the top men’s performance.

    I think the point about course design is interesting as the jumps etc are all setup for men, and women really struggle to do the bigger ones. Which I assume is a strength, power and weight thing, as this problem is also similar in snow boarding and the like.

    teasel
    Free Member

    Their vaginas act as drogues.

    If I had a mouthful of coffee it would’ve been ejected with force.

    sharkattack
    Full Member

    I think it’s just a different mentality. For the women it’s a sport and they’ll train (pedal a road or XC bike) and hit the gym and get super fit but for men it’s a lifestyle. And having mad skills and better ability on your bike equals status. There’s loads of well known male riders who don’t race world cups. We like having them around because they go huge and look amazing.

    I don’t know if you follow any riders on Instagram but with the men it’s none stop. It’s day in day out riding. Riding with your mates means arsing around. Jumps and drops and ‘style’. You just never see the women having any fun on their bikes.

    I’ll digress a bit here because I didn’t spend my youth racing downhill,

    I used to ride street on a BMX with some of the best riders in the country (I don’t include myself in that statement) and we used to travel all over the country and sleep on floors and eat burgers and chips and be total dirtbags. We used to go above and beyond to find spots so you’d explore the darkest, dirtiest areas of urban decay and them some idiot would throw themselves off a roof or down a handrail, in the middle of nowhere on a carpet of broken glass.

    I’ve seen horrific injuries. Because people are obsessed with nailing a trick or a line that only a handful of people will ever know about and they’ll put their health on the line to do it. And guess what, we had no female participants in our crew.

    I’m not saying women couldn’t learn this stuff. But it’s dumb and typically male and superfluous to results.

    larkim
    Free Member

    In athletics, the rule of thumb is that female performance for an equally talented and fit athlete would be 11% slower than the equivalent male runner.

    I suppose in pure “power” terms, a female runner is going both slower and has less mass, so her running “power”output would be even lower than 11% deficit (perhaps assume 20% – 11% slower and 10% lighter?)

    At the top of a DH track, a woman clearly has less “potential energy” if her mass is less than that of a male rider, so even if she rolled it down with zero pedalling, she’d be slower (assuming identical lines taken etc). Add that to the fact that the power output should follow the model above, and I think you’ve got the answer.

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