Warning!! old school moan about the Olympic Xc

To my mind I think a big part of it all comes down to boring old Money and what sells, and I don’t think XC sells like other forms of cycling….

I think the thing that has helped other forms of cycling in recent years has been getting the commercial aspect ‘right’….

Setting aside the sniping between niches I think British success in recent years in DH has to do primarily with the nature of the sport; DH has a strong commercial/sponsorship element and far less involvement/interest from national/governing bodies its much more “Team before Country” to bastardize a footballing cliche….

In a similar way BC’s current road/track success is certainly built in good part around having a very beneficial sponsorship/collaboration with Sky that traditional distinction between a riders commercial sponsorship/Team and National body has been broken down to allow riders to work towards whatever goals/program works best for them… And it is working.

While XC lacks either the same Road/track joined up commercial/national model (or worse yet, any young XC prospects are just poached for Road/track) or the same level of commercial interest that DH attracts (because it basically is a ‘sexier’ more youth oriented sport, and hence more attractive to sponsors than XC) I can’t see British XC closing the gap on other nations…

Humour should be funny, in case you didn’t know.

And you are? How unintentionally amusing.

it’s quite amusing this thread

a few comments from the slightly grubby grass roots

XC racing is different from the road race/ CX scene as road races/CX are run by clubs or regional associations with decent infrastructures, a culture of volunteering time and are not run by professionals earning a living from it.

XC racing is dominated by series run by companies for profit. There are a few notable club run series but there is no strength in depth. The commercial organiser looks at the racing differently and frequently cancels events leaving gaps in an already sparse calendar.

but being commercial brings other issues, everyone wants their cut, volunteer run organisations have the subtle power of getting everyone to muck in because it’s the right thing to do.

XC racing needs venues, these are the hardest thing to find and develop, however organistions FC, LA’s are finging cash to create trails on the land they own. They love working with the “community” (that will be volunteers again.) so if you have an idea go and talk to them. We were talking to LCC about racing before Lee Quarry opened.

On the whole the mtb orientated media (print and web) have disowned XC racing. The 2012 Welsh XC series dissappeared after 2 cancelled races, no reportage on that anywhere. Nothing on who’s who, and race reporting which essentially an organisers own report (if you are lucky enough to get anything published, although the two pages we managed in 2009 in MBUK still stand out)

As for British Cycling, I’m sure they do a lot. But if you want them to make it happen you are living in cloud cuckoo land. The structure is good, there are some very helpful people and plenty who aren’t

2012 XC racing finished….

not likely two races left 2nd Sept and 14th Oct

…and no you will not be pushing through the mud

what’s it like?

see what Pete from Orange thought about it http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/news/view/Round_2_Brownbacks_Hope_XC

video here (with lots of mincing, shame they don’t take up the free coaching offer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2RO9ThOX4k

easy racing XC? ask a series winner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG5I1QL_brw&feature=related

plenty of videolets here
http://www.youtube.com/user/BrownbacksRacing?feature=watch

mrmo – Member

GW serious question, novice level is it reasonable to do well, win without spending money? beyond the obvious helmet, etc.depends what category you are racing and which race series. (there isn’t really a true “novice level” even in local DH races tho.
over the years I’ve witnessed an Elite, a Junior and a v.fast master rider all manage to come second on a hardtail at national level (SCU/WCA).

From where i sit i see the entry equipment hurdle being pretty high. i don’t see many on cheap hard tails, I know back in the day steve peat was winning on a hard tail but that was then not now, just looking at the coverage etc it suggests Full suspension bikes, lots of pads etc.

Yes. these days the standard is so high it would be very difficult to come anywhare close to a win on a hardtail against top end DH bikes even in local races, that said, if you had the talent you could win on 3 or 4 yr old a S/H DH bike you bought for £500-700.

The most expensive part of DH racing is the fuel/entry costs, depending on location each race can easily cost you around £200 for the weekend all in.

if Xc racing has a bad image, then it’s up to Xc racers to change it, if they want to…

Yep, and as this thread shows, they don’t want to. In five years, the XC National Champs will just be three angry people wobbling around Thetford….

xc bridlewaybiking is brown bread. suck it up.

Only read the first two pages, but can’t help feeling some of the miserable, bitter, divisive moaning and sniping from some of those who apparently love XC racing might not be the best way to encourage people to get into it. In fact people with those attitudes may well be a big part of the problem.

Pretty sad TBH.

Not sure what you mean by that?
XC is alive and well for those that want to do it.
XC racers I know love XC racing as it is.
Clubs and individuals like myself are doing their best to find venues and encourage more people into it.

The problem is that there is a lot of hostility within the mountain biking fraternity towards XC simply because they don’t like it. Their answer is to change it or simply don’t do it.
Now just look at that. Here I am, I love XC. And what I understand is that they want me to spend my time changing the sport to suit them and turn it into something I don’t want to do. I know how TJ felt now.

So guys those that want to see changes and still contribute to greater success in the future as that’s what this thread is about. What are you doing about it, I mean what is you actual contribution apart from moaning and going on and on about what mincers myself and all the XC guys and girls are?

And grum also on that note, If I’m taking out new riders that want to get into XC I never ever in anyway put down any other form of off road riding. In fact if doing other stuff improves their race skills then I’ll encourage them to do it. I often point guys towards Tony at Woburn.

XC racing needs venues, these are the hardest thing to find and develop, however organistions FC, LA’s are finging cash to create trails on the land they own. They love working with the “community” (that will be volunteers again.) so if you have an idea go and talk to them. We were talking to LCC about racing before Lee Quarry opened.

This is what I’m doing at the moment. We have got a yes on a venue, but it is totally flat. There is woodland on the site and remnants of an old MX course. I need to look at it again. I met there with British Cycling and other club reps and they gave it the go ahead.
However its pretty grass roots – cheap midweek series?

MTB XC is the poor relation everywhere not just here. There’s no big money sponsorship in it so the racers aren’t paid well so where’s the attraction when at the very top level you likely have a chance of making it on the road instead? I’m sure Absalon and a few others make a decent enough living from it but very few do.
In this country we’d need BC to take it seriously and fund it properly to start developing the depth of talent needed and they have enough proven cycling disciplines already to invest the cash they have. Funding XC would be a 5-10 year project before they got serious payback and even then you’re talking 2 gold medals at most (and national funding is all about medal payback).

oldgit – Member
So you don’t like XC kimbers.
I assume that’s Danny hart, haven’t a clue who the girl is?
Each to their own, I;ve never seen a downhill race, I have seen snippets.
You have to get into the head of some racers. To me rolling downhill has no value whilst hurting myself going uphill gives me a buzz.

granted i dont think watching xcraces is very exciting and i much prefer racing, dh,enduro, mega type stuff to xc racing (im equally bad at all of them )
but xc riding is the most accessible to most people and i love a good xc blast

my point was that DH is more expensive for the bike, kit and uplift, harder to get to venues- fuel is crazy

and yet the uk has been churning out world class dhers for pretty much since the golden era of xc racers mentioned at the start

dh has sustained that level while xc has dwindled

perhaps xc needs to emulate dh more, i suppose that needs mag coverage, sponsors and youd want to do something to get youngsters hooked- work with schools, youth groups, scouts etc, unis seem to have good xc clubs? and maybe just maybe …………ban lycra (runs and hides behind wall)

Kimbers, i understand what your saying but this is the crucial point.

If we are trying to get good world class XC racers then what is the point in trying to create something that no other country recognises as XC?

Would a good Enduro/DH racer win an XC olympic medal?

Yes play with the XC format, but at the end of the day XC is what it is and if you want to get world class riders you have to have them used to racing on XC courses.

and maybe just maybe …………ban lycra (runs and hides behind wall)

lycra is fine, just ban technical and feed zones, that will get rid of the skinsuits

allowing outside support is if us completely against the ethos of xc mtbing, it should be no outside help, no cashing of bottles, no spare wheels etc

all the “we’ll get dehydrated” bluff is simply answered by pointing out that you can get 3 litres in a hydration system

it’s also a barrier to some as it assists those with deep pockets and family/ friends against the lone privateer

This is what I’m doing at the moment. We have got a yes on a venue, but it is totally flat. There is woodland on the site and remnants of an old MX course.

sounds like it will be a great place for a small local series focusing getting people racing

I need to look at it again. I met there with British Cycling and other club reps and they gave it the go ahead.
However its pretty grass roots – cheap midweek series?

why do you need their permission? BC have no say-so as long as you run to their rules if being insured by them. Regional committees should be coordinating/ advising not giving the “go-ahead”

walleater – Member

and as this thread shows, they don’t want to. In five years, the XC National Champs will just be three angry people wobbling around Thetford….

we’ll still be running then 😉

Not sure what you mean by that?

What I mean is, that it’s probably counter productive to be moaning on about how XC racing is the only form of ‘proper’ mountain biking, and if you’re not into it it’s because you’re a lazy, pathetic follower of marketing hype.

The kind of ‘you stupid kids with all your freeride rubbish, and you fat losers with your 6 inch travel bikes, what’s wrong with you’ attitude espoused by some in this thread isn’t likely to endear people to XC racing.

What are you doing about it, I mean what is you actual contribution apart from moaning and going on and on about what mincers myself and all the XC guys and girls are?

I’m doing nothing, because it’s not really my thing – I have done a few enduro type races but XC racing doesn’t really appeal. And yes it’s partly because I’m not fit enough (and I don’t particularly like riding skinny tired bikes with the saddle right up my arse) – I don’t see why I should be vilified for that. Although lots of the comments seem to be from people who I’m assuming have never ridden DH given their ignorance about how physically demanding it can be.

I also don’t think I’ve ever called XC guys mincers – I’ve ridden with a few people who’ve competed in XC at a decent level and they all had superb technical skills. I do think it’s massively lame to see people n XC races walking technical sections though.

walleater – Member
and as this thread shows, they don’t want to. In five years, the XC National Champs will just be three angry people wobbling around Thetford….

we’ll still be going then 😉

so that’s 130 people racing on big berms, table tops, doubles, drops, down great singletrack and up tough climbs then, and no angry people (we ask angry people to lighten up or not to come back)

anyone who thinks you needa ton of money to buy a bike to race xc and be competitive is so wrong…

My current bike, which I race, and can get into the top ten of the local series in vets… is a 96 kona hei hei, ok in 96 it was a £1000 frame but the bike cost me less than £600 to put together (incl frame, sid world cups, m952 xtr groupset) it weighs less than some of the bikes being raced at hadleigh, and is fun to ride too… If I hadnt of wanted the frame so much I could prob have knocked another £100 £150 off the cost.

Its very apparent that watching the crowds over the weekend that xc racing is considerably more popular in europe and the US than the UK – you only had to see the 2 trainloads of Gunn Rita Dahl fans to realise that.. If the Olympics were in france I doubt many of us would have actually bothered to go see annie and liam race at all…

Ive been xc racing since the mid 90s, its heyday I guessm foot and mouth put a stop to is around 2000 and after that it never really recovered. A lot of places dont actually exist anymore, venues like Rats closed down I think due to costs and some places dont get used due to the local clubs not existing anymore…

Whereas I used to be able to race virtually every weekend with an hour or sos driving, Ive now got to drive for anyithng up to 4 hours and am lucky if I can find 2 races a month…

I always struggle to understand XC as a sport, and I mainly ride XC. But I ride it the way I did as a child – I’m pretending I’ve got a dirt bike, but lacking an engine I’ll use gravity. If up-then-down speed was the aim then a CX bike is going to be faster, but I endure the climbs in order to rag the descents. Designing a race *lap* where a mountain bike will be a faster option than a CX bike must be tricky.

(Gravity?) Enduro (as I’ve heard it explained) probably best represents the pass-time of “climbing to descend”, and really makes the “mountain bike” distinct from a “CX bike with 90mm travel in the fork” – possibly it’s the way to go to represent non-DH mountain biking as a sport?

I reckon as some have said that the clubs thing is the key. We just don’t have a culture of MTB clubs that race and organise races. I think mountain biking in this country has a different ethos that’s less about competing (I guess you can see that as negative if you think competing is important). In France the clubs seem to cater for VTT and road and the two are much more closely linked together and organise races in both.

So if you want you could have a moan at road clubs for not doing enough mountain biking. 😉

I think if you want XC to be more popular it needs to move closer to the riding that a lot of MTBers do. Hadleigh Farm is halfway there with the short lap and a lot of the course visible for spectators. The UCI XCE format is close-ish too but the crap courses and single ‘lap’ didn’t quite hit the mark.

How about –

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre ‘black’ or harder – similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

Proper multiple lines on the tech sections (of equal difficulty) to allow for ‘fun’ overtaking.

No tech or feeding areas – riders need to be totally self-sufficient for the duration of the race. A serious mechanical means your ride is over like in the real world (unless you can bodge it with gaffer and zip ties).

Single lap time-trial style qualification for ‘grid’ places before a more traditional ‘endurance’ style main race.

Sort of a mash-up of XC, BMX and 4X with the focus more equally on skill and fitness (current XC focuses on the latter?)?

slainte ❓ rob

What I mean is, that it’s probably counter productive to be moaning on about how XC racing is the only form of ‘proper’ mountain biking, and if you’re not into it it’s because you’re a lazy, pathetic follower of marketing hype.

XC racing needs all the marketing hype it can get, the problem is how to do it.
There is no point to dissing other forms of the sport, we should be looking to mutually support each other

The kind of ‘you stupid kids with all your freeride rubbish, and you fat losers with your 6 inch travel bikes, what’s wrong with you’ attitude espoused by some in this thread isn’t likely to endear people to XC racing.

we love getting the “stupid kids” and “you fat losers with your 6 inch travel bikes”, they generally love racing the downhills in an XC context (ie against others rather than the time trail that is DH) and we constantly get stories about the rider battles for places, swapping on the climbs/ descents

XC racing is about riding your bike as hard as you can for 90 mins and having a laugh doing it. Anyone who thinks differently needs a reality check.

Brownbacks – good to hear and I have been tempted to enter one of your events as I’ve heard positive things. When I live a bit closer (moving quite near in the next 6 months hopefully) I’d probably be up for some marshalling too.

Designing a race *lap* where a mountain bike will be a faster option than a CX bike must be tricky

errr, no it’s not if you have a good venue

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre ‘black’ or harder – similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

nothing to stop you doing this now, the rules state the course must be 100% “rideable”.

I think your format may be a bit “elite” for most however

as I’ve heard positive things.

it’s all lies and propaganda 😉

I’d probably be up for some marshalling too.

we love our marshals to bits! and you get a free Buff! and other stuff etc etc 😀

Brownbacks – Member
I think your format may be a bit “elite” for most however

For grassroots the courses might need tailoring a bit yes. To be honest I was thinking more about the top end of the sport to get people interested as spectators.

I think though, for most people who might want to race at grassroots level, a pretty much ‘Red’ graded course would be raceable?

slainte ❓ rob

colournoise – Member

How about –

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre ‘black’ or harder – similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

Proper multiple lines on the tech sections (of equal difficulty) to allow for ‘fun’ overtaking.

No tech or feeding areas – riders need to be totally self-sufficient for the duration of the race. A serious mechanical means your ride is over like in the real world (unless you can bodge it with gaffer and zip ties).

Sort of a mash-up of XC, BMX and 4X with the focus more equally on skill and fitness (current XC focuses on the latter?)?

slainte rob

i’ve done a race a bit like that – it was ace!

although we swapped this

Single lap time-trial style qualification for ‘grid’ places before a more traditional ‘endurance’ style main race.

for a le-mans start with a bit of good natured pushing and shoving…

2k per lap, race for an hour, most laps wins.

(i confess that the lap was more ‘easy red’, than ‘black or harder’ – still great fun though)

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre ‘black’ or harder – similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

How does that help new-comers to the sport? It might be ok for those who have been riding a while but? Also the point about built, who is going to do the building? and who is paying?

There is no point to dissing other forms of the sport, we should be looking to mutually support each other

Well said, thank God someone has finally come out and said that after 6 pages of different sub niches of a niche within a niche sport slagging each other off!

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre ‘black’ or harder – similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

Bloody hell, where are you lot riding?! There’s been this pervading sense on this thread and the Olympic MTB one that the Olympic course “isn’t hard enough” and “looks boring” (I can guarantee you that it’s plenty tough enough!).
But everyone on here seems to be riding in some kind of Escher drawing of constant descents with gap jumps, berms and 4ft drop offs! I’d love to know where it is cos even in my local riding of the Peak District, I have to do gravel tracks and uphills and flat grass trails from time to time!

Bottom line is, if something isn’t technical, you’re not riding it fast enough!

Seems people just want an enduro event then?? Its like saying the road race should have a cafe stop half way so we can all relate.

I’ve seen a lot of races and think XC is more exciting to watch than DH.

A few tough spots on the course, race is long enough for you to catch a couple of vantage points. The Dalby world cup was great for this. (i rarely see 6″ dropper post bikes doing worry gill or medusas drop.)

I really don’t think there is a need for XC to change just to please Weekend Trail centre warriors.

Seems people just want an enduro event then?? Its like saying the road race should have a cafe stop half way so we can all relate.

How is it like that? You think an enduro is ‘easy’? Go win one then. More lame sniping, as is this:

Weekend Trail centre warriors.

and this for that matter:

i rarely see 6″ dropper post bikes doing worry gill or medusas drop

If you don’t think XC needs to change then that’s fine, but do you have to be an arse about it?

I’ve seen a lot of races and think XC is more exciting to watch than DH.

I don’t, sorry.

I really don’t think there is a need for XC to change just to please Weekend Trail centre warriors.

maybe not but it needs to change to become accessible, friendly, and the natural starting point for people/ kids with an urge to compete off road on a bike

but do you have to be an arse about it?

Not being an arse about it, just my opinion sorry.

How is it like that? More lame sniping, as is this

Not lame sniping, just picking up on comments like:

A short (5km) course built a bit like a UK trail centre ‘black’ or harder – similar to Hadleigh Farm but with more tech sections including proper DH/4X style jumps and drops. Needs to be tough enough to make FS and dropper posts a reasonable weight-to-speed gamble.

Which IMHO is an Enduro event. Which would be great to have top level televised events like this, but don’t think XC should be changed into this, just push enduro more.

Technical is great is your fresh but even the riders yesterday started to look a bit sketchy by the last lap. And they’d had plenty of time to practise it.

I regularly do the Gorricks. By the last lap I’ll have been pushing my self hard for over an hour, I’m knacked and my arms are starting to shake, stuff which I would nt even have noticed on a ride with mates (ie with rest breaks) starts to look technical.

I would nt fancy any proper jumps and drops myself not like the riders were taking yesterday I’d just be too knackered to ride them.

Also although chicken lines were available it would be interesting to see if on the first lap whether people would actually have a choice or whether they’ve just be forced down which ever due to the mass of the crowd (certainly looked that way yesterday).

Also I tend not to bother with practise laps simply isnt time, ie drive to event 30 mins, prep 15 mins, 1:30 hour race, clean up 15 mins, drive home 30 mins. Thats plenty enough time to spend racing for me.

I’ve also done one downhill race. They was one proper jump in this race, which was fine, but I’d had all the previous day to practise it and I’d also managed a couple of practise runs in the morning.

A XC race just isnt like that riders will turn up and have no idea what the course is like.

maybe not but it needs to change to become accessible, friendly, and the natural starting point for people/ kids with an urge to compete off road on a bike

Yes I think that’s down to event organisation more than the course. A couple of tough sections with Hard, moderate and easy runs, with a risk/reward set-up.

Which IMHO is an Enduro event

nah – ’cause you’d still be racing on the climbs.

Not being an arse about it, just my opinion sorry.

Whilst demeaning other people who have a diffent opinion to you. Again, hardly an attitude likely to endear people to your sport.

What scu98rkr said ^^.

Technical is fine but you start to get into situations where riders bottle it, bail, cause a crash or make mistakes cos they’re tired. Also you’re effectively cutting out the grass-roots element, the newcomers who may not yet have the Elite bike handling skills that everyone on STW so obviously has. I like technical, it’s great but “technical” does not necessarily mean 4ft drop offs and insane descents.

I used to help organise the Beastway MTB Series in London and that used a 3 mile lap (different each week) and we used to get “technical” out of a flattish piece of essentially wasteland. Tight turns, blind corners, short steep ups and downs. All inclusive, anyone could ride it but just at varying speeds.