Do you have statistics for that? Or are you guessing in order to support your argument?

You might want to look for deeper meanings*… why do people lie, steal, cheat or threaten people unless they hand over something they want.

*This is what I’d encouraging you to do. Look deeper.

ie you seem to have sidestepped examining statistics for baseball bat crime (and my proffered ‘deeper meaning’ re examining male violence/‘righting wrongs’) in favour of your ongoing discussion about self-defence/reasonable force?

I’m not saying that self-defence doesn’t have a place in this discussion, street theft neither, but you don’t seem to wish to acknowledge or explore that there is any other psychology/culture/metric at play regarding aggressive/violent/abusive behaviours

why do people lie, steal, cheat or threaten people unless they hand over something they want.

The simple answer is because they can and there is no recourse.

That’s not ‘deeper’ It’s ‘a simple (sic) answer’ offered by you. And like most simple answers to complex and ongoing issues, it is probably lacking. And it’s one that might easily be proven if we were all fire-armed, baseball-bat carrying, and trained in weapon use. The great equaliser?

But ‘deep’? Not all all. Quite the opposite, tbh. Where are the most peaceful and safest countries in the world today? Give me say ten reasons why they are that way and then let’s go deeper?

Still strongly recommend you opening a separate thread about theft/assault and self defence/reasonable force

Well, reading some of the male contributions on this thread it is clear that men won’t be sorting this issue out any time quick…

p7eaven

*This is what I’d encouraging you to do. Look deeper.

ie you seem to have sidestepped examining statistics for baseball bat crime (and my proffered ‘deeper meaning’ re examining male violence/‘righting wrongs’) in favour of your ongoing discussion about self-defence/reasonable force?

I’m not saying that self-defence doesn’t have a place in this discussion, street theft neither, but you don’t seem to wish to acknowledge or explore that there is any other psychology/culture/metric at play regarding aggressive/violent/abusive behaviours

It’s not about self defence, it’s about why people can get away with unreasonable and anti-social behaviour. However deeply you wish to think about it the main reason I’m not going to call out a bloke wolf whistling a female is that unless I’m prepared to go to court and face a criminal record there is absolutely nothing I can do. If my answer to him saying so what the F are you going to do about it is “I’ll meekly walk away” all I’m doing is encouraging that behaviour.

From your answers on here then the thing most likely to prevent it escalating is also missing, that is 3-4 other people standing up.

If the bloke comes over and you say “I think you should apologise to the lady” what exactly are you going/willing to do? We already know the guy is a dick… he’s in front of his mates … do you think he’ll apologise?

Well, reading some of the male contributions on this thread it is clear that men won’t be sorting this issue out any time quick…

Kinda difficult to sort something out when the law would put you in prison for sorting it out.

p7eaven

*This is what I’d encouraging you to do. Look deeper.

Or take littering … it’s all the same.
I usually pick up litter and put it into a trash can but I’m not sure its helping.

Those that drop it see me picking it up and have a good laugh. Do you suppose if I asked them nicely they’d pick up their own or do you think a bunch of 5-6 dicks are more likely to just get violent towards a single old looking bloke?

From your answers on here then the thing most likely to prevent it escalating is also missing, that is 3-4 other people standing up.

yet another strawman. I was being specific replying to your scenario about someone coming at me (unspecified reason, or size etc) with a baseball bat. It is generally not sensible to attempt to disarm someone with a baseball bat unless you are confident they can be immediately overwhelmed, and preferably from a distance. You didn’t seem willing to discuss the hypothesis/statistics about why and which people generally attack other people with baseball bats. You simply claimed it was ‘normally to get your phone/wallet’. Why would you make that claim?

Now you’re applying the same strawman to wolf-whistling.

I don’t generally reprimand strange men for wolf-whistling. If they seem like an aggressive sort, would you escalate that situation if the only thing they did was whistle? What would that achieve? I’d rather gauge/assess the situation first.

I might, on the other, hand call my friends out for it. Hypothetically. Never did when I was at school/a school-leaver. But there were lots of things we didn’t call out back then, more to our shame.

thing most likely to prevent it escalating is also missing, that is 3-4 other people standing up.

It’s a novel idea. ‘Man whistles at woman and gets cancelled by woke streetmob’

Did anyone watch BBC Big Question this morning?
One of the studio guests was Michael Conroy, founder of Men At Work
[Who we are. What we do.
Men At Work C.I.C. offers bespoke training & support for those working with Boys and Young Men.
We work with you to enhance your skills in supporting boys and young men to navigate their way towards safe, healthy and respectful adult lives.]
https://menatworkcic.org/

On The Big Questions he raised the issue of porn, and how it’s now something kids of primary school age are exposed to (via smart phones).

You didn’t seem willing to discuss the hypothesis/statistics about why and which people generally attack other people with baseball bats. You simply claimed it was ‘normally to get your phone/wallet’. Why would you make that claim?

The main reason anyone attacks anyone is to get/do something they want or because you called them out over their anti-social behaviour which amount to the same thing. Whether its a baseball bat, tyre wrench, knife or whatever they have to hand is a bit irrelevant.

You can decide your own reasons … or just ask them nicely.

I on the other hand will respond first and ask questions after either because I find asking about their childhood doesn’t defuse the situation or more because I just don’t care. Someone who attacks me especially with a weapon has just lost their right to empathy and given me a legal recourse if its on camera.

I’ve found out through experience that trying to reason with a nut job that wants something from you is pointless. I ended up with slashes to my arm for my trouble. (Amazingly < 200m from the same place I removed the youths from the bus if a year or so later)
He was willing to do this for a cigarette I refused to give him and it cost me a jacket and a shirt but ultimately I had something he wanted and refused to give it to him.
Ironically, had he not started out by threatening me I’d likely have offered to share it.

A lot to respond to there and in other posts. I’ll try and get time to answering your questions of/directed to me.

But Steve, just to clarify:

I on the other hand will respond first and ask questions after either because I find asking about their childhood doesn’t defuse the situation

When you write that (and other similar remarks) I can’t determine if or not you are

1. Attempting to be entertaining/facetious with patently ridiculous strawmen
2. Being directly facetious because you *really believe* anyone here has suggested such a response/tactic to an immediate/developing physical threat?

I’m not sure what this thread has descending into, but it appears it’s no longer a discussion about men’s violence against women. I guess that shouldn’t surprise anyone because, after all this is a forum of (almost entirely) men chatting (mostly) about bikes.

There’s a been a few comments here on how women being murdered by strangers is ‘rare’ and whilst these exact words haven’t been used, the implication is that women are ‘weaponising their trauma’, a phrase commonly use elsewhere to dismiss womens’ experiences and concerns.

This just popped up on my FB feed. This is what women have to put up with
https://www.facebook.com/694137983/videos/10158361057932984/

^ So what’s the immediate solution response?

1. Film him?
2. Physically assault him/gather passers by to create a mob?
3. Ridicule him/verbally attack/shame him?
4. Run and call the cops?
5. Monitor/follow him while calling the cops?

Also, how common is this behaviour? Mrs P tells me that she was ‘flashed’ as a girl, but nothing was done/no crime reported as the parent felt that the man was ‘mentally fragile’

I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. But it was the 1970s.

*Edit

More than 750,000 adults aged 16-74 were victims of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault in the year ending March 2020, according to the data published by the ONS. There were 618,000 female victims, four times as many as male.

According to the survey, 22.9% of women said they had experienced a sexual assault or attempted sexual assault since the age of 16, ranging from indecent exposure and unwanted touching to rape and assault by penetration.

“These latest figures confirm that the prevalence of sexual violence and abuse remains very high, that women are disproportionately impacted by these traumatic crimes, and that the majority of victims and survivors don’t feel confident to report to the police,” said Katie Russell, a national spokesperson for Rape Crisis England & Wales.

“While criminal justice outcomes remain so low and the majority of sexual offenders walk free after what can be a very long and sometimes retraumatising process, perhaps it is unsurprising that less than 20% of victims and survivors choose to report.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/18/ons-survey-finds-one-in-14-women-have-been-victim-of

When you write that (and other similar remarks) I can’t determine if or not you are

1. Attempting to be entertaining/facetious with patently ridiculous strawmen
2. Being directly facetious because you *really believe* anyone here has suggested such a response/tactic to an immediate/developing physical threat?

I don’t know a bit of both. I find it hard to express something that seems so clear to me.

As I said the solution is simple, we need to renormalize violence if the majority of men wish to do anything against harassment of women by strangers or other anti-social behaviour.

Most of us are not going to get involved as potentially saying something carries much higher sentencing than wolf whistling or selling drugs outside the school. (or our local complaint on the schools football ground pavilion)

Both these are to me the same, I’m not getting a criminal record for saying “excuse me that was inappropriate, I think you should apologise” or “could you sell your drugs elsewhere”.

I’d also be very careful if I saw someone being mugged nowadays…with cameras everywhere and a convict the good Samaritan attitude it’s not worth the risk of going to help someone.

@stevextc

The main reason anyone attacks anyone is to get/do something they want or because you called them out over their anti-social behaviour which amount to the same thing.

Where are you getting your figures from?

In the year ending March 2020 CSEW, the most common perpetrators of violent crime were acquaintances (43%, 528,000 offences), with 41% of offences (511,000) perpetrated by a stranger, and the remaining 16% (200,000 offences) categorised as domestic violence

You claim:

Whether its a baseball bat, tyre wrench, knife or whatever they have to hand is a bit irrelevant.

Strawman argument. I asked why your hypothetical baseball bat wielder was swinging for me. You made the claim that most incidents in which baseball bats are being used against people are (street?) theft incidents.

I challenged your claim. Details of incidents matter when assessing their cause. What if (hypothetically) most baseball bat incidents were by males and used in retribution to a real or perceived ‘wrong’ or ‘turf war’? Is your empathic response to someone being violently robbed by a stranger the same as your empathic response to someone taking a baseball bat to that same stranger for having violently robbed them?

No one here has suggested asking them about their childhood at the scene of the crime. So why do you respond as if they have?

I don’t know a bit of both. I find it hard to express something that seems so clear to me.

It’s not clear to me who or what you are responding to. Why use strawmen?

There’s a been a few comments here on how women being murdered by strangers is ‘rare’ and whilst these exact words haven’t been used, the implication is that women are ‘weaponising their trauma’, a phrase commonly use elsewhere to dismiss womens’ experiences and concerns.

Women being murdered by strangers is rare… but hey its acceptable to discuss unlike the majority of women being murdered. We can’t talk about that though … it’s not acceptable debate as the most at risk by a long way are in minority groups (the police so politely put it as murders reported to the police) which doesn’t happen when a daughter is murdered for an honour killing and the outside get told “oh she went and got married” so lets talk about something barely ever happens instead.

the implication is that women are ‘weaponising their trauma’

Back to exceptionalism… FFS men do it why shouldn’t women?

Strawman argument. I asked why your hypothetical baseball bat wielder was swinging for me. You made the claim that most incidents in which baseball bats are being used against people are (street?) theft incidents.

No I said the reason people attack people is to get or do something they want.

What if (hypothetically) most baseball bat incidents were by males and used in retribution to a real or perceived ‘wrong’ or ‘turf war’?

That’s what I just said ^ (other than your “perceived”)… “to get or do something they want”
Though quite why you are fixated on a baseball bat is a mystery. It’s just an example.

Is your empathic response to someone being robbed by a stranger the same as your empathic response to someone taking a baseball bat to that stranger?

Did they go out looking for a turf war? If so they have my support as they got what they were looking for.

@stevextc

With respect, you actually claimed:

The usual reason, you didn’t want to give them your phone and wallet.

You later added ‘to do something they want’. I’m not sure what that means.

I don’t know where you get your stats, I’m assuming you’re just guessing.

For the sake/respect of both this thread (not derailing it further) and your thoughtful input about a bigger picture (worth discussing) I’ve opened one about ‘normalising violence’

Normalising violence? Confidence in law enforcement?

it’s not acceptable debate

Mate, it’s all acceptable debate. What’s not acceptable is loading your contributions with judgements. Do you actually understand that you are doing this?

Women being murdered by strangers is rare… but hey its acceptable to discuss unlike the majority of women being murdered. We can’t talk about that though …

Don’t see anything in TOS. Am assuming that you/we are discussing?

it’s not acceptable debate as the most at risk by a long way are in minority groups (the police so politely put it as murders reported to the police) which doesn’t happen when a daughter is murdered for an honour killing and the outside get told “oh she went and got married” so lets talk about something barely ever happens instead.

What are the stats for ‘honour killings’ in the UK? Again, where are you getting your stats/info! You never answer that!

In the year to March 2020, 207 women were killed in Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales). This means about one in four killings were of women.

Most violent attacks are by people the victim knows – 92% in the case of women and 79% among men.
We don’t have statistics which show what proportion of women were attacked by men or other women, but most people found guilty of violent crimes are men.
In 2019, about 85% of people sentenced in court for violent crime were men.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-56365412

Mate, it’s all acceptable debate. What’s not acceptable is loading your contributions with judgements. Do you actually understand that you are doing this?

It’s not acceptable though is it?

What are the stats for ‘honour killings’ in the UK? Again, where are you getting your stats/info! You never answer that!

There are no stats, as I quoted earlier the stats are only for crimes REPORTED to the police and many honour killings (and suspected ones) are not reported.
Where I’m getting information from is from a very old friend who spent a lot of time in womens refuges and through that met a lot of other women in the same position as her from the same sub-culture. For I hope obvious reasons I’m not going to mention her name or where she (and her son) are now.

It’s not about pure numbers either … what these women fear is straight out pre-meditated murder not simply violence or a semi “accidental”. (Not that I’m suggesting the latter is acceptable) but you can add in botched backstreet abortions and FGM.

We don’t have statistics which show what proportion of women were attacked by men or other women, but most people found guilty of violent crimes are men.

Much as that is unsurprising it’s also not completely representative in detail.
The definition of violent crime is different and the reporting is different and the conviction is different.

I have never in 52yrs reported a violent crime of any type but most specifically ones committed by women. I did briefly consider it when my son’s mother tried to strangle me or when she hit me with a chair but she was quick to point out she “would tell the police I attacked her and who will they believe” and other than my son having to witness this no actual damage was done (other than a broken chair).

However either way, even when I’ve been stabbed I wouldn’t risk reporting the crime as I then have to defend myself against a proportional response.

The point is it’s like taking figures for bike crime. Unless a bike is insured why would anyone report it especially as you are then unable to reclaim the bike should you find it?

But anyway, to go back to your or the BBC’s graph … and taking all the vagaries above as a bit of noise it illustrates that women have little to fear in terms of violent crime from strangers of any gender and a lot to fear from people they already know and also within their household or ex partners.

This is actually what we should be focussing on not some incredibly rare incident of a serving police officer murdering a stranger.

Young men on the other hand face dangers outside the home though the graph doesn’t illustrate this well as it has biased by including friend and acquaintance in the same category. This further biases the reporting as many men are going to avoid reporting or medical interventions that include automatic reporting to avoid being forced to defend their actions.

I wasn’t aware that ‘up to 80% of women held in Russian prisons for murder killed a domestic abuser in self-defence.’ There don’t seem to be any useful laws in place there to deal with domestic abuse and even those are being removed? wtf?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49318003

Russia’s lower house of parliament, the Duma, has approved an amendment that removes domestic abuse from the criminal code.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38794677

Seem to remember someone saying earlier in the thread that ‘abuse is what you make it’? That sadly rings true here.