2 or 3 mins – typically.

closer to 4 or 5mins for longer course/slower riders.

in attempt to nicen things up a little… are there many people still reading this who are involved with organising Xc races?

do you want more people to come to races?

or is there something else you’d like to change?

or, is everything just peachy, and you don’t know what all this fuss is about?

i’m only asking because i’m curious…

ok hands up who ridden

an xc race

and a dh race?

i have
the xc was fun but it was hard, i puked after my first one -it was at thetford so quite flat

my first dh race was at aston was also fun, knackering in a different way

i finished way down the back at both of them

overall i prefer the dh race, the atmosphere was generally friendly and jokier, i was quite surprised how aggressive people were at the start of the xc race

of all formats i like enduro because it combines aspects of both and is definately more social

why dont we do a race half DH half XC, with Njee and GW.

molgrips and awhiles can be the support teams.

Bikes can be swaped at halfway.

What about 1 DH run at Cwmcarn followed by 1 lap of the XC course ?

A typical DH race run is 2-5 minutes. But I wasn’t talking about DH practice or DH race runs

ok hands up who ridden
an xc race
and a dh race?

I have although only 1 DH, my rankings are much better at XC and I enjoyed the XC more.

The DH course was very short so it wasnt tiring for me. But it was difficult I got beat up alot in practise the morning/day before plenty of cuts and bruises.

The DH is very very mental and I was very nervous on the start ramp. I was sure the crowd wanted 1 of 2 things.

1.Either a massive jump with loads of style off the start ramp
2.The rider (me) to crash

I compare XC to playing outfield in Football and DH to playing in goal for 11 a side (something else I’ve done and very nerve wreaking too no wonder all GKeepers are mental).

I’ve always found the atmosphere to be better at XC at DH, but that might be how I view the events. I always feel people are pushing you to do things you might not be comfortable with at DH. Things you might seriously hurt yourself at and their dissapointed if you dont try (a crash obviously gets a cheer buts that just stupid if you ask me). Where as at XC people are always cheering you on which is cool and makes me go faster 🙂

I won’t be racing DH or XC. Especially at Cwncarn 😉

Its on Singletrack its official now 🙂 you cant back out !

There’s an awful lot of rubbish being spouted on this thread by posters who have clearly never done an xc race

I’ve been lucky enough to ride with a few elite mtb’ers and believe you me they can ride dh just as quick as the fast lads. A certain elite xc rider and coach qualified in 8th at the mega this year and his final placing was higher than Sam blenkinsop and Sam dale. Schurter et al are all VERY good decenders, don’t kid yourself that just because they wear Lycra means that they can’t ‘do dh’. On the flip side, the athertons turned up to a local tt the other night and did very well too. At the end of the day, if you spend 20+ hours a week on the bike you’re going to be good in all areas.

The category system as races is a bit of a nightmare – the first national of the year saw an ex road elite rider win the sport category, but thats just how it is sometimes. If it what easy then everyone would be doing it. Racing xc takes as much dedication to fitness as it does road and this is what puts a lot of people off. It’s not just the two hour drive to races, it’s the 15+ hours of training each week that you need to do on top of it.

Nationals should be hard, that’s why they’re the nationals. You can’t pick and choose your category (at the sharp end), you turn up, you earn points, you move up a category. Im not fit enough to be in expert at the moment, that’s no fault of the organisers or other racers. It’s mine. Don’t whinge about it, train more and get faster.

I’ve raced downhill in the past and for me living in the south east, a 6 hour drive to fod for 5 minutes of racing just isn’t worth it. Clues in the name with the nationals, some years there are more up north, other years less so. They also have the open category races on the Saturday which you don’t need a license for, and that’s raced on the same course but just with fewer laps. One of njee’s mates I spoke to at the Sherwood national raced the open cat the year before and moved up to sport the following year where he beat me by miles. People just expect to turn up and win or place highly and be able to move up categories – its just not like that.

Just out of interest – Liam kileen is an awesome rider, I just don’t think people realise how hard it is to break into the top ten at the world cups

yeah I would actually say the hardest thing about DH is the mental side. Something the DH riders arent actually mentioning, but I have alot of respect for.

You’ve got to go out alone and show people what you can do. Everyone is watching you and checking what you can do. Makes it very easy to make mistakes.

With XC sometimes you can hide in the pack a bit and dont really need to show your self till later in the race.

Kimbers – yes, plenty of both discipline.

fervouredimage – Member
Surely kids just prefer DH over XC because of the fact it’s adrenaline fuelled, skill centric, the bikes are cool, the gear is cool (I don’t expect the middle aged folk on here to agree with that) and it’s just a great way to spend a day with your mates.

DH is pure fun and adrenaline, which is what kids for the most part are looking for. The kids who ride XC are the sort who started reading the Telegraph when they were seven.

Raced plenty of DH and XC (as well as crits, road races, track and motocross.)

As far as DH bikes and gear being cool, subjective but not IMO (mainly because everything in DH lacks a bit of finesse and cutting edge tech it’s not, the millyard was the most exciting DH bike by far.)

DH is fantastic but the best experience for me was riding in the alps with mates. Racing in that environment brings nothing to the table IMO. You are on your own on the run and there is no added excitement from racing I don’t think. But in the UK you basically have to race to get to good tracks and I found racing much less fun than the alps due to only getting a few runs in on the same tracks and all the known pitfalls. Motocross is much like DH racing but with actual racing i.e. you are bar to bar (and unlike DH I found racing much more exciting than just riding and I found both more fun than DH and no pushing up!) it’s also much more of a physical challenge and costs about the same hence I stopped DH. I find XC racing looses some of the excitement of motocross and is a different physical challenge but keeps all of the actual racing that makes it exciting. I get more excitement out of an hour XC race than a typical 5-7 run day of racing DH so I’d certainly not say DH is more exciting.

I want all out, fast as you can test of skill and explosive fitness racing whereby the endorphins flow and the momentary joy of nailing a run is overwhelming. When I’m 50 I may reconsider but for now I’ll stick with DH.

Posted 2 hours ago # Report-Post

If you want that DH is the wrong place, Track sprinting is so so so much more exciting than anything other form of cycling/sport (I also ski and snowboard and every the perfect pow day can’t compare to the last few seconds of a track race IMO and the anticipation, the nerves in a match sprint WOW.)

So to all the people who haven’t tried one or either maybe give both a go and make your own mind up before proclaiming the other as something it is not…

Iain

Short course XC racing and Downhill racing are just niche categories from the real sport.
They will have their ups and downs and as the sport grows so will the niche categories resulting in more air time/coverage, better riders, Gold medals etc..

But they will (IMO) always be niche categories I.E. most riders do not take part in these categories

The bread and butter of the sport is the middle ground and it is very difficult to create anything spectator friendly that resembles real MTB’ing.

Forum rules are clear.. The poster is always right.

DH is fantastic but the best experience for me was riding in the alps with mates. Racing in that environment brings nothing to the table IMO. You are on your own on the run and there is no added excitement from racing I don’t think.

Motocross is much like DH racing but with actual racing i.e. you are bar to bar (and unlike DH I found racing much more exciting than just riding and I found both more fun than DH and no pushing up!)

Never done mass-start endurance downhill races like the Mega then?

Track sprinting is so so so much more exciting than anything other form of cycling/sport

Agreed.

Iain how much track racing do/did you actually get to do? The chap I spoke to at Newport the other day reckoned they only did one race a year.

Agreed.

So you’ve raced DH and track and prefer track molgrips? 😛

Out of interest, What Cat do you race Njee?

I’m a meagre expert. To be honest I’d say I’m extremely mediocre, there are many folk on here far far quicker than me, several on this thread, and I’m the archetypal XC racer in that I gain places on the climbs and hold my own (at best) on the descents. Quicker than many ‘normal’ riders, but I’d be well well out of my comfort zone in a DH race.

I don’t really get the need some people have to compare XC and DH, to elevate one above the other or whatever. They are what they are, and are different. I’m glad folk enjoy both. I’d like to try a DH race, I suspect I’d not do as badly as I imagine I would given appropriate kit!

I won’t be racing DH or XC. Especially at Cwncarn

Did an XC race there in 2008 (3 laps of the Twrch) and it was indeed shit!

grum – Member

DH is fantastic but the best experience for me was riding in the alps with mates. Racing in that environment brings nothing to the table IMO. You are on your own on the run and there is no added excitement from racing I don’t think.

Motocross is much like DH racing but with actual racing i.e. you are bar to bar (and unlike DH I found racing much more exciting than just riding and I found both more fun than DH and no pushing up!)

Never done mass-start endurance downhill races like the Mega then?

Posted 3 minutes ago # Report-Post

No hence why I’ve not made a comment on them…

I’d love to do the Mega and I’m sure it would be the perfect answer to what I think DH racing is lacking and with a week or so riding before and after it would make almost the perfect holiday.

But that’s not what I want from racing, as an adventure yes, but it’s not something that is available to me week in week out for little cost (and hence not a viable alternative to XC or DH or anything really.) All of the other forms of racing I mentioned are both cheaper and more accessible to me with DH at the bottom of the list for cost and accessibility and crit racing at the top.

For me in terms of the best all-round racing package it’s hard to see past my local crit series. Every week, 15mins drive and £5.00 on the night for an hour 15 or so of racing. Not the end to end excitement of a DH run but the sprint surpasses DH in terms of peak excitement IMO (~36mph lead outs are good!) So more excitement per £ than almost anything else. And that’s why XC races struggle, why would I go further away and pay more when ultimately I don’t get much if anything more?

molgrips – Member

Track sprinting is so so so much more exciting than anything other form of cycling/sport

Agreed.

Iain how much track racing do/did you actually get to do? The chap I spoke to at Newport the other day reckoned they only did one race a year.

Posted 18 minutes ago # Report-Post

The big tracks aren’t really the place to go for racing, they cost so much to run that (I’ve been told) they make a loss what ever so they really only do things that draw in a lot of cash (i.e group bookings for 1st timers, coached sessions etc) and they are fully booked months in advance. I’ve only raced at Manchester and Newport once, but track league at Herne Hill is again top value. Costs simmilar to road racing but there are a lot of races on the evening program, all different, lots of sprints (points races, elimination, scratch, 3 lap dash) and hence much more excitement per £ than anything else IMO. Kit is cheep (you can hire a bike for £50.00 for the season) and they do some bigger races (Ross Edgar silver Medalist from 08 raced Good Friday.) There are quite a few round the country as well have a look at the national hard track endurance league.

Iain

ain how much track racing do/did you actually get to do? The chap I spoke to at Newport the other day reckoned they only did one race a year.

They do havea track league throughout the winter (scratch races etc) but i think the shorter events (team sprint, sprint) aren’t so often

The bread and butter of the sport is the middle ground and it is very difficult to create anything spectator friendly that resembles real MTB’ing.

i guess this turns on whether MTB is a sport or a pastime doesn’t it.

For most the pastime of cycling bares little resemblance to the sport of cycling.

It’s only really through competition mtb becomes sport. This whole thread concerns the sport rather than the past time.

Cheers Njee.
And I agree. There’s a massive range of difference between difficulty in DH tracks ranging from super steep super tech to fast and rough right down to xc style singltrack with the odd ‘feature’
Some XC race course descents are brilliant but usually much shorter.

Really interesting thread this, I have raced in the past XC, DH and Enduro (including the Mega) in all cases badly but have still enjoyed the experience. FWIW XC racing was for me the least enjoyable if I tried to do well, because it involves pushing your heart rate into the red and then trying to keep it there until the race ends. But then a great feeling once you have completed the course and managed to overtake a few people who went off too hard.

I have found both skill AND fitness to be a limiting factor in all formats, if you want to have fun fitness helps, if you want do well you have to have both. Obviously DH fitness and XC fitness are not the same once you get to a high level, DH requires much more explosive effort and more upper body strength, but the fitness base is the same.

It doesn’t matter if you are racing DH or XC if you can’t corner well and carry speed you will be slower and use more energy.

As for why we have so few top XC racers I’m not sure, we have many top DH’ers with no huge BC support so why no XC’ers I don’t know. Probably because no-one champions XC and its it is not pushed by the MTB media.

Most sports have lot of people who do it just for fun, most people who take part aren’t trying to conquer the world. It doesn’t mean you can’t have a successful elite level but it requires focus. DH focus comes from within I would suggest with people like Peaty and the industry nurturing talent, does this happen as much in XC in the UK? I don’t think so.

Err… I hope this stops before someone enters me in a DH race to prove a point

Well you have to enter the transvésubienne first 😉

Is this cause or effect though? Does the media push the DH side of things because that is more popular, or is it more popular due to the way it is presented in the media?

Oh – and some of the replies to this thread… http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/lycra-and-bar-ends-am-i-a-wrong-un#post-4077418. Seriously?

Well you have to enter the transvésubienne first

Y’know I’d rather do a DH race, strangely.

I have seen the track league link before TD, but strangely it doesn’t indicate any kind of programme of what events are actually on.

Grum – I actually did one DH race a very long time ago, before the sport really got going.

It was fun to ride the trail but against the clock is never going to be as exciting as shoulder to shoulder racing imo.

Cracking thread… Keep it up lads.

I’m not in a position to add anything to the debate as i’m one of the ‘normal’ people Njee talks about 🙂

Oh – and some of the replies to this thread… http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/lycra-and-bar-ends-am-i-a-wrong-un#post-4077418. Seriously?

I would question the OP in that thread – sounds like a massive troll to me.

Grum – I actually did one DH race a very long time ago, before the sport really got going.

So not really then. 🙂

I’m not in a position to add anything to the debate as i’m one of the ‘normal’ people Njee talks about

😉

I would question the OP in that thread – sounds like a massive troll to me.

Aye, the OP manages to be wonderfully hypocritical!

All bikes innit. I’ve had some good rides with people on 6″ travel bikes in body armour whilst I’ve been on my race bike in lycra. We’re a niche sport, I don’t really get why the infighting, surely we’d do better to all play nice.

Not sure what you’d achieve from making XC into DH, or vice versa frankly. Variety/spice of life and that.

Just saying.

Druidh – I’m not close enough to the scene to know. As I said I get the feeling that DH has a more organic support network to support and nurture top level junior racers and you can probably do better and get results without such a high level of cardio fitness and therefore if you have the talent and skills (which you can develop while mucking around in the woods with your mates) you can do well enough to stay motivated at DH and progress. I think you can still race DH at a high level and have lots of fun, while to get to a top level in XC it is more about suffering IMHO so personally if I had to choose I’d rather be a top DH’er than a top XC’er. Its chicken and egg with the media side, but DH is always going to look better in a video or a still image perhaps?

DH is always going to look better in a video or a still image perhaps?

That’s subjective though innit, as we’ve done to death. If you want to see proper one-on-one racing then XC looks better, if you think time trials then DH.

Still struggling with why we need to make comparisons or prove one to be better than the other though!

I reckon the media perceptions are part of the reason DH is more popular, and I think that it’s that way round, XC is bigger in Europe comparatively, and the bikes reflect that – plenty of Euros still riding v-braked hardtails, that all but died out even for XC racing here 5 years ago.

I’m not trying to say one is better than the other, just thinking aloud about why we (UK) don’t any top elite XC riders.

Is this cause or effect though? Does the media push the DH side of things because that is more popular, or is it more popular due to the way it is presented in the media?

Hmmm druidh I think XC racing lost its way about 10 years ago# when the courses became more of a road race on dirt just as the technology on bikes allowed greater technical riding.
So in the UK it seemed the XC racing scene went to enduro 12/24 hours whilst DH took off with some high profile successful riders like Peaty.
A lot of the top pro’s left XC racing to get well paid on the road and British Cycling never really liked XC anyway – preferring to focus on Track and Road.

The legacy of this seems to have been that grass roots XC racing at a local level almost disappeared. Then peeps like those at the Big Bike Bash and Big Dog got frustrated and created 3-6 hour races on technical XC courses.
So now there are local single events but still nothing to provide enough cheap to get to local races for young hopefuls to cut their teeth.

#although it could be longer – my memory ain’t what it was and years have started merging into one; I keep thinking I’m around 35….

Hmmm druidh I think XC racing lost its way about 10 years ago# when the courses became more of a road race on dirt just as the technology on bikes allowed greater technical riding…

…Then peeps like those at the Big Bike Bash and Big Dog got frustrated and created 3-6 hour races on technical XC courses.

But I don’t think it did. I started racing in 2000, and have been doing so regularly since. Courses have got more technical in that period, and whilst I’ve not done the BBB, I’d not say that Big Dog is technical, good fun, but I’ve done far more technical XC race courses.

Ive just been reading the qualifications needed to join the Olympic Talent Programme – http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/gbcyclingteam/article/gbr20120814-Olympic-Talent-Programme-Applications-0

Basically you have to be 14 or 15 and have to have gained a top 10 finish within their age category between January 1 and September 2nd 2012 in one of the following events:

National MTB Series (NPS) – individual event or overall standings
British National MTB Championship

So limited to only a very selct few then – Comes down to money I guess if your parents can afford to shuttle you all over the country pay for races, bikes etc… Its not exactly open to everyone and probably out of reach of virtually all future competitors…

British Cycling never really liked XC anyway – preferring to focus on Track and Road.

Not true to say that BC never “liked” XC.
MTBers have always been a very independent bunch: it’s a very young sport (compared to Road/Track) and there isn’t the same club structure that Road has and MTBers are generally much more independent anyway – why do you need a “governing body” to go for a ride in the hills?

Medals (and hence funding) is much easier to come by on Road/Track, you’ve got the infrastructure already in place (eg Manchester Velodrome) at the time that Lottery Funding is coming through, there are multiple championships to be won (various sprints, pursuit, omnium etc) and success there ensures funding. The BMX centre in Manchester wouldn’t have been built without the Road & Track success bringing the publicity and medals and funding.

MTB XC is MUCH harder to control, to find the talent, to bring it on and there are far fewer opportunities to win medals and championships (and far less publicity when you do). Most of the pool of talent actually comes from CX races cos there are lots of Youth riders doing them, they’re accessible and cheap. From CX, riders can go the Road/Track route or the MTB route.

the courses became more of a road race on dirt

I missed that.

However I think the reason that people prefer to do long marathons is that it’s much easier. You can keep plodding on and enjoy the ride even if you’re not that fit, but trundling around an XC course when your lungs are hanging out, you’re somewhere in the last 20% and you can’t see any other riders isn’t actually much fun.

why do you need a “governing body” to go for a ride in the hills?

The same argument applies to road riding. Most road riding is done recreationally just the same as MTBing. Track is different of course.

Semi related question – were there any country team sponsors? Just noticed looking through all the pics that the Swiss riders were on DT-Swiss forks which made me think more – did you have teams with different bikes depending on personal sponsor, or were they all on team bikes? If they were on team bikes then that must have taken a bit of getting used to after racing on your sponsors bike?

I dont know the answer but did notice liam on a giant and annie on a boardman…

were there any country team sponsors?

Interesting question, I’m fairly sure not, unless anyone was there as a privateer(don’t know the answer). Plenty had special paint jobs (all the S-Works were fluorescent orange; Rwanda, Aus and USA guys all had custom painted bikes), but I think everyone was on their normal equipment.

I dont know the answer but did notice liam on a giant and annie on a boardman…

That’s their pro sponsors as above.

Anyway I’m off to do a road race now….where the real money is 🙂