“the church has a problem”???? The systematic covering up of the physical, mental and sexual abuse is more than “a problem” it’s a **** disaster.

I know people who went through all of these things, and all they were told is, “they’ll go to hell” etc. The Catholic church, up to, and including, the **** POPE, were complicate in covering these things up.

You really wonder why people are offended by the church, when so many people have had there life’s ruined in the name of God.

I could indeed tell you more about these but you’d still be here making the same point in a few week’s time.

@deadlydarcy, No I wouldn’t be, because I believe your example completely, and must acknowledge that what you say happened. When I was madly trying to hammer my thoughts out before, I was thinking in contemporary terms, and completely forgot the particular historical reality.

It is indeed true that hellfire and damnation has been used from the pulpit – and continues to be by some groups. But as any serious, academic theologian knows, concepts of the afterlife in Christianity are much more nuanced than the heaven-hell dichotomy can possibly express. Likewise the idea of judgement. A colleague of mine does an immense amount of work on the concept of universal apocatastasis as it emerges in Christian Neo-Platonism, and has found very receptive ground among theologians of a number of Christian traditions. Basically, he might say, there is an idea of judgement, but that judgement is of evil itself which is the purged away, making possible the universal embrace of humanity.

You might think such ideas nonsense – which is fine – but people should at least be aware that the days of talking in terms of fear should be, and are being, eradicated.

In the meantime, I would add that even on the ground (that is, outside of academic theological circles) many, many priests (and ministers of other churches) would never consider using judgemental and fear-based language, as it simply has no place in the church. At the same time, they are as disgusted by things that have been said and done in the past as anyone else.

In any case, I am trying to be reasonable, so please don’t suggest I will hold to some untenable position regardless of what you, or anyone else, says.

You really wonder why people are offended by the church, when so many people have had there life’s ruined in the name of God.

No, I don’t wonder at all. It is entirely understandable and reasonable.

The systematic covering up of the physical, mental and sexual abuse is more than “a problem” it’s a **** disaster.

I agree. Sorry if the word I used wasn’t strong enough. I would call it diabolical, evil, perverse, reprehensible… You name it, really. It was all of those things. And where it continues, it needs to be rooted out and punished.

…just because something bad happened in the context of a church does not mean it happened because of the church…

But when something bad happens, the way that the Church deals with it is important.

In any reputable organisation, it is compulsory to report child abuse to the authorities. In this case the Church have quickly shunted the priest into retirement, and the news report quotes the Bishop as saying the priest “…had been guilty of a loss of coolness that can be explained but not excused.” and “The baby’s parents accepted the priest’s apology”.

So yet again, the Church fails to take child protection seriously, and appears more interested in damage limitation to protect itself.

It’s no wonder that it’s so hard to have a decent, coherent discussion about religion on here.

Probably because its a bike forum.

Doesn’t the MTB Bible say ‘for behold the way is single and the track is narrow’ or something like that?

Ah, so that’s why Saxon has 8 kids

Me in a handcart

All I can say it what I said on the other thread… Christenings?!

Anyone want to post a video of an Imam slapping a baby, just to even things up?

Religions protect their officials and officiators against the ‘outside world’ where paedophiles,  baby batterers and criminal snake-oil salesmen have no option but to face the consequences of their actions.

The pity of it is that the ‘outside world’ colludes in this disgusting protectionism because it cannot let go of the myth that there is something ‘special’ about these organisations, that affords them different treatment.

These gobbledygook peddlers should be made subject to secular law in the same way as everybody else and prosecutions should obtain against those who try to help them evade punishment.

Mr Woppit, other than the gobbledygook comment, I largely agree with the rest of what you say.

No criminal or evildoer in any organisation should be sheltered or be outside the law, and the Church, to its shame, has been guilty of this far, far too often.

It is indeed true that hellfire and damnation has been used from the pulpit – and continues to be by some groups. But as any serious, academic theologian knows, concepts of the afterlife in Christianity are much more nuanced than the heaven-hell dichotomy can possibly express. Likewise the idea of judgement. A colleague of mine does an immense amount of work on the concept of universal apocatastasis as it emerges in Christian Neo-Platonism, and has found very receptive ground among theologians of a number of Christian traditions. Basically, he might say, there is an idea of judgement, but that judgement is of evil itself which is the purged away, making possible the universal embrace of humanity.

Not to sound shitty about this but it’s an example where the academics are off in a corner arguing about the inference in the way the word “the” was used while the rest of the employees continue to scream their message.

And here is what the bosses thought was right to send to school kids

https://www.sydneycatholic.org/pdf/dmm-booklet_web.pdf

https://www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/people-are-mad-about-this-anti-marriage-equality-leaflet-bei?utm_term=.hoJ7B6mL6#.apJ4leL0e

That is the polite stuff they came out with that time

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/aug/15/melbourne-archbishop-says-hed-rather-go-to-jail-than-report-child-abuse-heard-in-confession

From the highest level they are broken.