Off the back of the violence against women thread, it was getting derailed and yet I think it’s a really important/interesting subject.

@stevextc posited:

As I said the solution is simple, we need to renormalize violence if the majority of men wish to do anything against harassment of women by strangers or other anti-social behaviour.

Most of us are not going to get involved as potentially saying something carries much higher sentencing than wolf whistling or selling drugs outside the school. (or our local complaint on the schools football ground pavilion)

Both these are to me the same, I’m not getting a criminal record for saying “excuse me that was inappropriate, I think you should apologise” or “could you sell your drugs elsewhere”.

There was also a link to the video of a group of young boys/teens riding around a supermarket in their BMXs.

Are we becoming a nation of wimps who are scared of righting wrongs by our not delivering what used used be known as ‘street justice’?

If someone jumped a queue would you be scared to pull them aside because they’d (successfully) get you charged with assault?

What if they were not just jumping a queue but were manualling their BMX through the checkout in a dangerous fashion?

What would you do/have you done?

Stuff like this really boils my piss.

In my experience it often just takes one person to do or say something to give others the “permission” they need to also intervene.

Much to my wife’s annoyance, I am usually one of the first to call people out on shit like this. People trying to jump queues, yoofs throwing empty cans down on the ground within yards of a bin, people sitting in the middle of a footpath, lads harassing a young mother at the local shops. These are just a few recent examples that spring to mind. I find that often, if a few people point out what a dick they’re being and vaguely look like they might be willing to do something about it, it’s enough to put an end to it.

Are we becoming a nation of wimps

We always have been, Brits On The Piss tours aside.

I am not and would never advocate random violence, but when met with someone wearing a chinstrap during a global pandemic do you a) say to them “excuse me, would you mind pulling up your mask for me please” or b) tut, roll your eyes and ignore it?

I do the latter and I despise myself because of it.

Re: the video, I’m not watching a 25-minute YouTube without context. Does anyone have the Cliff Notes?

^ sorry, @7:20 there is two minutes or so of riding around a supermarket, pulling stuff off shelves, one of them getting grabbed/arrested by elderly woman, then one of them punching a male shopper, etc.

Rest of it is varying degrees of yob tossery on the streets and paths, intimidating a random kid with homophobic insults and staring him down etc.

I like deltacharlie72 tend to get stuck in again much to my wifes annoyance also.

Also they fully blocked the pavement outside MacDonalds, who knows what they were doing inside.

Anyway options:

1) Consider get chatting to one, the point out that they are blocking the pavement. Probs they would guilt into tidying the bikes up.

However, its risky, there are a lot of them and they might be violent/thugs, the video says not, but if you haven’t seen the video how would you know.

So you might end up a victim.

2) Calling the cops? Zero confidence here they probably will not do anything, and at worst you are just as likely to end up a victim there too. They like nothing better than a soft middle class target. When I was growing up (small town) 70’s/80’s you felt you could trust a copper, and your parents taught you that. But now my experience says only call the cops if your life is in serious danger, otherwise involving them is likely to bring you more trouble. This is what I teach my kids, never speak to a cop, avoid them at all costs and if you get stopped keep your gob shut.

3) Walk away, find a different supermarket/mcds. This is my favoured approach.

And in related news…

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/this-could-have-been-me/

As I said the solution is simple, we need to renormalize violence if the majority of men wish to do anything against harassment of women by strangers or other anti-social behaviour.

I don’t think any-one thinks that vigilante justice is the right way to deal with this problem, do they? I mean define antisocial behavior? some of it is plain fo’shure, (that BMX video) but what you think is anti social won’t be for others, and what you think doesn’t deserves a clip round the ear, for some is a reason to be the local bully boy. Don’t like gay people..?  Some-one had to sort them out your honour..

Both these are to me the same, I’m not getting a criminal record for saying “excuse me that was inappropriate, I think you should apologise” or “could you sell your drugs elsewhere”.

This is extraordinary unlikely. The lack of self awareness of at the same proclaiming that violence against women is vanishingly small, and then using “I’m not going to get a criminal record” as your paper thin excuse for not doing anything is Tory Cabinet Minister levels of double-standards

so the answer to violence, is more violence?

all sounds a bit charles bronson. better start growing a moustache.

I blame the parents

What about if someone is riding a bike on a ‘footpath’, or path where bikes aren’t allowed to be ridden? Should someone resort to violence, if the rider doesn’t immediately respond to requests to not ride their bike there?

What about if someone is riding a bike on a ‘footpath’, or path where bikes aren’t allowed to be ridden? Should someone resort to violence,

I think the point @stevextc was making (correct me if I’m wrong) is that if a person/persons are endangering you/someone else or being rude (ie attacking you, or parking on yellow lines, or jumping queues) then you can’t intervene because the law is on their side. But if we were the kind of society who would all intervene then the tide would change? So miscreants would fear messing with us rather than the other way around.

Also, dangerous liars would get beaten and so a strong message would be sent? Again, correct me if I’m wrong.

Boris wrote a ministerial code…. one he flagrantly breaks because there are no consequences to breaking it.
IMHO an amendment that says should the PM lie the leader of the opposition is allowed to beat the shit out of them would result in a far more civilised house of commons.

To translate this to daily life… when someone just pushes in from of you in the supermarket queue what do you do?
The truth is there is NOTHING you can do except perhaps ask the person on the checkout not to serve them… and they know that.

No, the youths in that video are out of order, no question. But as for using force/violence to deal with the behaviour of someone doing something you don’t approve of, where do you draw the line? So if someone thinks it’s ok to assault a cyclist on a forbidden path, is that ok because they’re able to justify it to themselves? In that video, it would be perfectly legal to use ‘appropriate force’ to try to prevent a breach of the peace and/or injury to persons. So if you’ve got the stones, go for it. We’re increasingly living in a society where money and power talk louder than the ‘law’ anyway, see members of our political classes. So if you have the ‘power’, use it. That seems to be the message…

I think it was Pinker who said that we’re living in the most peaceful time ver. The reasons (locally) vary i think, but largely he said that:

1. legitimately held power (democracy)

2. feminisation of societies (more and more women in positions of power, police, govt, judicial, and commercial)

3. Education; regardless of your thoughts on modern education, we’re educating people to be rational thinkers rather than traditionalists

4. Global media and trade, humanises the world

Meant the world was becoming less violent. I think then to retreat to a place when “Men were Men” and everyone who stepped out of line gets a “Tar ‘n’ feathering”…is a backwards step.

I think the point @stevextc was making (correct me if I’m wrong) is that if a person/persons are endangering you/someone else or being rude (ie attacking you, or parking on yellow lines, or jumping queues) then you can’t intervene because the law is on their side. But if we were the kind of society who would all intervene then the tide would change? So miscreants would fear messing with us rather than the other way around.

Mob justice is a big thing in Afghanistan.

It’s working out swimmingly for them.

I mean how **** stupid does the OP have to be to suggest “renormalizing” violence – oh yeah, street justice Duterte style! Awesome! That’s going to work out well in the long term isn’t it – and the vast majority of men are definitely not stupid enough for that renormalized violence to spill out into areas where violence isn’t appropriate.

Also, does anyone actually really think the police are stupid enough to charge you – if you get attacked after sticking up for a woman and you end up battering them? I know a few people who would have done some time if the police actually cared that much about known miscreants being on the receiving end of questionable “reasonable use of force”.

August 2019? Are there any newer videos? Or, like, have those kids had their fun (fUN! everythings alright as long as its FUN!), grown up a bit and are doing something else?

Perhaps those kids just wanted to build some jumps in the local woods, to be able to let off some steam, but the local council kept flattening them…

August 2019? Are there any newer videos? Or, like, have those kids had their fun (fUN! everythings alright as long as its FUN!), grown up a bit and are doing something else?

I won’t be promoting his channel but he’s 21yrs old now (19 in the video) ragging around on bikes weaving between traffic with his gang of 12yr miscreants. A bit like a latterday Fagin on a bicycle. Almost sounds ‘glamorous’ innit. I believe his mum paid his (small) fine for the Asda incident.

Not wishing to focus on that video but the wider picture of meekness.

ie what to do with threating/dangerous/thieving/littering/lying people if the police/justice are increasingly powerless/ and appear to err on the side of the perpetrators?

The amount of money the Tory party spends on law and order (both police and the judicial system) tells you exactly how important this is to society.

It’s *our* society that chose to put them in power, so we should assume that this is the outcome that our society desires.

I don’t think any-one thinks that vigilante justice is the right way to deal with this problem, do they?

and that isn’t what I was saying rather … you should feel free to say something without worrying that you will end up in court if they turn it violent.

Calling the cops? Zero confidence here they probably will not do anything, and at worst you are just as likely to end up a victim there too. They like nothing better than a soft middle class target. When I was growing up (small town) 70’s/80’s you felt you could trust a copper, and your parents taught you that. But now my experience says only call the cops if your life is in serious danger, otherwise involving them is likely to bring you more trouble. This is what I teach my kids, never speak to a cop, avoid them at all costs and if you get stopped keep your gob shut.

This is exactly it …

I think the point @stevextc was making (correct me if I’m wrong) is that if a person/persons are endangering you/someone else or being rude (ie attacking you, or parking on yellow lines, or jumping queues) then you can’t intervene because the law is on their side. But if we were the kind of society who would all intervene then the tide would change? So miscreants would fear messing with us rather than the other way around.

more or less…. I think you missed the most important point though and that is probably a reflection on you in a good way

I have zero faith in the police or criminal justice system in England.
What prevents me saying something is quite literally my answer to “So what you goin to f-ing do about it”

What I’m talking about is the right/ability to SAY something without the fear of ending up on the wrong side of the dock and a criminal record.

To take an example of anti-social behaviour … “Excuse me you dropped your litter” for which I expect a response from those doing it deliberately of “or what” with everyone around (your witnesses that they punched you first) then walking off quickly to avoid getting involved.

I mean how **** stupid does the OP have to be to suggest “renormalizing” violence – oh yeah, street justice Duterte style! Awesome!

Renormalising violence simply means that. The majority have become denormalised whilst the minority exploit that.

On an individual level this is standing up to bullies but this is on a level of the national psyche. What is missing is the expectation that saying “what you doing to do about it” will be met with several people saying “whatever it takes” and we are all sticking about as witnesses.

This isn’t really complicated it is simply readdressing the denormalisation of violence in return for violence as a realistic outcome.

Dropping litter may not see very important, after all you can just pick up after them but what they are being taught is by issuing a threat of violence they can get away with anything.

Over the last few weeks I’ve had multiple people trying to steal from my drive right in front of me. I started off with “excuse me” … “went through please leave my property now” to which all I got was violent threats. I picked up a 4′ steel bar and asked them to leave again and they couldn’t leave quickly enough.
I didn’t “need” the steel bar, the steel bar was simply to convince them I was serious and to actually avoid violence by the threat of violence. Yes ironic…

Also, dangerous liars would get beaten and so a strong message would be sent? Again, correct me if I’m wrong.

That was a bit tongue in cheek, I am trying to break the barriers of “civilised behaviour” the younger generation have been indoctrinated with.

Why is Boris lying to parliament when they all know he’s lying considered a civilised democracy (in England) but actually calling him out for lying is uncivilised.

Personally I’d gall everytime I had to say “the right honourable” … and continue the charade the blatent lies are a honest mistake and I find this sort of bullying as bad or worse.

Renormalising violence simply means that. The majority have become denormalised whilst the minority exploit that.

On an individual level this is standing up to bullies but this is on a level of the national psyche. What is missing is the expectation that saying “what you doing to do about it” will be met with several people saying “whatever it takes” and we are all sticking about as witnesses.

This isn’t really complicated it is simply readdressing the denormalisation of violence in return for violence as a realistic outcome.

Dropping litter may not see very important, after all you can just pick up after them but what they are being taught is by issuing a threat of violence they can get away with anything.

Over the last few weeks I’ve had multiple people trying to steal from my drive right in front of me. I started off with “excuse me” … “went through please leave my property now” to which all I got was violent threats. I picked up a 4′ steel bar and asked them to leave again and they couldn’t leave quickly enough.
I didn’t “need” the steel bar, the steel bar was simply to convince them I was serious and to actually avoid violence by the threat of violence. Yes ironic…

You’re a fool.

The Dutch manage to not litter without “renormalizing” violence, Maastricht is the safest city that I’ve ever lived in by far. Whilst Japan is one of the safest countries in the world and yet has a society that tries to avoid conflict at all costs.

People resort to crime and corruption less when society is more equitable, education is better, the national culture values caring about others and housing encourages the development of real communities.

The reason the UK is shit, is because everyone there thinks they’re “hard”, they have the American style “independent” attitude, hate taxes and secretly want to be like the Americans and use violence/guns to solve everything.

The whole country is suffering from a collective personality disorder.

From the outside looking in, it’s increasingly looking like the States or one of those failed borderline democracies that have no cultural values holding it’s disparate people together.

You’re a fool.

Ah, the art of insulting people who hold different beliefs than you do showing how to use aggressive behaviour whilst decrying violence.

 you should feel free to say something without worrying that you will end up in court if they turn it violent.

I’ve no worries about talking to folk about picking up their litter, did it only a few months ago outside the practice with some random who just dropped a crisp packet. I just asked him to pick it up, which he did…absolutely no issues

I didn’t “need” the steel bar, the steel bar was simply to convince them I was serious and to actually avoid violence by the threat of violence. Yes ironic…

is this called the clint complex?

The reason the UK is shit, is because everyone there thinks they’re “hard”

Really? What a bizarre assertion on which to base your explanation of the societal problems of 21st century Britain. Presumably there’s evidence to support this? Excuse me if I seem sceptical, but in my experience this is true of only a very small proportion of the population.

@stevextc

I think you missed the most important point though and that is probably a reflection on you in a good way

I have zero faith in the police or criminal justice system in England.
What prevents me saying something is quite literally my answer to “So what you goin to f-ing do about it”

Don’t think I missed it? Whether or not it reflects well on me (?) I too have very little faith in the police force/justice system.

Not least as Mrs P (before we met) was for a while stalked, intimidated and threatened by a (male) police officer who once smiled ‘hello’ one sunny day at some traffic lights through open windows. She made the mistake of saying ‘hello’ back. He then asked her out for a drink and she politely declined. He followed her into the daycare parking. And then located her home and number. That prompted months of intimidation, stalking, sitting in his unmarked car all night outside her apartment, calling her intercom and then on her landline pretending to have lawful reasons for watching her apartment. This escalated into direct threats to fabricate evidence, things like accuse her of ‘soliciting’ in a nearby city. Having other departments call her with threats of taking her son away to CPS. She was as you might guess a complete wreck at this point, terrified, so drove immediately to the school with a friend to grab and protect her son, take them to safety. Safety FROM the police/gov, you understand? And then, where is ‘safe’?

It’s a very long story I won’t go fully into it. Upshot was Mrs P luckily had a female friend who was a Lieutenant and had contact in internal affairs. Once she was informed things happened, and Mrs P was called in to give evidence against her tormentor. Turned out he had already been ‘evaluated’ (psychologically) a number of times, and there were almost identical complaints against him from a number of other (similarly young,blonde,slim) women. Yet there he was, still on ‘duty’. Still carrying a firearm. And who were the other cops calling Mrs P at all hours making threats on his behalf?

So he would use his position/power to basically say ‘what are you going to do about it’. She was one of the ‘lucky’ ones. Having friends in the right places helps. I’d also say that it’s essential to pursue and maintain a multigendered police force. This should really be in the Other Thread.

But as for what you believe to be the ‘point’, I did write in the comment before yours:

ie what to do with threating/dangerous/thieving/littering/lying people if the police/justice are increasingly powerless/ and appear to err on the side of the perpetrators?

I believe though you’re maybe missing a few equally (if not more) important points’ about causes of violence, abuse etc.

Really? What a bizarre assertion on which to base your explanation of the societal problems of 21st century Britain. Presumably there’s evidence to support this? Excuse me if I seem sceptical, but in my experience this is true of only a very small proportion of the population.

Yes really.

You only notice the British love for it when you leave, be it Spitfires or glassing each other on a Friday night.

Ah, the art of insulting people who hold different beliefs than you do showing how to use aggressive behaviour whilst decrying violence.

The countries in the world with the highest levels of violence are also those with the highest levels of mob justice and lowest levels of institutional effectiveness and legitimacy. They aren’t the countries with the lowest levels of mob justice or “normalized violence”. Things are getting shitter in the United Kingdom not because of pacifist lefty wokism but because yall voted Tory who have spent the past 11 years underfunding your police, undermining your judiciary and encouraging further increases in inequality.

So he would use his position/power to basically say ‘what are you going to do about it’.

This should really be in the Other Thread.

Yeah well, as I was saying it’s two sides to the same coin.

Having other departments call her with threats of taking her son away to CPS.

which is the ultimate low, dirty .. but lucky it worked out but that’s not the part I was referring to.

I didn’t “need” the steel bar, the steel bar was simply to convince them I was serious and to actually avoid violence by the threat of violence. Yes ironic…

What I meant is between the “excuse me” and the violence part. Hence the reason I used a steel bar to reinforce my request rather than just keep telling them to leave which they obviously weren’t taking seriously. At this point my request was suddenly in a language they understood and thus avoided the violence that would have likely followed.

I believe though you’re maybe missing a few equally (if not more) important points’ about causes of violence, abuse etc.

Perhaps … the point is whatever the cause Mrs. P.s nemesis is a dick.
There is no doubt in my mind he is equally abusive all round to anyone that offends or questions him. He’s the sort of cop that carries round the 2g of crack hidden away to set someone up or will quite happily fabricate evidence or stop and search someone for being the wrong colour.

And who were the other cops calling Mrs P at all hours making threats on his behalf?

A few speculations but officers over which he had sway ? Owed a favour? Pack mentality?
About 11-12yrs ago a set of officers were sent out multiple times to stop and search white folk.
(This was later recorded by Lord Carlyle) and every one of them went and did just that. Not a single one reported this anywhere that went anywhere until it was stumbled over in a review more or less by accident. (A review of stop and search and how mysteriously several thousand white people were all stopped and searched and issued 5090’s over a couple of days in 2 locations but no a single non-white)

Despite this being clearly illegal they did it anyway…
Were they all “bad” ? I think more likely it was following orders and pack mentality.

However, a bit of a distraction … why did they go along with it.

The bigger question perhaps is the WHY…?
I am rather skeptical of people who make money by long psychological ramblings because what it comes down to is them proving a theory. People with weird morals do what they do because they can using whatever tools they can.

Given its now popular to knock a few years off if they can make some “it’s cos of my childhood guv” its hardly surprising they can find the evidence. Just like it was popular to say “I was evil but now I found Jesus” …. “erm can I get paroled” in the past.

We are educated and indoctrinated to see violence as somehow Bad… but it’s just a tool.
Some lie, some cheat .. and this is somehow meant to be less bad… steal £500M through cheating and lying and you get told off or at worst a suspended sentence or sent to a white collar facility.

Why does someone steal £500M ? Because they can and they think they can get away with it.

We are educated and indoctrinated to see violence as somehow Bad… but it’s just a tool.

So, it’s OK for me to come and beat the shit out of you until you do what I say? Dude…That attitude is seriously **** up.

as long as its ‘good’ violence….

So, it’s OK for me to come and beat the shit out of you until you do what I say? Dude…That attitude is seriously **** up.

How do you get to that conclusion?

My point is how is that better or worse than you scamming me for my life’s savings?

On the other hand if you did come over to beat the shit out of me are you suggesting I just let you do it or perhaps I should pay you to go away instead of resorting to violence? I’m sure you won’t come back… honest if I pay you.

5 years ago i would have been scuffling with them lads regardless. No way would i put up with someone acting like that near me. But i have changed over the last few years. It all boils down to one sentence which eventually made me draw a line and stop caring.

Who do you think you are?

Argument with blokes either ends up in fighting or who do you think you are?
Argument with women always ends up with who do you think you are.
Argument with kids always ends up with who do you think you are.

Eventually i looked at myself and the incidents and realized that i was doing it to try to make someone else’s life easier. Blocking pavements with stupid parking, i was trying to help mothers with prams, kids near roads, wheelchair users. I ended up with a bunch of mothers screaming at me WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?? Mothers stood there with pushchairs…….

I have pulled up plenty of people about letting their dogs shit everywhere. Its always Who do you think you are.

Now i just don’t give a toss. Joe public, and i include myself and every one of you in this is full of contradictions which have lead me to one conclusion. We get what we deserve. Whether its covid, brexit, politics, anti social behavior, riots there never can be a winner. You will interpret everything to suit your own purpose. imagine being a police officer these days, it must be the most confusing time in history to want to serve and protect.

Anyhow, i must admit my life has been easier these days. I don’t give much of a care about what’s going on around me and i havent had an argument in a few years. I must admit to pangs of guilt watching some scallys smashing drink bottles on the local dog walking path the other night. In the past i would have challenged them and possible had a bit of a scuffle. Instead i went home and told my family to adjust their dogs walks for the next few days to avoid the path so our dogs didnt get hurt. Who do i think i am to challenged these scallys anyhow? All those owners who walk their dogs, well who am i to them?

Its a shame. One of the things that made me most proud of my father (Ex forces and prison service) was that he was the guy who would happily throttle the local scallys if they stepped out of line. He was the guy who would arrange football and cricket for everyone to join in and the scallys actually respected him. The fact he was built like a brick shithouse, could make me piss my pants just by shouting and had a temper seemed to make him popular with these lads. I remember being at a party once where it kicked off. 18yr olds fighting, police called, drink and bottles smashed everywhere. It was wild. My dad heard about, knew i was there and walked up to the building. A bottle was thrown at him by someone and then they realized who it was. I swear on my life someone shouted out **** that Mr thelittlesthobo!!! The whole place stopped in its tracks. He had the place cleared out before the police turned up and no one got into trouble. These days he would either be stabbed or prosecuted.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-72-year-old-great-grandmotherrecovers-stolen-bike-and-fights-off-thief.html#:~:text=A%2072%2Dyear%2Dold%20woman,bikes%20in%20the%20local%20area.

How many years should this granny get for assaulting the bike thief?

How do you get to that conclusion?

Really? in your post you say “it’s just a tool” so why is it not OK to use it? I’m struggling to think how else to interpret “It’s just a tool”

My point is how is that better or worse than you scamming me for my life’s savings?

No one has said violence and fraud are equivalent, apart from you.

How many years should this granny get for assaulting the bike thief?

Probably none, as reasonable force was used and is legally allowed?

TheLittlestHobo

Exactly… very close to what I wrote on the local FB the other day.
A bunch of youths have set up shop on the school/youth sportified pavilion and the place is littered with needles and residents getting abuse.

Now i just don’t give a toss. Joe public, and i include myself and every one of you in this is full of contradictions which have lead me to one conclusion. We get what we deserve.

Yep, my answer was why should I get involved my kid doesn’t play football and you’ve done this to yourselves by tolerating their antisocial behaviour when they intimidate someone at the shop round the corner or push people around and noone stands up to them.

One of my female friends pinged me after with a wink ikon… as last year her sons bike was stolen and I went with her husband and son to recover it from the ebay lister.

Quite happy to do that as they are willing to stand up for themselves and not involve the police. (Well the police dis-involved themselves)
No violence was needed, just 3 blokes saying we’ve come to collect his bike now hand it over.

No violence was needed, just 3 blokes saying we’ve come to collect his bike now hand it over.

What if there’d been 6 bigger blokes, waiting for them?