Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 260 total)
  • Violence against women – solutions?
  • MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Well this has been an interesting read to catch up on. Thanks everyone, especially the ladies (is that even the appropriate word to use?) who have contributed

    When you take a longer term view it is quite surprising how much we’ve progressed in a relatively short space of time over things like page 3, gay rights, racism etc. There’s a long way to go,

    This gives me hope. The change may not be happening fast enough for the women affected, in the same way that the results of BLM may not come as quick as we would like, but the supertanker is turning.

    All the things women are citing about safety on the streets – arming themselves with keys, going a different/longer route home, appearing to be on the phone, changing direction to see if you are being followed, crossing the road to avoid someone who makes you feel uncomfortable, are all things I’ve done in british cities, and I’m a bloke.

    I’d love to know if I’m paranoid or other men are similarly uncomfortable.

    I’ve certainly done all of those things as a bloke. Yes, I’m prone to anxiety and catastrophising stuff, and I’ve wondered sometimes at how crazy I’ve been when I’ve taken chances when younger and drunk. But as a bloke, I don’t have to think about it every single time I go out.

    While I was out riding with a mate this morning we passed a young couple on one of the lanes. She was an attractive young lady, and dressed more for a night out on the town than a walk in the countryside in todays conditions. We both commented on that, and then had a conversation as to whether we’d crossed a line, and I don’t know the answer. Was that our primeval/70s male egos talking, or can two men have a private conversation between themselves about how an attractive woman they’ve seen is dressed? (At no point were we suggesting that we had any “intentions” towards her, I should add)

    sillysilly
    Full Member

    Most of you are discussing solutions that assume that all the bad people need is a stern talking to.

    This is not male vs female. It is predator vs those not in a position to defend themselves.

    No understanding that many in society are not even on the same planet as the average STW user when it comes to moral compass.

    To me it’s dangerous to bundle up the average male man child in with deranged psycho killers when discussing solutions to help those that can’t defend themselves. Both need dealing with. They are very different.

    Joe
    Free Member

    Whilst I sympathize and agree with the thrust of your argument, I find the plaintiff, meek and woke idea that because you are male or white or middle aged that you have “little knowledge” and “need to listen”.

    You must be aware of the problem. You must not walk around with your eyes closed. You must be able to understand how vulnerability and harassment may effect your behavior and outlook on the world.

    The story of violence of males towards females is as old as humanity I suspect. The problem is wider than gender based violence, it is that males are inherently aggressive, dominant and do things to others against their will. Men attack each other, and do far more unpleasant things than females.

    The fact that a majority of men are attracted to females, desire sexual gratification from them and are typically stronger/more aggressive than them means there will probably always be attacks on women by men.

    I’m not saying that nothing should be done, but I’m not sure what can be done.

    oakleymuppet
    Free Member

    To me it’s dangerous to bundle up the average male man child in with deranged psycho killers when discussing solutions to help those that can’t defend themselves. Both need dealing with. They are very different.

    Agreed.

    But I reckon there’s a huge overlap on the venn diagram of women hating self-proclaimed incels and alt-right racists. The same pattern of placing your locus of control outside oneself leads to both belief system – and I’d place good money that both subcultures lead to increased attacks on their targets of hate. This is what society needs to be taught, there needs to be mindfulness taught at a young age.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    There is a range of behaviour that leads to this feeling of impunity that some men have. so while a “lover not a fighter” like me can do little about the violent nutters I still can do a bit towards changing the tone that is set by casual misogyny by challenging it.

    So calling people out who cat call and comment and make women feel unsafe or uncomfortable is a help.

    oakleymuppet
    Free Member

    So calling people out who cat call and comment and make women feel unsafe or uncomfortable is a help.

    Agreed.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    deleted – quoting didnae work

    tjagain
    Full Member

    so stop doing it then.

    oakleymuppet
    Free Member

    TJ, you need to listen carefully here pal – just calling things out when you see it, won’t solve systemic society wide issues. There needs to be a deeper conversation about human violence.

    You’re confusing a misanthrope for a misogynist.

    reluctantjumper
    Full Member

    Hmmm…I think you are a bit off the mark there. As one of those sex starved men over last 12 months of lockdown I’m pretty sure I and others like me won’t be turning in to some sex crazed predator as soon as the pubs open. It’ll be as bad as it was before lockdown, but no worse imo

    I’m thinking more of the 18-25 year age groups. There certainly was a noticeable increase in pregnancies from one-night-stands after the first lockdown going by what friends were saying on top of the couples adding an extra to their households. I know the students went nuts round me when they could!

    petrieboy
    Free Member

    To me it’s dangerous to bundle up the average male man child in with deranged psycho killers when discussing solutions to help those that can’t defend themselves. Both need dealing with. They are very different.

    This is very much where my thinking has been over the past few days. The media have this habit of lumping everything in together so the news story is about one woman being killed but it gets lumped in with the stats for all women killed by men and of course the bulk of those cases are domestic.

    Both are clearly awful but they are very different and require different solutions. Lumping the stats together must surely just increase everyone’s fear of crime and doesn’t further the conversation about what we collectively do to make things better

    joeegg
    Free Member

    About 2 years ago I was out walking my dog along a nearby disused railway line which is popular with walkers. Coming the other way was a group of school kids and adults who had been on a nature trail of the nearby wetlands.
    My dog is really cute and friendly and 2 girls walked over to him.Suddenly one of the women in the group,only about 20 feet away,started screaming “don’t talk to strange men “.
    It was like a punch to the stomach. I felt guilty.Everyone turned around and looked at me.I cut my walk short and went straight home.

    ThePilot
    Free Member

    @joeegg I’ve had similar, not as bad as that, but again, cute, friendly dog, kids wanting to say hello, me chatting with them and suddenly a super suspicious adult appears. It’s horrible. I guess it’s understandable in some ways but it still strikes me as pretty paranoid behaviour.


    @BillMC
    I don’t care if that account about the dolphins and the pregnant woman was scientific or not, it’s totally believable to me. I swam with wild dolphins in NZ. It was magical, spiritual even. People were sat at the front of the boat chatting on the way home. I sat at the back with tears of pure emotion rolling down my face looking up at the albatross circling above. Not sure I’d do it again as I just worry our presence might have been bothering them. I really hope not but I wouldn’t want to take the chance again. Told a friend at the time. She was a person-you-invite-to-a-party friend, no more. She asked me did I hold their dorsal fin and let them tow me? I was a bit confused. Turns out she swam with dolphins in Seaworld Florida. She wasn’t even invited to parties after that.

    On the subject of violence against women, this was pre mass mobile phone ownership. The Seaworld girl told me she lived alone. I called her house (to invite her to a party probably) and the answerphone message said we are not at home. I asked her about it and she said it was for security. She didn’t want people knowing she lived alone.

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    Women are significantly at less risk of violence everywhere except in the home compared to men.

    Feelings seem to trump facts these days.

    swavis
    Full Member

    This has been a good thread. I too as a 40 odd year old white male have wondered what I can do to help the situation. The wife and and I have had a few conversations about it and also what we can do as parents to two young boys.
    I feel awful that women feel the way they do about walking home alone at night. I honestly wouldn’t feel comfortable walking about a city alone at night but the stories that are being brought to light are quite sobering.
    I guess not breaking rule #1 is a good start, it’s just trying to help others to do the same that is the hard part.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Women are significantly at less risk of violence everywhere except in the home compared to men.

    Feelings seem to trump facts these days.

    serious violence

    its also the cat calling, the groping etc and also the fear of this happening. Its not just about getting thumped or raped – its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    won’t solve systemic society wide issues

    Psychotic killers are not products of culture or ideology. There is an awful lot of half-baked nonsense currently being discussed around this issue.

    ThePilot
    Free Member

    @i_scoff_cake Black people are no longer at risk of being lynched in most places any more. It doesn’t mean racism doesn’t have an effect on their lives.

    Women are not at risk of being murdered, raped or beaten by men much of the time. Doesn’t mean the fear of violence doesn’t have an effect on their lives.

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour

    There is certainly a debate to be had about how much freedom we give up to reduce crime. You can’t have both a totally safe society and a free one.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    No – but you can have a free society where half the population does not live in justified fear.

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    Doesn’t mean the fear of violence doesn’t have an effect on their lives.

    When it comes to making laws or drafting policy we should distinguish between rational and irrational fears.

    ThePilot
    Free Member

    We’re not only talking about making laws or drafting policy though.

    supernova
    Full Member

    its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour

    There is certainly a debate to be had about how much freedom we give up to reduce crime. You can’t have both a totally safe society and a free one.

    Giving up offensive behaviour is not an infringement on your freedoms. Why can’t you have a safe society and a free one?

    chrismac
    Full Member

    Im confused by this whole debate. It is awful that this poor lady was murdered and I hope justice is properly carried out. I do struggle with the whole debate that this has triggered and how it is being painted as men bad, women good. The short answer is neither are perfect. Do men objectify women, yes they do sometimes, do women objectify men, yes they do sometimes. Does this get exploited by both genders, yes it does, whether its the diet coke man half naked to sell a few more cans of coke or someone on Instagram wearing the smallest bikini they can because likes drive revenue. To the perfume ads that seem to have the perfect versions of both genders in them to flog some smelly liquid. We are supposed to be attracted to each other, thats why we dress up and make ourselves look the best version of us and how we want to be seen when out and about.

    The real question is why do people feel vulnerable walking home late at night or whatever the scenario is. What is the perception that something will happen and what it the reality? Im sure there is a big gap between the 2. Which then begs the question, why is there a gap, what has caused it and what can be done to make that gap smaller. I think part of the reason for the gap is the media which focuses on the times it goes horribly wrong, and not the millions of times nothing happens. Im sure there are many many others from the naive misunderstanding to evil deliberate  action.

    ThePilot
    Free Member

    Nobody is suggesting that men are bad and women are good.
    Perhaps have another read through the thread before you post.
    The rest of what you say, I just don’t know where to start with. Sorry.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    its also the cat calling, the groping etc and also the fear of this happening. Its not just about getting thumped or raped – its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour

    It’s easy to look at the murder stats and ignore the constant “low level” stuff that possibly produces more of the feelings of fear, in the same way that low level racism is just as damaging as outright attacks.

    I hope that this tragedy sparks a debate and discussion in the same way that BLM did – I’ve been shocked at what non-white friends have described they have had to put up with when we’ve had conversations that we never had prior to BLM, and I suspect I’d feel the same if I spoke to female friends and colleagues about harassment. By talking I feel I’ve had my eyes opened and I’ve learned so much, and if there was more honest talk, maybe enough would learn that the problem becomes much less of an issue. But it won’t be a quick process.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    Sorry to everyone else for getting in a spat with this contemptible excuse for a human

    Just read this and oakleymuppet does not appear to be that in the least. But anyway.

    I hope that this tragedy sparks a debate and discussion in the same way that BLM did – I’ve been shocked at what non-white friends have described they have had to put up with when we’ve had conversations that we never had prior to BLM, and I suspect I’d feel the same if I spoke to female friends and colleagues about harassment.

    Well this is what #metoo was about. You can live your life in parts of the UK without getting to know any non-white people so you can be excused for not having first hand experience to listen to (although NOT excused for assuming there isn’t a problem) however I doubt you’ve lived your life without knowing any women. So the question is (without wishing to be accusatory), why didn’t you know about this problem already?

    My housemate once arranged a party and invited a lot of his mates, many of whom were computery geeks and not in the least bit threatening. Another housemate invited her friend who was really quite attractive to me as well as many of the other men present (we were mid 20s). I might’ve attempted to get to know this woman but then I noticed that the other men were basically crowding around her and falling over themselves to talk to her; and she looked mightily pissed off. So I didn’t get involved – because I realised that I did not have any right to impose myself on her, to force myself into her space.

    Now she wasn’t under any physical threat, but I have a feeling that when there is a threat it might come from the same place. Many years previously a group of us were getting a train home and some drunk bloke was trying to ingratiate himself with one of our female friends. There was no violence suggested, he was simply ‘trying to pull’ but what makes him feel entitled to even try to push himself on a woman?

    Finding sexual or romantic partners is a key aim for most people, obviously, and we seem to have a culture where men are expected to try to pull women. Perhaps this is where the sense of entitlement comes from which in turn rationalises the harassment, and possibly the resentment and misogyny that follows.

    ThePilot
    Free Member

    Not only that (what molgrips says above) but try watching an episode of First Dates on Ch 4. Men are almost always expected/want to pay for the meal. There’s nothing wrong with that as such. It’s an act of generosity but it’s also smacks of men taking the ‘little lady’ out for dinner because the ‘little lady’ doesn’t have access to her own money.
    Women expect to be paid for as much as men expect to pay. And like I say, on the surface, there’s nothing wrong with it. And I’m not criticising men for offering to pay or women for accepting.
    It just sets a tone. It suggest men have to buy women or at least their time. And when you buy something, you own it.
    Before anyone gets uptight, it’s not men’s fault. Neither is it womens. It is just something that needs to be addressed so there is a bit more equality in such matters.

    LAP13
    Free Member

    When it comes to making laws or drafting policy we should distinguish between rational and irrational fears.

    Just because you don’t happen to share the same fears or receive the same treatment, doesn’t make it irrational. It may be a low proportion or risk but that is a society building the fear and ultimately the behaviour and the expectation of women (and others) to mitigate that risk.

    Noone is suggesting changing the law based on a minority ‘feeling’

    As others have honestly stated above, it is not actually women only that suffer. I’m not actually articulate enough to explain how I’d like.

    I’m trying to be very careful with my wording as I absolutely do not believe it to be women good, man bad, not at all. In society it is actually primarily a woman’s problem – the expectation of altering behaviour, be careful in this situation or that – I’m very cautious and concerned that this will shift from being a woman’s problem to being a man’s when it isn’t – it is a sociatal one.

    funkmasterp
    Full Member

    Very interesting thread with a lot of good points raised. That anyone feels unsafe doing something as simple as walking from A to B is a horrible thing. I’ve no idea what the answer is to be honest.

    Calling behaviour out could be a good thing but I have a neat scar on my skull from doing so. I was walking home from a local pub in my youth and saw a man dragging a woman by the arm. She was crying, he was yelling. I attempted to intervene, the man got violent, I reciprocated. Running away wasn’t an option as I was genuinely worried for the lady. Next thing I know she’s removed a high heeled shoe and belted me in the back of the head with it. At least he wasn’t yelling and dragging her when they walked off.

    One of my ex work colleagues is a very attractive young lady and good friend. On nights out she used to get very fed up of blokes trying to chat her up. I spent lots of time politely asking men to leave her alone. I ended up having to have words with some of the warehouse staff too for basically hassling her. She just shouldn’t have to put up with that sort of thing.

    I walk quite a lot, to and from work, just to clear my head etc. I’ve never felt threatened or worried about where I’m walking. I have, however, altered my route or crossed over the road when I’ve seen people (men or women) looking a bit skittish. I’d hate to think anyone would view me as a threat but at the same time I’d not want to be responsible for causing somebody unnecessary stress.

    oakleymuppet
    Free Member

    Psychotic killers are not products of culture or ideology. There is an awful lot of half-baked nonsense currently being discussed around this issue.

    Very few murders of women are carried out by sociopathic men, the vast majority of them are carried out by emotionally unstable men.

    And psychotic means delusional.

    serious violence

    its also the cat calling, the groping etc and also the fear of this happening. Its not just about getting thumped or raped – its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour

    Huge +1

    It comes down to empathy doesn’t it, try to imagine walking in the shoes of someone who doesn’t feel as secure physically. The fact than men are the majority of the victims of violence doesn’t mean to say that womens feelings on the matter can be invalidated.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Feelings seem to trump facts these days.

    A major internet dating site did a poll  a while back (I forget which one it was) asked both men and women what their fears were on a first date. Men (and women for that matter) said a bunch of banal things that you’d expect; that their date would’t find them attractive, wouldn’t laugh at their jokes, and normal, all what you’d expect, except for one difference, lots of women also said I hope I don’t get injured, harmed, raped or murdered. No men said anything like that.

    These women weren’t hoping not to run into “Psychotic killers” they’re just hoping that the man she’s agreed to on a date with,doesn’t hurt her, and while the statistics may say that men suffer from violence from other men more than women, when you single in on sexual violence, the statistics are completely different.

    I read a statement today that essentially said “All men ‘benefit’ from violence against women, it reinforces the status quo of the expectancy of obedience, sex and power”.  It’s a depressing thought, no? If we really want to change things, then don’t exceptionalise it to “psychos” or other it to “monsters”.  The murder that sparked last nights vigil was a police officer who, as it turns out, had a partner…he wasn’t a monster, he’s just a sad bloke.

    I was sorry to read that some folk have been injured while protecting others or standing up, I’m willing to bet though, given the same circumstances, you’d do it again.

    bsims
    Free Member

    TJ and Oakley Muppet – I thinks it’s time for you to stop and think about your arguing. This is a good thread where people are sharing constructive views which will help to address the issues. The two of you are being aggressive in a way which highlights part of the issue in this thread. You both contribute thoughtfully and constructively elsewhere why not here.

    Several of the posts here have reminded to to conduct myself in an overtly non threatening fashion – such as crossing the street to help reduce fear, not because I am a threat but because a lone woman does not know that.

    20 years ago I would intervene if I saw or heard the low level abuse but now I have family to think about and with the state of some of the lunatics around I can’t risk me not being around. What a state society is in when we find it hard to look out for each other.

    As a middle aged man I can’t really add anything constructive except that myself and other men need to not take the measures suggested as a personal slight but a way of helping.

    oakleymuppet
    Free Member

    We appear to have stopped arguing. I agree with most of what TJ says – I just have a different view of humanity and the causes of violence to him.

    I have to issue with TJ as a person, I like his posts – he’s just got the wrong end of the stick about where my beliefs lie.

    He’s free to his opinions though I guess? My days of getting wound up with forum users are over.

    oakleymuppet
    Free Member

    I read a statement today that essentially said “All men ‘benefit’ from violence against women, it reinforces the status quo of the expectancy of obedience, sex and power”. It’s a depressing thought, no? If we really want to change things, then don’t exceptionalise it to “psychos” or other it to “monsters”.

    Yup. Spot on.

    doris5000
    Full Member

    another significant difference is I’ve never felt intimidated by a woman or even group of women when walking alone at night,

    Another thing to remember is, it’s not just *at night*.

    As a bloke, yes I too feel frightened walking through certain areas late at night, I bunch my keys in my fist (pointlessly, as I couldn’t punch my way out of a wet paper bag, but they’re big and it gives me a certain comfort), i’ve been beaten up for no reason.

    But

    I have (almost) never feared violence just in the course of a regular working day.

    My wife was harrassed *on her way to school*.

    Another time, somone assumed she was a prostitute and tried to get her into his car; she was 17, waiting at a bus-stop, mid-afternoon on a weekday (in jeans and a hoodie).

    In her 20’s she got punched in the face while working at a shop because she refused to give some bloke a refund.

    Recently, in her 40’s, in our local, and some guy tried to pay for her drinks. She politely declined, but he insisted, and she firmly declined, and he still insisted, and suddenly a nice afternoon in the pub is interrupted by the calculation: Is this about to turn nasty? He’s not taking my words on board. How do I get out of this?

    The threat of violence is present for her in a low-level way that it just isn’t for me. The kind of person who punches a 7 stone shop assistant out of petulance just would not punch someone the same size as them.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    I suppose consideration & respect are 2 things that men can do better on.

    If I’m being honest I wouldn’t really think im freaking out a woman of I was walking behind them at night, unless I was really close, I suppose that’s male priveledge ( 40 something white bloke again). but it’s something I really should (tho it’d be very rare that id be out on my own at night, my pub n club days are long over!)
    I am aware as a man I have it different, my female colleague, who also gets the same train journey as me, has to consider her route home, in a way that I don’t.
    Should I be offering to walk her home? (it’d be an extra hour on my commute)

    The other part I can think of is around respect, I have 3 young boys and a daughter and I really want to impress on them how important it is to respect others, particularly the boys regards women.

    At uni I wasn’t the best behaved (, nothing bad, just a laddish attitude it was the 90s Loaded, FHM etc I believe that did influence me at the time, I guess also growing up with page 3, carry on films etc & quite a sexist & racist grandfather didn’t help), in my group of mates. We were dicks, late night drinking in halls that certainly pissed off & probably intimidated the women in our halls. Nothing beyond that, but it’s something I’m not proud of now.
    (I met my now wife then & just discussing this with her she says I wasnt as bad as that)

    I’d really like my kids not to be like that though, so I think teaching them to respect others, especially women is key. I know I can’t insulate them from things like porn, but I can make sure they realise that it isn’t real and that in the real world its respecting others that’s important.

    Apropos of nothing : a colleague from california who moved to London, loved it that here she could wear hotpants in hot weather without being cat-called & wolf whistled the way she would have been routinely at home.

    malv173
    Full Member

    As a few people have said, there are some very good points raised here. It is definitely a topic that needs ongoing discussion.

    I’ve modified my behaviour when out walking for a few years. It followed a discussion with some friends where my wife and our female friends were talking about some advice offered to women as how not to be seen as a target for a rapist. We were all pretty disgusted with the victim-blaming approach. Our female friends suggested that men needed to know how not to be seen as a potential rapist given that rapists are almost exclusively men (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffencesinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017, see section 8 in particular). Wherever possible I try to give women space – cross the road, walk on the road where crossing isn’t possible, I take my hood down if I’m wearing one whenever I can, not following closely.

    The human nature argument is a pretty facile one. Most humans can exert self-restraint. The fact that misogyny isn’t a hate crime, the police failing many women in cases of sexual assault, the police perpetrating violence against women who were peacefully paying their respect to a woman who very likely died at the hands of an officer, the portrayal of women in society in general, the feeling of impunity when there are no consequences for your behaviour, aid violence against women at all levels.

    To quote Margaret Atwood: “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them; women are afraid that men will kill them.”

    oldmanmtb2
    Free Member

    Education and respect.

    Both almost absent in around 51% of the male population.

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    The tabloids dont help.

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