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  • Violence against women – solutions?
  • p7eaven
    Free Member

    *edit

    the (thread) title is a little misleading

    What I mean to say is that ‘violence’ is widely defined between individuals and between locations. And also ‘domestic vs non-domestic’

    For instance, if you were to live in Arizona, US, ‘domestic violence’ may for legal purposes mean something different than in the UK.

    domestic violence most often refers to nonphysical violence or incidents that do not cause bodily injuries. Domestic abuse, on the other hand, would more likely meet the state’s definitions of assault or battery.

    https://www.az-defenders.com/difference-between-domestic-violence-and-abuse/

    I find that interesting, especially as it is the reverse of stevextc seemingly conflating my use/definition of the term ‘abuse’ to mean ‘something that should only cause annoyance/be annoying’

    Definitions and context help.

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    Of course all deaths are tragic, we know this (and it’s absurd to imply otherwise tbh), but you’re missing the point. These are different problems with different contexts. I get what you’re saying, but there’s more too it than just the stats.

    That BLM parallel doesn’t make much sense because, in analogy, women are not being killed disproportionately.

    What exactly is there ‘more to it’ than beyond the stats?

    The very idea of elevating ‘femicide’ as a special crime seems to frame women as a privileged group.

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    ^ I don’t think a female being killed because she was a female is especially ‘privileged’, do you?

    *edit one may prefer the term ‘gendercide’. There are grievances that females have a ‘special’ classification.

    rainper
    Free Member

    Has anyone here read much about the SNP hate crime bill (and the controversy surrounding it)?

    The bill did not extend the same protections to women as it did to other groups.

    johnjn2000
    Full Member

    After reading 5 pages of this thread last night I have been pondering the various points of view. I am ashamed to say that I have been found wanting when it comes to the expected standards of male behaviour discussed. So with this in mind I had a conversation with my wife and 16yr old daughter (seperatley) about the subject.
    Before I go into their view I just want to make sure that when I say i was found wanting, I am talking checking out a person who is my type, not anything more sinister.
    Anyway, my wife’s comments, and Pilot I would be interested in your view as you make very reasoned comments:
    “Why have we got to a place in the world where everything has to be horrible” “Imagine if someone was walking down the street and someone wolf whistled at them, that was it, a whistle. Rather than going down a thought pattern of what a hideous person that was, maybe the recipient might choose to think that the person was just in a good mood and wanted to share some of that good mood by complimenting someone” I tried to intervene at this point but my wife was on a roll ” And then the recipient of the whistle might have had a bit of a shit day but be able to take a small positive that someone paid them a compliment” My response was to say that I am pretty sure that any wolf whistle was not without lust/desire/malintent My wife’s response was “But what if it was, what if that person was just happy and was loving life, what if the recipient just chose to laugh and take a compliment, does everything have to be horrid, sordid, gross, evil”
    We went over other stuff as well, we were in agreement that the world has gone to shit, and how have we got to a point where someone can’t walk down a road and feel safe. At this point let me divert to the same conversation with my 16yr old daughter.

    Me “You have seen the media and discussion around safety of woman recently yes?” Daughter “Yes, suppose so” Me “Why do you think there is an issue, do you feel safe?” Daughter “No I don’t feel safe” Me “So if a man was walking behind you on a pavement you wouldn’t feel safe” Daughter “No, weirdo, he might kill me” Me “Why would you think that” Daughter “Well you see it all the time in the news” Me “But you know that the likelihood of that person being dangerous is low don’t you?” Daughter “Yes but it is still a likelihood dad, some weird old person staring at me” Me “Why old? Couldn’t it be anyone?” daughter “Well yes but it’s always old weirdos you see in the news” Me “So if I was the weirdo would it be better if I crossed over the road to pass you rather than stay behind you” Daughter “But you’re not a weirdo, you wouldn’t scare or hurt anyone” Me ” I am a weirdo to anyone else aren’t I, it’s just that you know me” Daughter “I suppose, but not everyone is like you, there are dangerous men out there” Me “You say men, wouldn’t you be freaked by a woman following you?” Daughter “Well yes, but only if it was one of those drug addict types with no teeth” Me “WTF? There is a reason they are in the position they are in and might need help not being treated like a danger” The conversation took an off topic turn at this point to me trying to educate that you don’t judge, you just don’t.

    This is the longest post ever, sorry. I just found it amazing that the two females in my life had such a different view on the topic. One wanted to just see the best in everyone and the other was totally on board with all men (apart from me) were a threat.

    Discuss

    stevextc
    Free Member

    Is what I wrote. Nothing about feeling uncomfortable/annoyed’, not sure where you got that from my post.

    Sorry, not intentional

    I mentioned abuse and harrassment for clarification/the purpose of the thread, ie the title is a little misleading so the subject has widened. Inevitable, it’s a spectrum of behaviours after all. And the discussion has widened. It’s interesting to view what some consider ‘annoying’, others may lose sleep, or lose/move job/home.

    Yes, I lose sleep over lying on my tax return because it won’t accept pence on the interest earned.
    I quit jobs because I lose sleep over lying to clients …
    Other people think lying on a tax return to the nearest million is perfectly acceptable and lying to clients is normal.

    I’m currently editing a document for a client and lying to cover up their mistakes, it makes me want to vomit but unless I submit to the bullying I won’t get paid.

    If you believe that in all cases/for all genders that abuse is simply ‘annoying’ and/or discomfiting then that’s possibly ‘OK’ for you, but maybe not so OK for others.

    It’s what you make it.

    Reading your posts in this thread it’s almost like you’ve ‘normalised’ (in your mind) both violent and abusive behaviours simply because you view them as ‘normal’ even though you also seem to say you are ‘adverse’ to violence?

    100,000 years of history and pre-history seems to indicate they are normal.
    I take people as I find them, you might like to think Boris doesn’t like lying .. I don’t believe he actually knows what the truth is… you could lock him up for 20 years and he wouldn’t understand, it’s the way he’s wired. “I was just saying what people wanted me to say” … which is perhaps his definition of “truth”.

    in the same way the only language some people understand is violence … you can’t change that you just have to beat the shit out of them. Stick them in prison and they will simply continue violence and intimidation.
    Modern philosophy/theology or whatever they call it (seems more like a religion to me) seems to think you can change a cat into a domestic animal or the scorpion riding the frog across the river into something else .. re-educate .. or whatever…

    I'm a scorpion

    You can’t, if you find a scorpion just crush it… or everyone around will get hurt or just accept it’s a scorpion and needs to be treated differently and won’t want to cuddle up like a dog.

    Case in point. I’ve rarely wanted to ‘beat the shit’ out of someone for pulling out on me. Someone wrecked (dented passenger door, insurance write off) my old favourite car by doing just that. Claimed they hadn’t seen me. Should they expect me to (or should I want to?) ‘beat the shit out of them’? Do you want to beat the shit out of all kinds of people or just blokes? Do you expect blokes to beat the shit out of you? For pulling in front of them at a supermarket? For looking at their beer funny?

    I don’t want to beat the shit out of them, I’d be in court charged with GBH or a criminal record. Anything else is irrelevant in the same way I don’t hate scorpions or camel spiders but when I found them in the house I’d kill them.

    This is what they are relying on … no-one will say or do anything because they can’t.

    I went back to the supermarket anyway .. police car pulled up outside on the double yellows, police woman buying something … same shit.. “I dare you to say anything”.
    Obviously I can’t or she’ll smash a headlight or something then do me for it… pure bullying. No different to the blokes on the scaffold.

    kerley
    Free Member

    100,000 years of history and pre-history seems to indicate they are normal.

    You realise things can and have changed massively during that time don’t you?

    Just look back even a few hundred years and see what things were acceptable which today are seen by 99% of people as barbaric and unacceptable. We are constantly evolving.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    100,000 years of history and pre-history seems to indicate they are normal.

    Like every complex behaviour there’s a normal distribution, pacifist lovers like me at one end and violent nutters at the other. Some of the variation is genetic, some influenced by society. We can shift the the curve one way or the other by changing society, we will always have the extremes but we can move the average significantly and make the place less violent.

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    I don’t want to beat the shit out of them, I’d be in court charged with GBH or a criminal record.

    Rather than because you don’t immediately wish to cause them intense physical harm for having ‘wronged’ you?

    in the same way the only language some people understand is violence … you can’t change that you just have to beat the shit out of them. Stick them in prison and they will simply continue violence and intimidation.
    Modern philosophy/theology or whatever they call it (seems more like a religion to me) seems to think you can change a cat into a domestic animal or the scorpion riding the frog across the river into something else .. re-educate .. or whatever

    You don’t see here that you’re completing a circle of dehumanisation? An understanding of basic psychology should be enough to clue you in to the fact that not all violent people were ‘born a scorpion’ (or whatever poisonous, thoughtless inhuman thing you can think of)

    Of course there are a percentage of people who are quite literally psychopathic and/or have NPD, yet aren’t some (many?) simply perpetuating a cycle of violence because that’s how they were taught to express their frustrations? Or because they learned those attitudes and ‘values’? Let’s say you were managing this group:

    Are they humans to you, or some other kind of animal?

    100,000 years of history and pre-history seems to indicate they are normal.

    If that were true then every ‘normal’ society would look more like a bloodbath rather than people going shopping, doing gardening or holding support meetings?

    Violence/abuse is surely no longer ‘normal’ in our world and shouldn’t be tolerated or taught as ‘normal’?

    From a recent study:

    The more children are exposed to violence, the more they think it’s normal, according to a study in the current Social Psychological and Personality Science (published by SAGE). Unfortunately, the more they think violence is normal, the more likely they are to engage in aggression against others.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110329095742.htm

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    I don’t think a female being killed because she was a female is especially ‘privileged’, do you?

    You’re playing with words there, and anyway, that would describe a particular kind of murder not the general murder of women which these activists seem to want to privilege.

    rainper
    Free Member

    You’re playing with words there, and anyway, that would describe a particular kind of murder not the general murder of women which these activists seem to want to privilege.

    Genuine question, which ‘activists’ are you referring to?

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    You’re playing with words there

    No, the word ‘femicide’ isn’t so defined to confer ‘privilege’.

    What did you think it meant?

    malv173
    Full Member

    This article covers a few issues raised throughout this thread:

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/mar/20/we-always-speak-of-womens-safety-lets-talk-about-male-violence-instead

    How, as in the title, men aren’t mentioned in the reporting. Male violence against compared with violence against. I’m sure this wasn’t intentional on the part of the OP, but the language used in any discussion is important.

    How rapists often don’t commit other crimes, and convicted rapists are often jailed for non-sexual crimes.

    I’m sure most of us have seen the news of the officer spared jail after assaulting a woman and part of the argument against community service was something along the lines of ‘he wouldn’t be safe working alongside criminals.’ I mean, apart from the fact that he IS a criminal, how are women going to take any confidence that the system is there to protect them?

    Lots of dismissive arguments that it’s not fear based on fact, rather based on perception. As if it’s OK for women to perceive a danger to themselves because they aren’t statistically in as much risk as they feel. Totally devoid of compassion and empathy.

    We need to stop normalising violence, improve the language we use when discussing problems in society, stop dismissing others because you have experienced something and feel a particular way, and try and develop a more compassionate/ empathetic mindset.

    rainper
    Free Member

    I’m sure most of us have seen the news of the officer spared jail after assaulting a woman and part of the argument against community service was something along the lines of ‘he wouldn’t be safe working alongside criminals.’ I mean, apart from the fact that he IS a criminal, how are women going to take any confidence that the system is there to protect them?

    For anyone who hasn’t heard, this is case involving PC Oliver Banfield. He received a curfew and his victim got £500 compensation. I’ve just watched her interviewed on C4 news. Police did everything they could to dismiss her report, and it was only taken forward when CCTV footage (with sound) came to light.
    His victim will probably carry this with her for the rest of her life She must have been terrified.

    stevextc
    Free Member

    I don’t want to beat the shit out of them, I’d be in court charged with GBH or a criminal record.

    Rather than because you don’t immediately wish to cause them intense physical harm for having ‘wronged’ you?

    No, I’d beat the shit out of them because it is the only language they understand.
    There just isn’t any point trying to communicate in a language someone doesn’t understand and it’s pointless because they will turn to violence or not anyway.

    Bullies almost always want to avoid violence towards them … they are shit scared but it is the only language they understand.

    You don’t see here that you’re completing a circle of dehumanisation?

    I rather the the opposite. Humans are violent, we along with rats and ants fight wars.

    Violence/abuse is surely no longer ‘normal’ in our world and shouldn’t be tolerated or taught as ‘normal’?

    Why are you conflating violence and abuse?
    I was “abused” by the police woman… she used her position and ability to plant drugs or a weapon or break a light to prevent a civilised conversation. I see absolutely no difference between that an the ex policeman Geoff Capes standing over me and saying say anything and I’ll beat you to a pulp. (Except that’s not the sort of thing I think Geoff Capes would have done or said)

    What is it about violence that you think is inherently bad?

    Perhaps look at it this way … what is so civilised about lying to parliament and noone being able to say you are lying or being able to do anything about it?
    This happens EVERY week… Boris straight out lies… everyone knows he’s lying but no-one can actually do anything about it. They can’t even call him out for lying… rather they have to lie by omission and say “The right honourable gentleman is mistaken” … when they mean he’s flat out lying. He even ignored the speakers request to issue a correction to his error… my perception is this is the very antithesis of civilized behaviour.

    Boris is doing what the police woman did .. basically I’ll do wtf I want and YOU can’t do anything about it.

    The more children are exposed to violence, the more they think it’s normal, according to a study in the current Social Psychological and Personality Science (published by SAGE). Unfortunately, the more they think violence is normal, the more likely they are to engage in aggression against others.

    Yes another bullshit misuse of conflating aggression and violence.

    Are they humans to you, or some other kind of animal?

    This is a very scary dehumanisation “when someone shouts at me I respond by squaring my shoulders and looking them in the eye”

    wtf is wrong with that? what are they meant to do … say yes sir/no mam just please continue your aggressive verbal assault on me because you have power over me and by doing that you gave them power over you.

    This is the same bullshit my child got taught at school. If someone hits you you are not meant to respond.. at what bloody point ?? when they are kicking you in the head? when two of their mates are holding you on the floor and afterwards assuming you are still conscious you go find a teacher who will then tell you to F-off because they don’t want to be involved in something they have no way to address??

    Why should someone have to put up with that instead of just kicking the shit out of them or when they see them kicking the shit out of one of their friends?

    This isn’t the teachers fault, there is simply no way they can do anything to stop this.
    The 12yr old in question knows this… he can’t even get detention he will just walk out and noone can stop him… they can talk to his parents again (who will respond as normal) yet a couple of punches to the face and not even a broken nose solved this permanently… not only for my kid but the whole year.

    malv173

    We need to stop normalising violence

    No we don’t we need to do the opposite and make violence a perfectly acceptable response.

    Boris wrote a ministerial code…. one he flagrantly breaks because there are no consequences to breaking it.
    IMHO an amendment that says should the PM lie the leader of the opposition is allowed to beat the shit out of them would result in a far more civilised house of commons.

    To translate this to daily life… when someone just pushes in from of you in the supermarket queue what do you do?
    The truth is there is NOTHING you can do except perhaps ask the person on the checkout not to serve them… and they know that.

    A bike related example:

    There is NOTHING the supermarket can do… and they know it!

    Bunnyhop
    Full Member

    Apologies as I haven’t read the thread.
    Yesterday a friend who runs a local shop was re-dressing her window. Her daughter was putting up stickers: ‘Women should feel safe everywhere’ and #She was just walking home.
    Youths passing at the time shouted and called the young woman a c**t and told her to **** off.
    This is the kind of thing that may lead (in these young men) to violence and need I say anymore. Disgusting.

    BillMC
    Full Member

    I worked in a mixed school where they girls-only classes and sessions. Potentially very useful for discussing issues and strategies and putting them into practice in a mixed environment.

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    No, the word ‘femicide’ isn’t so defined to confer ‘privilege’.

    What did you think it meant?

    That isn’t what I said or meant.

    Privilege is belonging to a group where the murder of in-group members is framed as worse than the murder of out-group members.

    Feminism used to be about formal equality now seems to have become a special interest group.

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    Totally devoid of compassion and empathy.

    What about policy changes? Isn’t this what they actually want?

    pondo
    Full Member

    That isn’t what I said or meant.

    Privilege is belonging to a group where the murder of in-group members is framed as worse than the murder of out-group members.

    That’s not much of a **** privilege, is it.

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    @i_scoff_cake

    I get what privileged means, but I wanted to know what you think ‘femicide’ means? You brought the word up. Is it the word you object to, or the (legal) definition and (legal) usage of it? Or are you claiming that the word has been co-opted to mean something else? As I say, some people prefer ‘gendercide’?

    pondo
    Full Member

    What about policy changes? Isn’t this what they actually want?

    Current policies need to be enforced.

    I don’t think you have any intention of discussing this in good faith.

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    but I wanted to know what you think ‘femicide’ means? You brought the word up. Is it the word you object to, or the (legal) definition if it? Or are you claiming that the word has been co-opted to mean something else? As I say, some people prefer ‘gendercide’?

    Why do you want to know that except to whittle on some pedantic definitional point?

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    I don’t think you have any intention of discussing this in good faith.

    Would you demand empathy and sympathy for anti-vaxxers exploiting the handful of blood clots associated with some covid vaccines?

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    Why do you want to know that

    Because I don’t wish to put words/definitions/context in your mouth. So we may discuss in good faith. So that I may understand what it is that you’re saying. For the purpose of furthering discussion? Etc.

    except to whittle on some pedantic definitional point?

    ^ Not like this, for instance. Hence why I asked a very specific question. I still have no idea what your definition of ‘femicide’ is, compared to the legal definition. They may be the same, they may not! Hence I don’t know if it’s the actual definitive word ‘femicide’ that you object to, or if you are objecting to some other evolving (non-legal/legal?) definition of it, (ie something I’m unaware of, and hoping to understand if so)

    pondo
    Full Member

    I don’t think you have any intention of discussing this in good faith.

    Would you demand empathy and sympathy for anti-vaxxers exploiting the handful of blood clots associated with some covid vaccines?

    QED.

    idiotdogbrain
    Free Member

    @stevextc – some of your attitudes and opinions of and towards violence on this thread are very worrying, I have to say. As in, needing-professional-help level of worrying.

    You say that violence needs to be normalised because it’s the only language some people understand. Did you stop to think why that might be? It’s because people like you, a generation before, taught them that violence was the only option. All it does is push it on down the line.

    To be honest, I don’t know why I’m bothering – you genuinely don’t want to understand the issue and won’t take on board that there might be a better path out of this than “might is right”. Isn’t it about time we tried to be better?

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    Art thou officer?
    Or art thou base, common and popular?

    stevextc
    Free Member

    @stevextc – some of your attitudes and opinions of and towards violence on this thread are very worrying, I have to say. As in, needing-professional-help level of worrying.

    I don’t know why I’m bothering (joke) but you need to examine your beliefs and indoctrination.
    What is it makes you believe that violence is intrinsically bad/wrong ?

    You say that violence needs to be normalised because it’s the only language some people understand. Did you stop to think why that might be? It’s because people like you, a generation before, taught them that violence was the only option. All it does is push it on down the line.

    I haven’t said violence is the only option?
    I’m simply saying it is a valid option and it’s de-normalisation leads to a less civilised society.

    You can speculate as to “Why” for some people it’s the preferred option all you like but its irrelevant in context. The fact is if someone doesn’t speak (say) Spanish then speaking to them in Spanish in a kind considerate way won’t help talking to them in a language they understand will stand a better chance.

    The real reason is because it gets them what they want…and it works because people don’t stand up to them.
    The less people stand-up to them the more they get what they want without consequence.

    What all this basically comes down to is the “so what are you going to do about it” … whether that is violence or not. The two are the same.

    A direct example … just try an explain why one of these is bad and the other acceptable or why one is worse.

    Take the parking on double yellows .. if the police woman say’s “say anything and I’ll plant drugs in your van” how is that intrinsically better than “I’ll beat the shit out of you”?? Personally I much prefer the 2nd one for multiple reasons… from “really, in front of the supermarket cameras” to the consequences… one I might spend a few hours/days/weeks in hospital .. the other I’m unemployable.

    Their is no defence against having a weapon or drugs planted or simply sharing your registration with friends to stop you every time they see you.

    Why do people openly jump the queue in the supermarket – it’s a very simple answer.
    Because they want to and no-one can stop them.
    Some guy pushes in front of you at the checkout … what are your options?
    You don’t have any …

    You can try and talk to them … they will just ignore you or threaten you they fully expected this when they just pushed in and everyone else saw them push in .. but noone will say or do anything because there is nothing you can legally do except appeal to a better nature they don’t have.

    When they laugh in your face and say “yes I pushed in, what are you going to do about it” that’s it.. they pushed in, there is NOTHING you can do and they know it.

    I don’t know what world you live in but do you really think empathising with some thug beating you round the head with a baseball bat is going to get them to stop? How do you start the conversation ? THUD .. did you have a bad childhood ? THUD … can we talk about it? THUD

    If you come across an old man being mugged in a subway do you reason with the mugger or ask about their childhood? or perhaps you just pretend you saw nothing and walk in the other direction?

    To be honest, I don’t know why I’m bothering – you genuinely don’t want to understand the issue and won’t take on board that there might be a better path out of this than “might is right”. Isn’t it about time we tried to be better?

    To take my recent real life example how do I stop someone stealing from my drive in front of me?
    I start off asking them to stop … one of them simply comes up to intimidate me whilst the other carries on?

    What would you have me do?
    Let them take it?
    Pay them to leave?
    Ask if they are doing this because they had a bad childhood?

    stevextc
    Free Member

    molgrips

    @stevextc you are really not getting it at all.

    Violence against men comes from certain situations. You may think it’s normal to get into fights and have been stabbed a few times, but it really isn’t. And it’s not that hard to avoid as you say, you can avoid that estate or avoid that end of town on a Saturday night.

    But for women, violence, indimidation and abusive behaviour is everywhere. It could be at work, on a bus, in any social sitaution. We’re not talking about rape and murder, we’re talking about behaviour that puts women in fear.

    I don’t even know what your point is. Are you saying it’s fine and there’s nothing to worry about? Or are you saying that men have it just as bad? Because we really really don’t. You need to really listen instead of reaching for the ‘but what about meee?’ card. The fact that you are refusing to really listen and understand is in itself sexist.

    Let me explain that differently.
    The overwhelming threat to FEMALES is within the home … this threat increases dramatically, especially at the serious end of bring killed and put into a suitcase in certain sectors of the UK population but we are not allowed to discuss that.

    The actual chance of being attacked by a male stranger is very small. The chance that is a serving officer even smaller but it makes good media.

    Someone else was saying women have a right to be scared if they want regardless of the statistics (sic) … and they and indeed everyone else does, along with mice or spiders or ghosts..

    The reality is that deaths and serious injury by mice attacks are vanishingly small, ironically probably excepting the accidents that happen avoiding the mouse.
    It’s not impossible a mouse could carry a nasty pathogen but fear of all mice is irrational.

    I remember as a small child we used to sleep in a old morgue (local to STW HQ) where I had an irrational fear of ghosts. It probably wasn’t helped by the late night ghost stories … but the point is ghosts don’t exist.. the witches were just persecuted women a majority actually healers but belief made this “bad”.
    Look into the tragic story of Jennet Device …
    What is most tragic is we still don’t learnt he lessons…
    Politically motivated commentators have tried to explain her testimony against her own family as evidence for abuse by her family… whilst totally ignoring the fact she was threatened with being hung or drowned unless she testified.

    Anyway, the point of that is that of course people may chose to be scared of anything they like.. but I don’t think/believe going along with it is the correct option.

    Lets instead worry about honour killings and FGM a much more real threat.

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    stevextc, quite a lot of strawman/strawbat arguments to ignore there from the off* But I’m a sucker for discussion.

    *And here’s possibly another one:

    Are you saying that a policewoman parking on double yellows warrants you physically ‘beating the shit out of her?’ Because she abused her position/power to get a sandwich?

    You’re probably going to ask what would I do if a police car was parked on double yellows for the police lady to go to the supermarket and grab a sandwich. The answer is nothing. Nothing at all. In the grand scheme of things. Do you go around filming people who park on double yellows without a blue badge? Maybe that would help? Or should you beat the shit out of them? In fact why not get your video skills up to scratch and film wrongdoings? It may help you stop the itch to visit bodily harm on them? What if they have a blue disability badge yet you see them walking and smiling? Drop-kick them? See how strawman arguments work?

    I detect your baseball bat scenario was some kind of rhetorical scorn/strawman (?)

    But it’s an interesting straw-man, as it gets propped up so often.

    If someone were to come at me with a baseball bat I run like fury. I was trained to some degree in self defence, de-escalation and immobilising from working in the mental health field. Baseball bats are taser-level issues. Running away is best.

    Of course, if I had a taser it would be easier.

    Would I empathise with someone swinging a baseball bat at me? Well, not right away, not right off the bat 🥁😃

    Depends doesn’t it? Would I later? Again, you tell me why (in your hypothetical scenario) why they’re swinging a baseball bat at me and I’ll answer if I ‘empathise’ with them or not. Unlikely. Again, you tell me why they did it?

    Assumedly though, YOU might empathise with them? Especially if I’d wronged them and they were simply trying to ‘beat the shit out of me’?

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    The actual chance of being attacked by a male stranger is very small. The chance that is a serving officer even smaller but it makes good media.

    Violence comes in many forms* Do you only count physical violence?

    *Edit Definitions vary

    raincloud
    Free Member

    Of course, if I had a taser it would be easier.

    Ironically you would taser someone though??

    stevextc
    Free Member

    p7eaven

    Violence comes in many forms. Do you only count physical violence?

    That’s kinda my answer to the question above.

    Are you saying that a policewoman parking on double yellows warrants you physically ‘beating the shit out of her?’ Because she abused her position/power to get a sandwich?

    No I’m saying she should lose her job and be prosecuted for putting people’s lives in danger … instantly, no pension, no discussion but that the person reporting her should be protected.

    There is absolutely no difference to me in if she beat someone up for no good reason or she parked irresponsibly and endangered lives for no good reason.
    The end result is the same.

    You’re probably going to ask what would I do if a police car was parked on double yellows for the police lady to go to the supermarket and grab a sandwich. The answer is nothing. Nothing at all. In the grand scheme of things. Do you go around filming people who park on double yellows without a blue badge? Maybe that would help?

    So she put peoples lives in danger for no reason other than no-one dare say anything or report her without fear of intimidation and in the vast scheme of things do you think that’s OK?

    In fact why not get your video skills up to scratch and film wrongdoings? It may help you stop the itch to visit bodily harm on them?

    Where or how do you come to the conclusion I have an itch to visit bodily harm on anyone?
    I’m simply prepared to use violence when it’s appropriate or safer.

    Of course, if I had a taser it would be easier.

    I’m intrigued, are you implying a taser is non violent?

    If someone were to come at me with a baseball bat I run like fury. I was trained to some degree in self defence, de-escalation and immobilising from working in the mental health field. Baseball bats are taser-level issues. Running away is best.

    Of course, if I had a taser it would be easier.

    Would I later empathise with someone swinging a baseball bat at me? Well, not right away, not off the bat. Depends doesn’t it?

    You (hypothetically) tell me why they’re swinging a baseball bat at me and I’ll answer if I ‘empathise’ with them or not.

    The usual reason, you didn’t want to give them your phone and wallet.

    stevextc
    Free Member

    raincloud

    Ironically you would taser someone though??

    Herein lies the irony …
    or would accept “an authority figure” tasering them but punching them in the face is somehow different?

    Or is threatening to taser them different ?

    I’m still waiting for what is the correct response to people stealing from me with menaces…

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    Ironically you would taser someone though??

    If I was legally issued with one then possibly.

    Even then if I could safely and surely run to safety/if the attacker wasn’t in a closed area/I wasn’t required to immobilise them on account of other people in the vicinity being targets.

    I was simply noting that the only real ‘easy’ way of disarming an attacker who has a baseball bat is from a distance. ie a taser (unlikely as they are only legal for law-enforcement or SO)

    I’m still waiting for what is the correct response to people stealing from me with menaces…

    If someone comes at you with a baseball bat to get your wallet then take my advice and run as fast and as far as possible – or risk dying by trying to disarm them/throw a rock at them etc, find a bigger stick and come back at them. Your choice. Either one is ‘correct’.

    This is becoming a sideshow so maybe open another thread about self-defence/reasonable force?

    To translate this to daily life… when someone just pushes in from of you in the supermarket queue what do you do?
    The truth is there is NOTHING you can do except perhaps ask the person on the checkout not to serve them… and they know that.

    Let me guess, er…’beat the shit out of them’? But you can’t, because the law is a big liberal ass. And that’s what’s wrong with modern life? We’d be civilised if physical violence was the normal response to any wrongs?

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    The usual reason, you didn’t want to give them your phone and wallet.

    Do you have statistics for that? Or are you guessing in order to support your argument?

    I am guessing (maybe wrongly, maybe to support my argument) that baseball bat crimes are most commonly by males/male gangs who believe that they are ‘righting wrongs’, ‘asserting themselves’, ie gang violence?

    stevextc
    Free Member

    This thread has now become your strawman argument about self-defence.

    It’s hardly a strawman, I’ve had several incidents in the last few weeks of people trying to steal from my drive and refusing to stop.

    The reason for this and other unpleasant behaviour mostly comes down to one thing. We have come to a point where these people can do what they want without redress because everyone is scared to do anything.

    We live in a world where a couple of people with Swiss Army knives can intimidate an aircraft full of people into dying and where a subset of society can do what they like without redress.

    This has pervaded society from kids riding wheelies through Asda to Boris habitually lying to parliament and even when everyone present knows he and can prove he is deliberately lying aren’t allowed to actually say so … and we call that “civilised”.

    It’s ALL the same thing … it’s a threat and a “what are you going to do about it ..nothing” be it “violence” or not.

    When we go back to a female being wolf whistled I am far more reluctant to become involved nowadays because if I do and it escalates to violence I will be the one in court.

    To take your Taser example … assuming you see a woman being wolf whistled are you willing to use one or any other form of “violence” if the situation escalates or will you run off and leave the woman or something else?

    To then extend that … the woman probably (almost certainly) wasn’t in any actual danger but what if this is one of those rare times where you think she is? Does that change your view?

    The real point here is by you as a male intervening with the dick who wolf whistled increases the chance that this will escalate to violence.. because the dick who thinks wolf whistling is OK is probably the same dick who will not back down and resort to violence against another male in front of his mates.

    If you view the bike theft video I posted you see this reluctance of them males to become involved. A decade or more ago I was on a bus where some youths were threatening some pensioners and noone would get involved. I did and removed the stolen umbrella with a wrist lock and told them to get the F-off the bus… the driver thanked me and then advised me to get off the bus as well as it was on video and I’d potentially end up being prosecuted. This wasn’t long after I returned to the UK where this had changed radically in the years I’d been away.

    This didn’t happen in my youth .. in my youth 4-5 people would have stood up to a couple of youths. They would have realistically expected to have a few people put them in their place but now most people and especially blokes are scared to do so.

    stevextc
    Free Member

    To translate this to daily life… when someone just pushes in from of you in the supermarket queue what do you do?
    The truth is there is NOTHING you can do except perhaps ask the person on the checkout not to serve them… and they know that.

    Let me guess, er…’beat the shit out of them’? But you can’t, because the law is a big liberal ass. And that’s what’s wrong with modern life? We’d be civilised if physical violence was the normal response to any wrongs?

    No you and others in the queue just make it clear their behaviour is unacceptable.

    because the law is a big liberal ass

    The application is a big ass… and it’s on the side of the people who want to act like dicks.
    If you even lay a hand on them to remove them from the queue them this sort of dick will have you up for assault or perhaps be waiting outside with the baseball bat.

    We’d be civilised if physical violence was the normal response to any wrongs?

    We’d be more civilised if the expectation of any sort of retort was expected.

    Did you watch the Brighton supermarket ?
    The supermarket can do what? Ask them to leave nicely?
    If they ignore it then there is absolutely nothing they can do to protect their customers.
    If they even try and stop them by grabbing the bars they will be up for assault…

    Don’t you think something went wrong?

    stevextc
    Free Member

    p7eaven

    Do you have statistics for that? Or are you guessing in order to support your argument?

    You might want to look for deeper meanings… why do people lie, steal, cheat or threaten people unless they hand over something they want.

    The simple answer is because they can and there is no recourse.

    To take my example from parliament … the PM can openly lie and nothing happens (he gets asked to correct and refuses) but the person who actually say’s he’s lying gets a very real punishment.

    Boris will and does deny what he said 10 mins previously – Ian Blackford gets castigated for calling him out when every person in the chamber knew he was bare faced lying.

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